Mommy Dearest Issues?

Talk about John, Mary, Adam, and the rest of the Winchester family.

Mommy Dearest Issues?

chainmefree
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chainmefree
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Joined: 16 Jul 2011, 06:01

17 Jul 2011, 23:02 #1

OK guys who do you think has the bigger issues about losing Mary... Dean or Sam?:cry

I think its Dean simply because he never fully forgave his dad or Sam for putting her in that place :jedi and both times hes gone back in the past he has tried to stop her from going into Sammy's room on that night? your views?
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Raven524
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Raven524
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Joined: 03 Jul 2006, 20:42

18 Jul 2011, 23:04 #2

Hmmmm...well to be honest, I think Dean remembers more because he lived with Mary for four years and was close to her. Sam though also loves his mother, but more for who she was I think, if that makes sense. He has no actual memory of her, but he knows she sacrificed her life trying to save him.

I think Dean tries to stop her from going into Sam's room, not because he blames either Sam or John for what happened, but because he wanted his mother to live. The truth is Family is important to both boys and I think that if given the choice, both would want their mother and father alive.

So I have to disagree with your view that Dean held Sam or John responsible for what happened to his mother--he knows who was responsible, the YED and he killed the demon. For him that was the end of it.

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charmed1of2
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19 Jul 2011, 14:08 #3

Yeah, I agree with Raven.

I remember when both boys went back in time to stop Anna from killing Mary. Sam came out and told her to leave John so in the end both of them wouldn't have even been born, which Dean agreed with.


So to me that showed both of them loved her enough to give up their own lives to save hers.

That episode was really sad in parts because really that was the first time Sam got to interact with his mom, and it still hurt Dean knowing they couldn't change what would happen after she told them she was already pregnant with him and she wasn't leaving John :cry

So in my mind both times it was Mary's choice and they couldn't change destiny like Cas had informed them anyways but that's how I've always viewed it :shrug


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bjxmas
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19 Jul 2011, 14:44 #4

I don't think Dean has ever blamed John or Sam for what happened to his mom. He blames YED and circumstances beyond their control. Both his time travel attempts to save his mom and change the future only added to his pain of the inevitability of her death.

Dean would adamantly argue with Sam that this wasn't his fault, that Sam was blameless in Mom's death and I think Dean fully feels that. He could never blame his brother. Sam was a baby, totally the victim here, just like Mom and Dean and John.

Sadly, if he were to blame a family member...then it would have to be Mary. She made the deal, she danced with the devil. But she had no choice, if she hadn't agreed to the deal, John would be dead and neither boy would have been conceived and born. It was fate or destiny and couldn't be changed.

As to which boy misses or feels her loss more? Like John's love and their daddy issues, they are both significant but simply different. Is it better to have known great love and comfort and lose it...or to never feel a mother's arms around you, to never hear those soft words of love and comfort?

I'm a Dean girl and I've always been drawn to Dean's pain. He had a glorious life with loving parents and a baby brother he adored. Everything was perfect until that horrible night and then he lost so much. Dean remembers what it was like before, remembers how scared and lost he was after, the terror of knowing his mom was gone, the fear of what was coming next, the agony of seeing his dad fall apart and not having either parent in place to protect and love him.

He has always felt her loss. He's always had that warm and soft remembrance of what was ripped out of his life. I can't imagine anything worse for a sensitive, sweet child like he was back in the beginning. It is why family is most important to him, it is what he most desires...to feel like he did as a kid before his world exploded all around him.

Now, Sam...he had no memory of Mom. I'm sure as a baby he missed her, but he had no conscious imprint to put a name to it. I'm sure somewhere he felt the loss as a child, the wistful hope that he could have normal and be like all the other kids.

Just like Dean couldn't feel what it would be like to lose your girlfriend, Sam couldn't feel what Dean felt at losing Mom. It was more abstract and unknown. They could both empathize and care about the loss, but going through it yourself is different.

For Sam, I think he felt the loss once he went back in time. Once he saw her, talked to her, came to know her. Then the loss was even greater, more pronounced and real. Then he fully felt the loss of what might have been, what he could have had.

So both boys have Mommy Issues, just like they have Daddy Issues. They have lived tragic and painful lives. I love that they carry on so beautifully, putting aside their own pain to help others, clinging to each other as the one steady presence in their lives, the one certainty they can hold on to, that they have their brother beside them in the fight and that both love the other above all else. :wub:

B.J.

:hug


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Celticwench
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19 Jul 2011, 18:39 #5

As always,BJ, you put that beautifully :)
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chainmefree
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chainmefree
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19 Jul 2011, 22:47 #6

ok Guys that brings up a different topic all together... the parent issue I would believe that Daddy issues really are worse with Dean

but Raven I never really thought of it that way!
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Amyj
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20 Jul 2011, 00:40 #7

Actually i think Dean does on a subconcious level blame Sam just a little for Marys death. And we have a little canon to back that up. The Japanese game show question that Dean got right. "Would your parents still be alive if Sam was never born."

