Did Castiel Kill Bobby John?

Discuss season 6 as it airs in the U.S. and Canada. NO SPOILERS IN THIS FORUM.

Did Castiel Kill Bobby John?

Amyj
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26 Jul 2011, 14:55 #1

We already know The Alpha shifter was taken and murdered by Crowly...who also tried to use a nursery of Shifterbabies as leverage to get info on purgatory.

We know Crowly hated his own son and didn't care if Bobby destroyed his soul. Castiel tortured the child Aaren for info...he also attempted to kill 8 yr old Jessie in s5.

Stands to reason Crowly and/or Castiel MURDERED or was complicit in murdering Bobby John.

Amy


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Winchester66
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26 Jul 2011, 15:28 #2

Amyj @ Jul 26 2011, 02:55 PM wrote: We already know The Alpha shifter was taken and murdered by Crowly...who also tried to use a nursery of Shifterbabies as leverage to get info on purgatory.

We know Crowly hated his own son and didn't care if Bobby destroyed his soul. Castiel tortured the child Aaren for info...he also attempted to kill 8 yr old Jessie in s5.

Stands to reason Crowly and/or Castiel MURDERED or was complicit in murdering Bobby John.

Amy
The Alpha shifter came and reclaimed the shapeshifter baby from Dean. It wasn't at Crowley's HQ in Caged Heat, when Castiel apparently destroyed the Alphas, and given that Castiel turned out to be working with Crowley he may not have killed any of the Alphas at all. He only went back into destroy them at Sam's request, and Dean didn't protest it. This makes the brothers themselves complicit in any "murdering" that took place. And given the place was full of the kind of monsters they have dedicated themselves to destroying, I fail to see why it should be an issue that Castiel might have killed any of them.

Castiel didn't "torture" Aaron. He did what he had to do to find out how to take the mark off the boy's soul so that he could keep his soul. Perhaps you think allowing the boy's deal to stand would be better? And Jesse was the Antichrist and had already wreaked havoc. It's also abundantly clear that Castiel was troubled by the thought of hurting Aaron and troubled by the prospect of killing the Antichrist.
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amijek
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26 Jul 2011, 15:41 #3

Amyj @ Jul 26 2011, 02:55 PM wrote: We already know The Alpha shifter was taken and murdered by Crowly...who also tried to use a nursery of Shifterbabies as leverage to get info on purgatory.

We know Crowly hated his own son and didn't care if Bobby destroyed his soul. Castiel tortured the child Aaren for info...he also attempted to kill 8 yr old Jessie in s5.

Stands to reason Crowly and/or Castiel MURDERED or was complicit in murdering Bobby John.

Amy
I agree with you actually Amyj.

Unfortuantly everything in season 6 had to do with Castiel. And I say unfortunately because look at what we got, a season that was so disjointed and unrelatable that I don't even know if its worth a second look. Theres nothing there that really touched my heart...except for the boys hug and of course the few scenes we got of Dean and Sam looking out for each other...thats where the heart is.

But Castiel loves to believe he has a soul, which he has not. He loves to believe he cares, which he clearly does not. Yelling at Dean when he chose to bring back his own brothers soul rather than keep him soulless and his soul being tortured. Torturing that little kid, which he did for his own reasons not for the one Dean and Sam thought it was for.

He tortured him and Sam and Dean just don't do things that way. Which is why these two species should never be on the same page...they just have different values of life imo.

Castiel was ready to kill that antichrist kid even tormenting him with the fact that his parents won't come down to help him. Who cares if was even looking hesitant, he was going to do it. Dean and Sam wouldn't even go there to save the world, they would try other avenues. Castiel has always thought himself bigger and better than anyone even when angels were here to serve humans. That always amazes me.
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Irishgirl
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26 Jul 2011, 15:59 #4

Torturing that little kid, which he did for his own reasons not for the one Dean and Sam thought it was for.
That kid sold his soul so that he could punish the men he held repsonsible for his brother's death. If Cas had not done what he did, that boy's soul would have belonged to Balthazar. Who knows when the angel would have come to collect? Perhaps on the day the kid graduated from HS or on his wedding day or the day his first child is born.
But Castiel loves to believe he has a soul, which he has not. He loves to believe he cares, which he clearly does not.
When has Cas ever said or done anything to indicate that he thinks he has a soul. Has he at times shown human like qualities? Yes, but I wouldn't equate that with Cas thinking he has a soul.
Castiel didn't "torture" Aaron. He did what he had to do to find out how to take the mark off the boy's soul so that he could keep his soul. Perhaps you think allowing the boy's deal to stand would be better? And Jesse was the Antichrist and had already wreaked havoc. It's also abundantly clear that Castiel was troubled by the thought of hurting Aaron and troubled by the prospect of killing the Antichrist.
I agree.




