Evaluating The Current Direction Of The Show...

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Evaluating The Current Direction Of The Show...

Lamarquise
Wendigo
Joined: 07 Feb 2009, 21:38

16 Jun 2010, 07:13 #1

The more I think about it, the more I wonder if the show is going through an identity crisis.

I’ve heard an account of something Jared reportedly said at (Rising Con?), something along the lines of “With Lucifer back in hell, if he is, I think he is, I don't know but with him back in hell I’d like to see Sam change. I don’t know how, but I’d like to see him change... Maybe I’d want to be a zombie or a ghost or something. I always had a lot of fun playing a demon. I don’t want Sam to go back to, ‘Oh, Dean, please.’ He’s gotta be a man now. He’s ended the world, saved the world, died gone to hell and come back, so I want to see him change.”

Maybe someone can confirm whether Jared indeed said this and if this is an accurate transcription of what he said. If it is, and it jives with certain other opinions I’ve heard Jared has expressed in the past, it appears that Jared doesn’t want to play a “good Sam”, isn’t satisfied with the character as he has been played in the past, and believes Sam is still far too dependent on and deferential to Dean.

Does that raise any warning flags in anyone’s minds? I’ve seen plenty of Sam fans wanting to see Sam restored to at least some extent to more of the character he was through the first seasons of the show. (I would love it if he returned, gradually if necessary, to more of the gentle Sam who was quite concerned about right and wrong.) Would most of us agree that we don’t want Sam to become any kind of monster and that the good Sam/bad Sam thing has been put to rest and needs to stay that way?

More controversially, and perhaps more disturbingly, it looks to me like Jared subscribes to the theory that Sam should act even more independently than he has been, with little or no regard for Dean. That may be a slightly extreme way of stating his position, but probably close enough.

I have not watched this show for Sam. That much is obvious to anyone who reads my posts. I have watched this show because of a compelling relationship between two brothers. I watched patiently through Seasons 4 and 5 because I was assured that however rocky things between Sam and Dean got, things would eventually be fixed. Season 5 even raised some hopes by bringing up a few long-standing issues between the boys. Then everything went back to the status quo and Dean was dropped from any role in his own right in the mytharc.

All of which raises a critical question: Is there, or can there be, any actual partnership between the boys anymore? Any relationship thrives on principles of trust, respect, commonality, equality, and mutual effort. Take that away, and the relationship dies. Independence is fine and good, but there is a price for any healthy relationship. However difficult it may be, the partners must make decisions that affect the team as a whole together. They must balance the agenda, needs, and interests of the individual with those of the team. The characters may remain brothers, but if either or both are determined to do their own thing without regard for the other, how can they continue to work together? How can their relationship endure, at least on any level that is halfway healthy or compelling to watch? If Jared wants Sam to go in a direction that ultimately diverges from Dean’s (and if Sam is determined to do his own thing, the only way to avoid this is to make Dean a spineless yes-man with no agenda of his own who can and will never break permanently with Sam over any issue) what becomes of the characters? The show?

If this is where the show is headed, maybe someone needs to have a real heart-to-heart with Jared about some of these issues. Supernatural is a genre show. More importantly, it’s a show about two brothers and their relationship. Sam is a protagonist; by definition he can only go so far down the monster path or he ceases to be a protagonist and alienates anyone who is invested in him as such. (The show has already taken the boys, and Sam in particular, entirely too far for my comfort.) Sam is, or must be, essentially human and good; making him anything else will eventually result in differences between the characters so severe that it will result in a permanent break between them. Sam is not an independent agent; trying to make him one will kill the show, as the relationship between the characters, their collaboration and teamwork, is the only reason a lot of people watch. The show is about something bigger than Sam. If I understand the situation rightly, Jared is going to have to decide whether he can live with that and put his heart into that. If he can’t—and if so, that’s fine, no hard feelings or questions asked—it’s time to wind the show down as gracefully as possible and let everyone move on while they can still end on as good a note as possible.
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Bree
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Bree

16 Jun 2010, 09:56 #2

You do realize that Jared doesn't even know the direction the show is going in this season right? From what he has said he knows virtually nothing until he gets a script, that is always how Kripke has done it. Jared (and Jensen and Misha) couldn't even get Kripke to change his mind about using a whoopie cushion in a scene, I seriously doubt he has the kind of influence to get the show runner to take Sam in the direction Jared wants him to go unless its also what the showrunner wants.

