FeliciaM7
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FeliciaM7
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8:56 PM - Feb 05, 2010 #301

Ya never know about those "rash" decisions. Maybe that's how it appears now. Jack wasn't brought on the show to be the village idiot. He's making a difference somehow, though I doubt very many people will give him props even if he died saving Sawyer or something of the sort.
Jack killed Juliet, Sayid, the island, etc? Is anyone even thinking big picture here?

I give up. phantom, you can take the floor. ; )
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managerr
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10:13 PM - Feb 05, 2010 #302

He's making a difference somehow, though I doubt very many people will give him props even if he died saving Sawyer or something of the sort.
Probably not.  Sucks, isn't known for being the bastion of rationally hating or liking people!

I'm sure in the end, Jack will be proven right somehow. 
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lizzo1
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11:12 PM - Feb 05, 2010 #303

I was just talkin' about his motive.  Whether he saves the day or not has yet to be seen.  His motive for dropping the bomb was to try to get Kate back.  Of course he didn't forsee that Juliet and Sayid would die/almost die/die in this universe whatever.  But you can't deny that his motive was purely selfish.  I think I'm stating the obvious here?  I'm not hatin', I'm just sayin'!

Too bad V isn't on right now.
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FeliciaM7
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11:48 PM - Feb 05, 2010 #304

His motive for dropping the bomb was to try to get Kate back. 
No, it wasn't. His main reason was so all the people who had died would be alive again. All the hell they'd all been through wouldn't have happened. And as far as his motive with Kate- it's the opposite of what you said about Kate - he wouldn't know her if he uncrashed the plane. Remember "it wasn't all misery!"?

Jack said "enough of it was". He wasn't trying to get her back.
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FeliciaM7
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11:51 PM - Feb 05, 2010 #305

managerr wrote:
Sucks, isn't known for being the bastion of rationally hating or liking people! (ain't that the truth!)

I'm sure in the end, Jack will be proven right somehow. 
You can post this in the end and say SEEEEEEEEEEE, told y'all!! lol

  
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lizzo1
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12:49 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #306

[In the jungle.]

[Sawyer walks into a clearing, followed closely by Jack, then gestures down with one hand.]

SAWYER: Take a load off, Doc.

[Sawyer finds himself a seat but Jack doesn't follow suit.]

JACK: No thanks.

SAWYER: Sit down, Jack.

[After a moment of stubborn pause, Jack acquiesces.]

SAWYER: Folks' died when I was eight years old. I ever tell ya that?

JACK: (shakes his head) No.

SAWYER: Con man took my dad for everything he had. He didn't handle it too well, so... he shot my mom, then he blew his own head off. I was hidin' under the bed when it happened. I heard the whole thing.

JACK: I'm sorry.

SAWYER: Yeah. (pause) That was a year ago.

JACK: What?

SAWYER: Right now, it's July 1977. Which means that happened last year. So I coulda hopped on the sub, gone back to the States, walked right in my house... and stopped my daddy from killin' anybody.

JACK: Why didn't you?

SAWYER: 'Cause, Jack... what's done is done.

[Jack shakes his head in a negative response.]

JACK: It doesn't have to be that way.

SAWYER: What did you screw up so bad the first time around you're willin' to blow up a damn nuke just for a second chance?

JACK: That's not what this is about.

SAWYER: Then what is it about?

JACK: Three years ago, Locke told me, that all this was happening for a reason. That us being here was our destiny.

SAWYER: I don't speak destiny. What I do understand is a man does what he does 'cause he wants something for himself. (pause) What do you want, Jack?

[Jack looks down and away from Sawyer. After a long moment of consideration, he looks back at Sawyer and finally admits the truth.]

JACK: I had her. I had her... and I lost her.

SAWYER: Kate?

[Jack nods his agreement.]

SAWYER: Well, damn, Doc. (points in the direction they came from) She's standing right on the other side of those trees. You want her back, just go and ask her.

JACK: Naw, it's too late for that.

[Jack stands, thinking he is done with Sawyer.]

JACK: Your five minutes is up.


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tigeranne
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1:05 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #307

  all I know is that Jack is the hero.      if he isn't still the hero  by the end of the finale.... I'm gonna be pissed.

  LOST has pissed me off plenty of times-- John Locke's turning out to be the Village Idiot (hi Felicia!) being the biggest time.
Daniel's death at the hands of his own mother a  very close second.     Libby dying before we ever got the interesting back
story that I just know she had... 

 however,  through all of this,  MY constant has been Jack.   I always know that he's the hero.   I've never  NEVER doubted
that for one second since day one.  Never.      I never believed he had "joined the Others".    I have been angry at him--thought
he was a doofus a few times, etc.   BUT- he has always been the one I would trust with my life on craphole island.