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Winchester66
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26 Jul 2011, 16:06 #5

amijek wrote:
I agree with you actually Amyj.
How can you agree with something that isn't canon? The shifter baby wasn't at Crowley's HQ.
amijek wrote: But Castiel loves to believe he has a soul,
No he doesn't. In 6.20 he clearly said to Crowley: I don't have a soul to trade.
amijek wrote: He loves to believe he cares, which he clearly does not.
He clearly does. Otherwise he wouldn't have tried to stop Raphael at all. He cared enough to give up the 50,000 souls in MHWGO, and in 6.20 he told Crowley he would tear down their arrangement if Crowley touched a hair on the brothers' heads.
amijek wrote:Yelling at Dean when he chose to bring back his own brothers soul rather than keep him soulless and his soul being tortured.
It's pretty clear to all but the most rabid Cas hater (imo) that Castiel was concerned that resouling Sam might kill him.
amijek wrote:Torturing that little kid, which he did for his own reasons not for the one Dean and Sam thought it was for.
He did it to find out who "owned" the boy's soul and get back the weapons – weapons that were being used to wreak havoc. Are you suggesting leaving the weapons out there would have been a better choice? Even the brothers didn't think that.
amijek wrote: He tortured him and Sam and Dean just don't do things that way.  Which is why these two species should never be on the same page...they just have different values of life imo.
Again, he didn't "torture" the boy. And to say Sam and Dean have never engaged in that kind of thing is a ludicrous claim.
amijek wrote: Who cares if was even looking hesitant, he was going to do it.
If he was going to do it he would have done it, not hesitated. The fact he didn't do it means you can't claim with any certainty that he would have. It is possible to change one's mind.
amijek wrote: Dean and Sam wouldn't even go there to save the world, they would try other avenues.
I seem to remember Sam being perfectly willing to kill Nancy in order to stop Lilith in JiB. He saw it as a necessary evil.
amijek wrote: Castiel has always thought himself bigger and better than anyone even when angels were here to serve humans.  That always amazes me.
Yet strangely he hasn't thought himself above sacrificing his grace and his life for the Winchesters. Which he has, twice. Three times in fact, since his actions in S6 were also in order to protect the brothers from Raphael's plans to restart the Apocalypse.
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amijek
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26 Jul 2011, 16:11 #6

That kid sold his soul so that he could punish the men he held repsonsible for his brother's death. If Cas had not done what he did, that boy's soul would have belonged to Balthazar. Who knows when the angel would have come to collect? Perhaps on the day the kid graduated from HS or on his wedding day or the day his first child is born.
No Castiel did what he did because he could and it was the easy way. Dean didn't want to do it, Sam with a soul wouldn't of wanted it either. Castiel did what he did the whole season because he thought it was right but hey munching on souls and killing innocent people for the greater good is not what people do. Like the Winchesters they find another way, or even sacrifice themselves not others.
When has Cas ever said or done anything to indicate that he thinks he has a soul. Has he at times shown human like qualities? Yes, but I wouldn't equate that with Cas thinking he has a soul.
Who said he had to say it, he thinks it. He thinks he's perfect, he thinks he saves people and he does nothing wrong. To me he's never shown human like qualities...imo other angels have shown more human like qualities than he has. Even Lucifer showed more human like qualities with the way he talked and learnt and didn't act like he was a 5 year old that didn't know how to pick up the literal meanings of things. (the same with every other angel).

Heck Gabriel was a heck of a lot more human and acted like he did have a soul. He sacrificed himself for no thanks for no I'm a hero. Its just the way it had to be, he didn't come back and beat up the Winchesters for what he gave up.