I wish the writers had explored that a little more. Def would have made for fascinating conflict for Dean. Loving sam as much as he does but a part - whoever irrational - blames him for Mary and Johns death.

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Amyj
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20 Jul 2011, 00:44 #8

chainmefree @ Jul 19 2011, 10:47 PM wrote: ok Guys that brings up a different topic all together... the parent issue I would believe that Daddy issues really are worse with Dean

but Raven I never really thought of it that way!
Sell, sure because Dean clings to his issues as if it was a bacon cheeseburger.

amy


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Irishgirl
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20 Jul 2011, 00:52 #9

Amyj @ Jul 19 2011, 08:40 PM wrote: Actually i think Dean does on a subconcious level blame Sam just a little for Marys death. And we have a little canon to back that up. The Japanese game show question that Dean got right. "Would your parents still be alive if Sam was never born."
But Dean had no clue what the host said. He only answered to save himself from getting hit in the nuts.

I agree w/Raven. I don't think Dean blames Sam for May's death. He said as much in Salvation.

Sam: So, basically, this demon is going after these kids for some reason, same way it came for me? So, Mom’s death, Jessica – it’s all cause of me?

Dean: We don’t know that, Sam.

Sam (angry): Oh really, cause I’d say we’re pretty damn sure, Dean!

Dean: For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault.




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chainmefree
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chainmefree
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20 Jul 2011, 00:56 #10

Amyj @ Jul 19 2011, 04:44 PM wrote:
chainmefree @ Jul 19 2011, 10:47 PM wrote: ok Guys that brings up a different topic all together... the parent issue I would believe that Daddy issues really are worse with Dean

but Raven I never really thought of it that way!
Sell, sure because Dean clings to his issues as if it was a bacon cheeseburger.

amy
hahahahaha :hi5 Amy

and that is true that he did get asked that question and he did answer yes
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chainmefree
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chainmefree
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20 Jul 2011, 00:59 #11

Irishgirl @ Jul 19 2011, 04:52 PM wrote: But Dean had no clue what the host said. He only answered to save himself from getting hit in the nuts.

I agree w/Raven. I don't think Dean blames Sam for May's death. He said as much in Salvation.

Sam: So, basically, this demon is going after these kids for some reason, same way it came for me? So, Mom’s death, Jessica – it’s all cause of me?

Dean: We don’t know that, Sam.

Sam (angry): Oh really, cause I’d say we’re pretty damn sure, Dean!

Dean: For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault.
but Irishgirl you have to take into consideration that Every time the Issue about Mary and John comes up Dean get Angry and its not just towards TYD it towards the other thing that went on too! And part of that was Sam!
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Irishgirl
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20 Jul 2011, 01:12 #12

chainmefree @ Jul 19 2011, 08:59 PM wrote:
Irishgirl @ Jul 19 2011, 04:52 PM wrote: But Dean had no clue what the host said.  He only answered to save himself from getting hit in the nuts.

I agree w/Raven.  I don't think Dean blames Sam for May's death.  He said as much in Salvation.

Sam: So, basically, this demon is going after these kids for some reason, same way it came for me? So, Mom’s death, Jessica – it’s all cause of me?

Dean: We don’t know that, Sam.

Sam (angry): Oh really, cause I’d say we’re pretty damn sure, Dean!

Dean: For the last time, what happened to them is not your fault.
but Irishgirl you have to take into consideration that Every time the Issue about Mary and John comes up Dean get Angry and its not just towards TYD it towards the other thing that went on too! And part of that was Sam!
But Dean knows that Sam was just a baby and that Sam didn't ask for what happened. Mary was the one to make the deal with the YED. I don't think that Dean would hold what happened when Sam was a baby against him. Dean was angry that Sam kept having the YED's blood in him a secret, but I don't think that Dean blames Sam for actually having the YED's blood in him. That was beyond his control and I think Dean's knows that.




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chainmefree
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20 Jul 2011, 01:14 #13

Kinda off topic but I started a new game guys please try it?
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chainmefree
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chainmefree
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20 Jul 2011, 01:16 #14

Irishgirl @ Jul 19 2011, 05:12 PM wrote: But Dean knows that Sam was just a baby and that Sam didn't ask for what happened. Mary was the one to make the deal with the YED. I don't think that Dean would hold what happened when Sam was a baby against him. Dean was angry that Sam kept having the YED's blood in him a secret, but I don't think that Dean blames Sam for actually having the YED's blood in him. That was beyond his control and I think Dean's knows that.
true but i think there is still resentment there
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bjxmas
Vampire
Joined: 16 Nov 2005, 20:53

20 Jul 2011, 01:30 #15

Amyj @ Jul 20 2011, 12:40 AM wrote: Actually i think Dean does on a subconcious level blame Sam just a little for Marys death. And we have a little canon to back that up. The Japanese game show question that Dean got right. "Would your parents still be alive if Sam was never born."