   I know that he could die before this is all over (many heroes have/do).... but he must remain  the good guy or LOST is ruined for me.

   what was the subject?  I got distracted, I think.

 oh yeah.    I can see the argument that it's all Jack's fault that Juliet died.   however,  Juliet made the decision to leave the
sub and come back.    so,  it's kinda her own fault....  sorta.    Maybe a little.   

edited to fix a typo.
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lizzo1
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1:44 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #308

I don't blame Jack for Juliet's death.  I just said his motive for dropping the bomb was to get Kate back.  That was his motive.  He says so to Sawyer in the above conversation.  I didn't make it up.  You may call him a hero, or JackAss, it doesn't really matter.  Most of the main characters here are very selfish.  Like most humans.  Like Sawyer says, a man does somethin' cos he wants somethin' for himself.  I like Destiny Jack better than Leader Jack, but it doesn't make him a better person.  Just different.  And more interesting.
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pussycow
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2:14 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #309

Despite the conversation above, I don't think Jack did it to get Kate back. That just wouldn't make sense since they wouldn't know each other. At most, it could be a Juliet type situation where if he never meets Kate, he never has to lose her. So while Kate was probably part of his motive, I think his greater motive was to "fix" everything. 'Member? He's a fixer.


As for the island sinking, I believe Jack and/or the Losties presence on the island saved the island from sinking, be it through the bomb or something else (the bomb seems most likely). That was my first thought when I saw the island under water in Sideways World where the plane never crashed, and completely intact in Original Recipe Island World.
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FeliciaM7
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2:16 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #310

Original Recipe World heh
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stink
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4:46 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #311

I wouldn't blame Jack for Juliet's death.  She didn't die of radiation burns or anything like that.  I'd blame the damn chains that wrapped around her and dragged her down that hole....or even Radzinsky for not stopping the drilling... or maybe Jacob for not touching Juliet or, or or....But I'm not Sawyer.  All he knows is that Jack said that dropping the bomb would "fix" everything and all he has now is a dead girlfriend.  He's grief-stricken and needs someone to blame.  But as someone stated above, Juliet made the decision to get off that sub, which she only did because Kate showed up and started flapping her mouth before the oj cocktail.  So I guess it's Kate's fault.
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managerr
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4:53 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #312

which she only did because Kate showed up and started flapping her mouth before the oj cocktail.  So I guess it's Kate's fault.
OMG, you're right, it's ALWAYS Kate's fault!!!! 
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phantomkp
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4:55 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #313

lizzo1 wrote:
phantomkp wrote:
PinotEnvy wrote:
Sorry for the Jack lovers around here, but I was right there with Sawyer in his blaming Jack for this mess and wanting to kick his ass and/or kill Jack for what happened.  When will Jack learn that he can never do anything right the first time and should just shut up and quit trying to be a "hero"?  Because of his "heroics" he went and ruined Sawyer's great new life, killed Juliet and killed Sayid.  
Jack saved the island, though.

If Jack hadnt carried the load to make sure the bomb went off at the swan hatch, the electromagnetic build up there would have exploded, and destroyed the island, sending it underwater like we saw in the other timeline version.

I dont think making sure Sawyer lived with Juliet in Dharmaville for the rest of their lives is the number one priority here *rolleyes*
Well, we don't know if Jack saved the island.  That's very speculative. 
No more speculative than the post i replied to that assumed theyd all be fine and dandy if the bomb hadnt detonated there. Thats the point.

And yes, it might be speculative, but at least ita not irrational.

Irrational is blaming Jack for Juliet's and Sayid's death. They both wanted the bomb to blow up there as much as Jack. Even Juliet told Sawyer so..so Sawyer is being very irrational for blaming Jack.

As are the people in this thread who blame Jack for these death 
  
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phantomkp
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5:07 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #314

managerr wrote:
I love Sawyer, too. I just don't understand why he's so damn perfect and never hated. I think people who don't like Jack will never like him no matter what. No objectivity.
Because Sawyer admits he's a con artist and is self-loathing enough to admit he's a shitty person.  Jack is self-loathing too, but in a different way.  When he first debuted, the character was self-righteous and mr. morals, everyone around him constantly disappointed himself because they couldn't live up to his high standard.  (He pretty much was doing to everyone else what his father did to him) The character has grown some, but memories linger on.
Yes Jack is self righteous, stubborn, and hotheaded. So is Sawyer. You say Sawyer is more likable because he doesnt try to pretend to be otherwise...plays into it. Which is understandable. The funny rogue is ALWAYS more likable no matter how much of a bastard or obnoxious they are.

It still doesnt justify the Jack hate though. He didnt put himself up as the hero, nor as someone to look up to. The people on the island did, and the viewers did. It was natural to do so.

I think anyone who has this kind of Jack hate are people who wanted him to live up to that stereotype. That seterotype of the hero in most tv shows and movies. Thats what makes his flaws MORE noticable is because he goes against type. Hes as flawed a human as Sawyer. But people are more hurt when Jack does something stupid..because they expected better from him.

And thats unfair. Its your problem, not Jack's.

If the character of Jack didnt have all these flaws...being stubborn, being hotheaded, trying to fix things and be annoying about it, self righteous, having no faith, etc...he'd be boring. Its all the flaws, its all the going against type of what is expected from a character like Jack..that makes him one of the most intertesting on the show now.

Sawyer, even though i love his character, is pretty much a one note character compared to Jack. Even with his maturation on Dharma from 74-77. Jack is a way more complex character...and that always means a more interesting character.
  