Castiel has no recourse to his actions he just does it and the writers just have Sam and Dean stand there agreeing or not saying anything. He's done some horrible things and none other than getting Sam out knowingly without his soul and not saying anything so he can use him in his fight to munch on souls.

He should be irredeemable...
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Winchester66
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26 Jul 2011, 16:25 #7

amijek wrote: No Castiel did what he did because he could and it was the easy way
Opinion as fact.
amijek wrote: Who said he had to say it, he thinks it.
Again, see 6.20: "I don't have a soul to sell."
amijek wrote: He thinks he's perfect,
All of 6.20 was an exercise in Castiel's self-doubt and made it very clear he doesn't think he's perfect at all.
amijek wrote: To me he's never shown human like qualities...
Then why do you expect him to behave like a human?
amijek wrote:Castiel has no recourse to his actions he just does it and the writers just have Sam and Dean stand there agreeing or not saying anything.
Since recourse has no relevance in this context, I assume you mean reason. His reasons for doing what he did are clear to all but the most rabid (imo) Cas-hater. LOL, his reasons are even clear to Sam and Dean. And actually Sam and Dean didn't just stand there and agree with what he was doing – Dean went ahead and resouled Sam, and they both tried to stop him in 6.22.
amijek wrote: getting Sam out knowingly without his soul and not saying anything so he can use him in his fight to munch on souls.
That is not canon. However, it is canon that Cas didn't know about Sam's soul, much as you might like to imagine he did as part of your Castiel-was-evol-all-along agenda.
amijek wrote:He should be irredeemable...
To you he may not be but thankfully the Winchesters can apply their own mistakes to Cas's actions, and previous characterization of both brothers suggests they are decent enough human beings to understand his reasons and forgive him.
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gwalhaved
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26 Jul 2011, 18:52 #8

 
That kid sold his soul so that he could punish the men he held repsonsible for his brother's death. If Cas had not done what he did, that boy's soul would have belonged to Balthazar. Who knows when the angel would have come to collect? Perhaps on the day the kid graduated from HS or on his wedding day or the day his first child is born.
No Castiel did what he did because he could and it was the easy way. Dean didn't want to do it, Sam with a soul wouldn't of wanted it either.
I don't think Cas did what he did because it was easy. There was absolutely no way to figure out who owned the boy's soul except to touch his soul and find the mark that Balthazar left. Cas certainly didn't relish hurting the boy and was apologetic to Dean.
He thinks he's perfect, he thinks he saves people and he does nothing wrong. To me he's never shown human like qualities...imo other angels have shown more human like qualities than he has.
I don't see anything about Cas thinking he's perfect or god-like until after he swallows the Purgatory souls, which may actually be corrupting him. He does feel as an angel he's superior to humans, but he is even shown to doubt that on many occasions - especially since everything he does, he does for Dean - ironic that a superior being looks to an inferior being as a role model.

I think Anna was the only angel who had more human-like qualities than Cas - because she became human. Gabriel was a trickster. Zachariah was a dick, as was Micheal and Raphael and Raphael's crew. Balthazar was a shameless opportunist. Rachel seemed to be the only other angel akin to Cas.
Heck Gabriel was a heck of a lot more human and acted like he did have a soul. He sacrificed himself for no thanks for no I'm a hero. Its just the way it had to be, he didn't come back and beat up the Winchesters for what he gave up.
Again, Gabriel was a trickster who loved nothing better than to screw with humans' heads - torturing them mentally and emotionally and I don't think he willingly sacrificed himself, I think he thought he might just be able to take on Lucifer in his deteriorating vessel, as I recall.
Castiel has no recourse to his actions he just does it and the writers just have Sam and Dean stand there agreeing or not saying anything. He's done some horrible things and none other than getting Sam out knowingly without his soul and not saying anything so he can use him in his fight to munch on souls.
I think Dean has made it clear that he is extremely angry with Cas and does not like what Cas has done and has called him out on several occasions after he found out Cas' true plans.
And Cas did not know that Sam was soulless at first - just that there was something wrong with Sam after he extracted him from the Cage. He was quite bewildered when Sam just looked at Dean through Lisa's window and left. And Cas certainly didn't take Sam out of the Cage to have him help him in his fight to eat the Purgatory souls since Cas wasn't even aware of them until after Sam left and Crowley came to lure him away. Crowley didn't even talk about the Purgatory souls until after Cas confronted Raphael and got his beatdown. Stop making knee jerk remarks that have no basis in the canon of the show. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that Cas is irredeemable, but he resurrected Sam for the sake of Dean, not for his own personal gain or to "munch" Purgatory souls. That was made crystal clear by Edlund and TPTB.
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Raven524
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26 Jul 2011, 21:41 #9