Jared has always said he likes playing the darker aspects of Sam, and I for one am not the slightest bit bored with that side of things, I would love it if show did have Sam come out of hell changed. Not evil, seriously compromised but still human.
More controversially, and perhaps more disturbingly, it looks to me like Jared subscribes to the theory that Sam should act even more independently than he has been, with little or no regard for Dean. That may be a slightly extreme way of stating his position, but probably close enough.
I heard that part of the panel and that is an extreme way to interpret what he said. It was clear to me that Jared meant he doesn't want Sam backsliding into the little brother role which is something I have heard many a dean fan state that they don't want to see any more. It sounded like he wants Sam to stand on his own two feet, be a man (which is what he said) and stop leaning on Dean as the big brother. Isn't that something fans have wanted for Sam? Certainly seemed like the case on the boards this last season.

I am pretty tired of fans misinterpreting or twisting Jared's words to blame him for what they think is wrong with show. That might not be what you are doing but in my view you are reading one hell of a lot into a few innocent things Jared has said and placing far to much responsibility on him when the responsibility for what you view as the show's failure rests with the people who dictate the direction show goes in and Jared is not one of those people. Write a letter to the writers if you are that unhappy but keep in mind that we have basically no clue (much like Jared at the con) what direction show will take Sam next season.
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mags
Vampire
mags
Vampire
Joined: 06 May 2006, 00:00

16 Jun 2010, 10:43 #3

I also heard what Jared said at that panel and the way I read into it was he simply does not want Sam going back to Season 1- 3 Sam. Too much has happened to have him go back to being the little brother, the protected one. Jared has a way of.....going off on a tangent, as he says, but basically I think he just wants Sam to be as abad ass as he rightly should be now that all of this has happened. He has earned the right to be regarded in the same light as Dean and that is one damn good hunter.
Jared has every right to express his opinion, he does play the character and knows him best. The rules of the board here state that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that no one should be attacked or ridiculed because of it. We can state why we disagree with a person butt thats about it, we are urged to keep it civil at all times.....I think Jared deserves that same respect at least, don't you?
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denise
Wendigo
denise
Wendigo
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 01:22

16 Jun 2010, 10:46 #4

You know not everything is a mean poke at Sam or Jared. I thought this was a pretty fair question to ask. I think all she was saying was what IF this is the direction the show was going to go in how would it work.
Here is my problem with the whole " Little Brother" thing, No matter what Dean does or says or looks at Sam or sneezes, someone is going to find fault with Dean because they believe he's treating Sam like a little brother. There's no getting away from it, even when it isn't there. But see here's the thing, I'm the baby in my family with 3 older siblings. I've been entrusted with a lot from my parents and brothers and sister for the simple reason that I'm strong and can handle a lot of crap. Stuff that would probably make the rest of my family cringe ,lol. BUT, that doesn't change the fact that I am the little sister. NOTHING short of death of my older siblings is going to change that fact. Sam is always going to be a little brother no matter how pissed he is about it, no matter how much Dean treats him like an adult. All it's gonna take is Dean not to agree 100% with Sam over an issue and it's going to be " Oh Dean is treating Sam like a kid again" for it to start again. And if you ask me blaming Dean for having the nerve to be born first and then throwing it in his face at every opportunity that he doesn't agree with Sam is STOOPID.

Sorry, lost myself there for a sec..

Anyways, Sam is the little brother because he was born after Dean, nothing can change it so i would love to see that ended. Unless of course Dean was putting diapers on Sam , well then I could see the complaining.

:P

Edited: I know this really doesn't have much to do with conversation at hand but this is one thing that bothered me about the guys relationship.
Thank you ErinRue for the great icon.
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Bree
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Bree

16 Jun 2010, 10:55 #5

You know not everything is a mean poke at Sam or Jared. I thought this was a pretty fair question to ask. I think all she was saying was what IF this is the direction the show was going to go in how would it work.
What I took from what the op said is that she is concerned Jared is pushing the show in a direction she doesn't like. Comments like this...
  If this is where the show is headed, maybe someone needs to have a real heart-to-heart with Jared about some of these issues.
...are a bit on the nose imo. And this also ...