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phantomkp
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5:12 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #315

lizzo1 wrote: I don't blame Jack for Juliet's death.  I just said his motive for dropping the bomb was to get Kate back.  That was his motive.  He says so to Sawyer in the above conversation.  I didn't make it up. 
You did make it up! You misinterpreted the conversation.

pussycow and Felicia are correct...at that point he wanted to explode the bomb and erase the last 3 years to rid himself of the pain of Kate. Not to get back with her.

He had the pretty much the same motive as Juliet had for wanting to explode the bomb...to never meet Sawyer because she knew he wouldnt stay with her and it would be too painful.

Yet you hate Jack's reasoning but not Juliet's...thats a head scratcher! :P

  
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phantomkp
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5:17 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #316

tigeranne wrote:    oh yeah.    I can see the argument that it's all Jack's fault that Juliet died.   however,  Juliet made the decision to leave the
sub and come back.    so,  it's kinda her own fault....  sorta.    Maybe a little.   
Well even more than that...she wanted Jack to set off the bomb. So shes complicit.

Here, i'll pull a lizzo1 and quote the transcript :P




SAWYER: Stop! We gotta talk about this!

JULIET: There's nothing to talk about, James. We have to let Jack do what he came here to do.

SAWYER: Well, maybe you shoulda told me you had a change of heart before I brought him out in the jungle to kick his ass.

JULIET: Would that have stopped you?

SAWYER: No.

JULIET: Well, then I'm glad you finally got it out of your system.

SAWYER: Hey! Hey!

JULIET: You, don't.

SAWYER: I need you to tell me where all this is coming from. I mean, one minute, you're leading the great sub escape, and now you're on board with blowing up the damn Island? I got a right to know why you changed your mind.

[Panting]

JULIET: I changed my mind when I saw you look at her. Don't. Don't. [Whispers] Don't. Don't.

SAWYER: I don't care who I looked at. I'm with you.

JULIET: And you would stay with me forever if I let you, and that is why I will always love you.

SAWYER: You don't--

JULIET: What we had, it was just for a little while, and just because we love each other, it doesn't mean that we're meant to be together. I mean, maybe we were never supposed to be together. So if Jack can make it that--that none of you ever come here, then he should.

SAWYER: Why you doing this, Juliet?

JULIET: [Voice breaks] I... if I never meet you, then I never have to lose you.

  
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Jane Drama
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5:20 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #317

HATE.
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FeliciaM7
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9:21 AM - Feb 06, 2010 #318

JULIET: There's nothing to talk about, James. We have to let Jack do what he came here to do.

SAWYER: Well, maybe you shoulda told me you had a change of heart before I brought him out in the jungle to kick his ass.

JULIET: Would that have stopped you?

SAWYER: No.


 
JULIET: What we had, it was just for a little while, and just because we love each other, it doesn't mean that we're meant to be together. I mean, maybe we were never supposed to be together. So if Jack can make it that--that none of you ever come here, then he should.

SAWYER: Why you doing this, Juliet?

JULIET: [Voice breaks] I... if I never meet you, then I never have to lose you.



FEARS!! (Felicia Tears for those who haven't made the connection)
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lizzo1
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1:19 PM - Feb 06, 2010 #319

Please don't use my name as a noun or verb or whatever.

This cannot be misinterpreted.  Sawyer says why are you doing this, what do you want.  Jack says he had her and he lost her.  Kate?  Jack finally admits the truth.  Because it is the truth!  Did you not see the look on his face?  It's not wrong or right.  It's what happened.  That can't be misinterpreted.  Jesus Fucking Christ.  Darlton agrees with me.  They are the writers.  What the hell.  You're the one who is misinterpreting that conversation if you can't see that he's doing it all to get back with Kate. 

It doesn't have to be rational, it's Destiny Jack!  Fuckin' hell.  Get some perspective.  It's not a big secret that these people are self-absorbed.  That they cause their own suffering.  It's part of the big story.  I hope they get some redemption, and the writers do it better for Jack than they did it for Charlie.

ETA:  Shit, I did it again : )
Last edited by lizzo1 on 4:55 PM - Feb 06, 2010, edited 1 time in total.
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nic2200
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5:29 PM - Feb 06, 2010 #320

I'm really not understanding the hypothesis that Jack wanted to blow up the bomb to get Kate back. If the reset worked and the flight never crashed, he would never meet Kate and wouldn't know to "get her back".

I agree with those that interpreted that conversation between Jack and Sawyer differently. I interpreted it as Jack's life was a big suckfest after they left the island and a lot of that had to do with the turbulent relationship with Kate. He wanted a do-over. Not with Kate, with life. And he wanted all the dead people to un-die.

And I don't know how you could say that Jack and Kate being together was fate so he had to blow up the bomb. If it was fate, they would have still been together for real back in the real world.

I am writing this all from Jack's perspective with what he knew at the time he tried to cause the reset. We have no idea what sideways world it going to bring, and if Jack and Kate somehow do end up together, there's no way he could have predicted that would happen.
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