I wish the writers had explored that a little more. Def would have made for fascinating conflict for Dean. Loving sam as much as he does but a part - whoever irrational - blames him for Mary and Johns death.

amy
Interesting concept...and yes, it certainly would bring conflict for Dean. He KNOWS it isn't Sam's fault, I firmly believe that...but the little boy who lost all is still there and kids don't think rationally, they feel. And Dean feels...so much that he stuffs it all down and lives in denial.

I don't know whether he blames Sam on some subconscious level or not. I think regardless, the Japanese quiz show question could only have one answer. If not for baby Sammy (who the YED came for that night) then there would have been no reason for Mary to die in that supernatural house fire. That's fact. Besides, we don't know that Dean even understood the question...he simply answered in Japanese (which he does not speak!)

Now, Sam asking the question, searching for more illumination would be very fascinating. Maybe Dean would cop to underlying resentment and oh, what an emotional upheaval that would be for both boys.

As far as Daddy issues. Again, Dean stuffed his down and played the good soldier, perfecting the good, obedient son. I don't think he ever realized a problem, he was so ingrained in holding the family together. It took a very long time for his issues with John to surface.

When they finally did, Dad was gone, Dean was facing Hell and he was scared and angry and resentful. That's a potent combination for Dean Winchester and no, he's never moved past the hurt towards forgiveness and acceptance. That's an area the writers have stalled at...how does Dean see his dad as a human being, noble and courageous and loving of his sons, but also self-obsessed with his vengeance and neglectful of his sons? How does Dean reconcile the two Johns, the loving father who sacrificed his very life and soul to save his sons with the distant soldier who commanded them and molded them into a way of life that robs them of so much? John kept them alive, he taught them how to survive, he gave them a valid and noble value system, he made them the men they are and yet he failed them on a basic, emotional level.

Sam fought his dad his entire life. He lived with the feeling of not belonging, of not being accepted, of being an outsider in his own family. He fought for his dad to see him, to understand him and to validate his choices. Instead he felt compared to his brother, the lesser of the Winchesters, the outcast. I think of both boys, Sam had the closest thing to closure when he returned to the past and talked with young John. He finally saw his father for the man he once was, the loving husband and future father who was appalled that a man would do what he himself ultimately did to his sons. Sam saw him before he was broken, before he was filled with hate for the evil that destroyed his life. Before he lost that part of himself that was compassionate and caring enough to put his sons first.

Sam understood. That scene in DMB where John opened up to him was beautiful, a glimpse of his love and his hopes for his sons. He never wanted this for them, but he felt compelled to keep them safe, to train them in this war that was coming...

I think both brothers are stuck where they are in their relationship with Dad. Sam could definitely benefit from more time to sort things out, but he's on the path, he went thru the same thing with Jessica that John did with Mary. They have that common bond and that common goal, vengeance and justice. In TSRTS he got the chance to tell his dad that he understood, that he forgives him and that he accepts his life as a hunter.

Dean is really stuck, back in denial and blocked from resolving the wounds John left. So from my POV, Dean needs him back at some point, to air their differences and truly uncover what he believes. I don't think Dean knows who he is or what he believes aside from the role he played to please Dad. He never allowed himself the freedom to choose as a young man, he became who his dad needed, who he thought he should be.

I think Show has been a little heavy-handed with Dean's response to the memory of Dad. It allowed him to bond and commiserate with Castiel, but it was one-sided, forgetting how close Dean was with his dad, how much he loved and respected the man. That love and respect isn't gone, it's hidden behind the resentment and the letdown he now feels when he thinks of Dad.

Throw in Adam and the resentment stands out, Dean most upset while Sam was understanding and more forgiving. To me that shows that Sam has resolved more concerning Dad and that Dean is still struggling, still torn between what he believed as a child and what he's acknowledged as a problem as an adult.

If anyone is interested in more, more of my thoughts and feelings on the subject are in my Jump the Shark tag Fortunate Son. I found the episode really illuminating concerning how the brothers felt about their dad and the very idea that he found comfort with another woman and produced another son. A son that was allowed to grow up normal. Dean's anger and Sam's understanding were very fascinating to me and like most of my tags, I simply needed to explore their feelings in greater depth.

Fortunate Son

I find the very differences of the brothers, both sharing this experience of growing up on the road and becoming hunters, apart from society, intriguing. I think both have issues, both have strengths and soft spots. They see things from different perspectives, experience different hurts and yet they are so close and compatible as brothers, truly the only ones who have been there thru it all and who can share this journey.

I always want to know more, and I always ultimately want to see them coming together and caring. It is the emotional underpinnings of these heroic men that grabs us. :wub:

B.J.

:hug


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