If I understand the situation rightly, Jared is going to have to decide whether he can live with that and put his heart into that. If he can’t—and if so, that’s fine, no hard feelings or questions asked—it’s time to wind the show down as gracefully as possible and let everyone move on while they can still end on as good a note as possible.
I find it hard not to take that sort of content as a poke at Jared. Miles vary obviously.
Here is my problem with the whole " Little Brother" thing, No matter what Dean does or says or looks at Sam or sneezes, someone is going to find fault with Dean because they believe he's treating Sam like a little brother.


Fans are super critical of both brothers so probably there will be some that will find fault with whatever either one does. I like the brother dynamic though it could do with some further tweaking, my response was my interpretation of what Jared said. That he wants Sam to be a man, stand on his own two feet etc. Not rely on Dean so much. We got some of that in season five, sounds like Jared just wants Sam to continue with that - who wouldn't want Sam being kick ass when he is so good at it?

I also heard what Jared said at that panel and the way I read into it was he simply does not want Sam going back to Season 1- 3 Sam. Too much has happened to have him go back to being the little brother, the protected one. Jared has a way of.....going off on a tangent, as he says, but basically I think he just wants Sam to be as abad ass as he rightly should be now that all of this has happened. He has earned the right to be regarded in the same light as Dean and that is one damn good hunter.
Jared has every right to express his opinion, he does play the character and knows him best. The rules of the board here state that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that no one should be attacked or ridiculed because of it. We can state why we disagree with a person butt thats about it, we are urged to keep it civil at all times.....I think Jared deserves that same respect at least, don't you?
Completely agree Mags.
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mags
Vampire
mags
Vampire
Joined: 06 May 2006, 00:00

16 Jun 2010, 11:03 #6

If this is where the show is headed, maybe someone needs to have a real heart-to-heart with Jared about some of these issues. Supernatural  is a genre show. More importantly, it’s a show about two brothers and their relationship. Sam is a protagonist; by definition he can only go so far down the monster path or he ceases to be a protagonist and alienates anyone who is invested in him as such. (The show has already taken the boys, and Sam in particular, entirely too far for my comfort.) Sam is, or must be, essentially human and good; making him anything else will eventually result in differences between the characters so severe that it will result in a permanent break between them. Sam is not an independent agent; trying to make him one will kill the show, as the relationship between the characters, their collaboration and teamwork, is the only reason a lot of people watch. The show is about something bigger than Sam. If I understand the situation rightly, Jared is going to have to decide whether he can live with that and put his heart into that. If he can’t—and if so, that’s fine, no hard feelings or questions asked—it’s time to wind the show down as gracefully as possible and let everyone move on while they can still end on as good a note as possible.
I'm sorry but this last paragraph is just.....I don't even know what to say. It's just so far off the mark of what Jared has said or would ever say. I respect your thoughts, and your opinion, but this is so wrong on so many levels, especially to Jared that I'm astounded.
Yes Jared loves it when the brothers fight, yes he wants Sam to stand on his own two feet more and not be so vulnerable at times. But he has never ever ever thought that Sam was the show, and he has never ever even hinted that he is unhappy with what Sam has done so far.....I think this is a complete disservice to Jared and I'm just....stunned that anyone would get this feeling from him....it's so far off of what Jared said .
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denise
Wendigo
denise
Wendigo
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 01:22

16 Jun 2010, 11:10 #7

Bree @ Jun 16 2010, 10:55 AM wrote:
You know not everything is a mean poke at Sam or Jared. I thought this was a pretty fair question to ask. I think all she was saying was what IF this is the direction the show was going to go in how would it work.
What I took from what the op said is that she is concerned Jared is pushing the show in a direction she doesn't like. Comments like this...
  If this is where the show is headed, maybe someone needs to have a real heart-to-heart with Jared about some of these issues.
...are a bit on the nose imo. And this also ...

If I understand the situation rightly, Jared is going to have to decide whether he can live with that and put his heart into that. If he can’t—and if so, that’s fine, no hard feelings or questions asked—it’s time to wind the show down as gracefully as possible and let everyone move on while they can still end on as good a note as possible.
I find it hard not to take that sort of content as a poke at Jared. Milage varies obviously.
Here is my problem with the whole " Little Brother" thing, No matter what Dean does or says or looks at Sam or sneezes, someone is going to find fault with Dean because they believe he's treating Sam like a little brother.