I have to say amijek, I find myself agreeing with Winchester66 and the others who have pointed out quite well the problem with your suggestions about Castiel.

I guess to me, the problem may lie in us trying to assign human characteristics to a being that until recently simply followed orders and had no free will. You have a character who stood against Archangels to try to do the right thing and help avert the apocalypse. I also believe he cared enough about 'humans' and the other angels in heaven to try to figure out a way to stop Raphael. He didn't become corrupted until he absorbed the souls in my opinion.

The Shapeshifter did return and took the baby so the child was not there when the other monsters were destroyed. To be honest, other than in the end we found out Crowley and Cas were working together, Castiel was pretty hands off when it came to dealing with the Alpha's--that was all Crowley. Also, it was pretty clear to me that Crowley was following his own agenda sometimes as well.

I personally don't think Cas is unredeemable any more than I though Sam or Dean were when they have done questionable things. I just think they did bad things for the right reasons--their hearts (as they were, because technically Cas doesn't really have one :lol: ) are in the right place. :)

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amijek
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26 Jul 2011, 23:35 #10

I see your point Raven but he can't have it both ways. He showed a human side making his choice to go against the angels but he's not human and can't make choices but then again...he did.

He told Anna that you don't go against heaven when you've been to angel camp which is why he didn't believer her...but he did when he left.

It can also be argued he left heaven no to help the Winchesters but because this wasn't Gods plan and his plan was to find God. The Winchesters were just his anchor to earth not his reason for being there.

He kept Dean in long enough for all to have happen happen..and all the pleading in the world didn't work for him not until he realised that he had nothing up in heaven except betrayl to God.

I personally don't think Cas is unredeemable any more than I though Sam or Dean were when they have done questionable things. I just think they did bad things for the right reasons--their hearts (as they were, because technically Cas doesn't really have one  ) are in the right place.
I don't think anything Dean and Sam did under the manipulation of the angels is even remotely like what Castiel has done to them and how he used them and manipulated them for his own good.

We can't say he didn't have anything to do with the alphas because he did indirectly have everything to do with the alphas. He knew about Sam but allowed the boys to work for Crowley for a soul that he didn't want back in Sam in the first place. He used them to get what he wanted..both boys.

Crowley has no investment. The fans can't have it both ways and neither can he...he's either a friend or a foe. He either understands them or he doesn't have a clue. Castiel was playing both sides...but one side had no idea. Why should that side even care about him anymore. Why should they take the time, it should be over. The boys did things because they were forced in to actions and believing that this was the only way. Their family was taken away from them leaving Dean to believe he was soley responsible for keeping his brother safe even sacrificing his life. Sam believed that to save Dean from any more pain he was the one to stop Lilith you stop the apocolypse...whoops..another lie and manipulation.

I'm not sure how their problems and decisions are even remotely the same as Castiels. Who chose in his right mind to do the things he did and chose too drag the Winchesters through the mud again not giving them a choice whether they wanted too or not.

He didn't tell Dean about getting Sam out because Sam walked away and/or he wanted Dean to live the life..right? He knew why Gramps was brought down and he knew Sam was working for him essentially working for Crowley and Castiel...finding alphas to find the souls to munch on to get to Raphael. Castiel was completely directly to blame knowing every step of the way that he was worng but chose to be the monster he has become whilst sacrificing the Winchester boys to do it.
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amijek
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26 Jul 2011, 23:43 #11