Fans are super critical of both brothers so probably there will be some that will find fault with whatever either one does. I like the brother dynamic though it could do with some further tweaking, my response was my interpretation of what Jared said. That he wants Sam to be a man, stand on his own two feet etc. Not rely on Dean so much. We got some of that in season five, sounds like Jared just wants Sam to continue with that - who wouldn't want Sam being kick ass when he is so good at it?

I also heard what Jared said at that panel and the way I read into it was he simply does not want Sam going back to Season 1- 3 Sam. Too much has happened to have him go back to being the little brother, the protected one. Jared has a way of.....going off on a tangent, as he says, but basically I think he just wants Sam to be as abad ass as he rightly should be now that all of this has happened. He has earned the right to be regarded in the same light as Dean and that is one damn good hunter.
Jared has every right to express his opinion, he does play the character and knows him best. The rules of the board here state that everyone is entitled to their opinion, and that no one should be attacked or ridiculed because of it. We can state why we disagree with a person butt thats about it, we are urged to keep it civil at all times.....I think Jared deserves that same respect at least, don't you?
Completely agree Mags.
Ok I can see where you would take that from her post. I didn't see it but that's not to say you didn't.
This is what you and I differ on, I don't think that Dean has treated Sam like a kid for the past 5 Seasons. I think considering Sam is the baby, he's been treated pretty much like an adult the entire time. That's what throws me during those times when it comes up because I honestly don't see it. :huh:
Thank you ErinRue for the great icon.
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Bree
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Bree

16 Jun 2010, 11:13 #8

I don't think I actually said that Dean has treated Sam like a kid for the past five seasons, I do think he sometimes falls into that parental mode given that he was essentially a parent to Sam much of the time when growing up. But that is something I suspect is best left for another time and thread, since we are not likely to agree. :lol:
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Jonisa
Woman in White
Jonisa
Woman in White
Joined: 24 Jan 2006, 22:19

16 Jun 2010, 11:53 #9

If this is where the show is headed, maybe someone needs to have a real heart-to-heart with Jared about some of these issues. Supernatural is a genre show. More importantly, it’s a show about two brothers and their relationship. Sam is a protagonist; by definition he can only go so far down the monster path or he ceases to be a protagonist and alienates anyone who is invested in him as such. (The show has already taken the boys, and Sam in particular, entirely too far for my comfort.) Sam is, or must be, essentially human and good; making him anything else will eventually result in differences between the characters so severe that it will result in a permanent break between them.
Let me see if I understand what you are saying here. Because of your interpretation of what Jared said at the Con regarding the direction his character might be heading in (as he has said he has no idea), you think it may be a good thing for someone to sit down and talk to Jared about certain issues? And these issues are that Jared's view of what could be an interesting path for Sam to take differ from yours?

Jared has speculated about where they might take Sam for years and every time he has he has been wildly off the mark. So you can set your mind at ease if you have any worries about Jared's theories bearing fruition, because anything speculative he says at a Con means little or nothing. He has no control over the direction of his character other than any interpretation or spin he puts on it through his acting of the character. And that can obviously only go so far.

But even if it did go in the direction that he mused about, that's just one person's opinion about where the character might go. There's nothing wrong with him speculating. I want Sam human and good myself, but friends of mine like the darkness in him as long as he's able to keep it at bay. I have no problem with their opinion, they have no problem with mine. What's the big deal?
Sam is not an independent agent; trying to make him one will kill the show, as the relationship between the characters, their collaboration and teamwork, is the only reason a lot of people watch. The show is about something bigger than Sam. If I understand the situation rightly, Jared is going to have to decide whether he can live with that and put his heart into that.
As far as whether or not Jared can put his heart into the show, I don't understand why on earth he wouldn't, as he has for five years already. He has said the show is about the brothers and been supportive of the show and Jensen and the writers many times over. Implying that he will only put his heart into the Show if it's just about Sam (as that was my interpretation of your post) bothers me a little. :(


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denise
Wendigo
denise
Wendigo
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 01:22

16 Jun 2010, 12:00 #10

Bree @ Jun 16 2010, 11:13 AM wrote: I don't think I actually said that Dean has treated Sam like a kid for the past five seasons, I do think he sometimes falls into that parental mode given that he was essentially a parent to Sam much of the time when growing up. But that is something I suspect is best left for another time and thread, since we are not likely to agree. :lol:
No no please don't think I meant you, I'm just talking in general because that's what I get when the issue pops up on the show and then when it's mentioned in a message board.

I know this is the wrong place for it but I have to say something about it.
I've noticed on these boards that if you have something to say that doesn't agree with other members your basically shunned. Your talked about on other threads and told that since other members didn't see it that way you must be watching another show or just trying to cause trouble.
It doesn't matter if anyone agrees or disagrees with her opinions, she has a right to express them without getting crapped on in another thread.
Do I agree with her on the Jared front? I don't know because I haven't seen the video yet and analyse everything she wrote because sometimes what's written is what's written, no hidden meaning behind it. I thought her question of what direction do we think Season 6 will go in with the spoilers we do have was a fair one.

So,

Do I think Jared is a rabid actor who's plotting to take over the show? Umm No.
Do I think Jared knows what's going to happen with everything in Season 6? Umm No

I Do think Jared twitches in his sleep...Ummm Yea :P :P :P :P


* This is not aimed at any one person, just something I've noticed happening a lot since the end of the Season.
Thank you ErinRue for the great icon.
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mags
Vampire
mags
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Joined: 06 May 2006, 00:00

16 Jun 2010, 12:05 #11

I have absolutely no problem with her question, in fact I agree it's a fair one, which I hope i answered politely.
What has upset me slightly is how she worded her paragraph about Jared. She may not have intended it but it is pretty inflammatory in my opinion and has this Jared fan completely astounded.
The talk of the other thread, well then that is directed at me, but it is a thread aimed at saying what you feel without fear of being stamped on which I did and I was talked down very nicely by my fellow fans in there. I would have thought it was bettr than completely losing it in here which was my first instinct.
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Bree
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Bree

16 Jun 2010, 12:09 #12

  I thought her question of what direction do we think Season 6 will go in with the spoilers we do have was a fair one.
Do we really have any spoilers though? Some very vague ones I guess but what Jared said at the con wasn't even really speculation but an answer to a fan question about what he would like for Sam next season.

Possibly I misread her post - its one thing to worry that show won't be written how you want it to be but its another thing to make a post blaming that on one of the actors when it is based on something that has been completely twisted and misinterpreted. I am totally not getting at you with this reply Denise, I hope thats clear.
Your talked about on other threads and told that since other members didn't see it that way you must be watching another show or just trying to cause trouble.
That is a shame.
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Jamieo_0
Demon Hunter
Jamieo_0
Demon Hunter
Joined: 06 Mar 2008, 22:05

16 Jun 2010, 14:15 #13

While I agree with Mags, that the question of the show's direction is valid, especially with the change in show runner this season. (We DON'T know what's in store) I am, frankly, shocked that anyone would impugn Jared's commitment and dedication; to the story, to his own work or to his fans.

We have seen countless examples of his professional proficiency, and the personal generosity of his time, wit and genuine friendliness. I find calling this into question beyond rude.

We all have "worries" or "apprehension" about the story. And to a certain extent the character studies and criticisms are to be expected. But make no mistake, we are far more removed from this character, even in our most rabid obsession, than Jared who knows the character inside and out - having literally walked in the shoes for 5 years.
Waldorf : *moans*
Statler: What's the matter with you?
Waldorf: *moans* It's either this show or indigestion. I hope it's indigestion.
Statler: Why?
Waldorf: Cause that'll get better in a little while.
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markie
Vampire
Joined: 07 Jun 2007, 13:46

16 Jun 2010, 14:23 #14

I dont care what issues the op has with the show or how it is written we all can have those moments but to attack Jared on the levels they did I cant even find the words to be honest , totally uncalled for..


You do not take innocent remarks Jared said at a con in answer to a question and come up with what she did..

Are we going to get to a stupid point where Jared has to justify a single word he utters it is his right to express certain aspects of his character ..

Or what he may like to see the same has Jensen , it was not his fault that Dean didnt get what some wanted in the finale , nor is it his fault as to where the show may go , he simply answered a question concerning Sam ..

This was rude beyond words ..
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denise
Wendigo
denise
Wendigo
Joined: 29 Jan 2007, 01:22

16 Jun 2010, 14:51 #15

It wasn't my intention to cause trouble by defending her opinion, just her right to voice her opinion.
Though it is a very good question, With what we do know, what direction do you think the show is going in Season 6?
Thank you ErinRue for the great icon.
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