He was quite bewildered when Sam just looked at Dean through Lisa's window and left. And Cas certainly didn't take Sam out of the Cage to have him help him in his fight to eat the Purgatory souls since Cas wasn't even aware of them until after Sam left and Crowley came to lure him away. Crowley didn't even talk about the Purgatory souls until after Cas confronted Raphael and got his beatdown. Stop making knee jerk remarks that have no basis in the canon of the show. You are certainly entitled to your opinion that Cas is irredeemable, but he resurrected Sam for the sake of Dean, not for his own personal gain or to "munch" Purgatory souls. That was made crystal clear by Edlund and TPTB.
Castiel looked belwildered all season but we find out he was playing another game other than the side that the boys were on. What we do know as 'canon' since you want that:

What brought Sam back bought Gramps back. We find out that what brought Sam back was Castiel.

Gramps was brought back to help Crowley with the alphas. So Castiel brought Gramps back but didn't know he was there to help Crowley..that doesn't even make sense.

We have no idea about the time line other than when he brought Sam back he probably didn't know about Sams soul but he knew about what he was doing to help Gramps and then Crowley and then himself.

Sam was with Gramps from the jump...thats canon.
Gramps was brought back by the same person that brought back Sam - Castiel
Why was Gramps brought back, to help Crowley with the alphas.
Why did Castiel bring back Gramps if he didn't know what was going on.

620 was just Castiels POV we now know how screwed up he is...he's telling it like he's the hero and he didn't nothing wrong, that might not be how others see it.

How do you figure the reason why he kept it all a secret when Dean finally knew Sams soul was missing and then they went to work for Crowley, helping him and essentially helping Castiel...munch on souls for power.

How is that redeemable. How is that o.k. And why shouldn't the boys just wash their hands and move on. Canon also has shown us that no one hurts the boys and gets away with it.
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Winchester66
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27 Jul 2011, 00:39 #12

amijek wrote: It can also be argued he left heaven no to help the Winchesters but because this wasn't Gods plan and his plan was to find God. The Winchesters were just his anchor to earth not his reason for being there.
What have you been watching for the last two years? Castiel was cut off from Heaven because he helped the brothers. He hoped to find God in order to set things right (which would indirectly help the brothers).
amijek wrote: He kept Dean in long enough for all to have happen happen..and all the pleading in the world didn't work for him not until he realised that he had nothing up in heaven except betrayl to God.
What does that even mean?!
amijek wrote: what Castiel has done to them and how he used them and manipulated them for his own good.
This is about the only part of your first post I can make sense of. Castiel didn’t use them and manipulate the brothers for his own good at all. I don’t think being cut off from Heaven, being hunted by his own brothers, losing his powers, falling and dying (twice) can remotely be presented as being for Castiel’s “good.” If Castiel had been out for himself he would have let the Apocalypse go down as planned and continued to live a great life in Heaven.
amijek wrote: Crowley has no investment.
Yes Crowley did have an investment which he clearly stated several times: he wanted to find Purgatory and he wanted his half of the Purgatory souls. And imo it’s clear from the fact he showed up at the end with Raphael that he was probably planning his own doublecross all along.
amijek wrote: chose in his right mind to do the things he did and chose too drag the Winchesters through the mud again
It was clear all season long that Cas was under a huge amount of pressure from his war against Raphael and that he didn’t have many options. It is also 100% crystal clear that he did what he did to protect the brothers from Raphael’s plans to release Lucifer and Michael. Perhaps you might explain how that would have benefited the brothers, since that’s what would have happened if Cas hadn’t done what he did. What do you think would have happened to the brothers and the planet with Lucifer and Michael out of the cage? I don’t think they’d have wanted to take the brothers out for a drink and no hard feelings.
amijek wrote: Gramps was brought back by the same person that brought back Sam - Castiel
Watch 6.20 without your Cas-hate goggles on. Crowley brought Samuel back. He said so. It’s canon.

It is also fairly well-known that the storyline changed mid-season – Robert Singer commented about “having to turn the ocean liner around.” Misha Collins has said he was originally told Cas would die this season. Mark Sheppard has said Crowley was supposed to stay dead. Sam doesn’t have a handprint, which he should have if Castiel raised him. It’s pretty clear the original plan was for it to have been Crowley who raised Sam, as he originally said. Since Crowley also raised Samuel, imo that’s how they hooked up if the original plan had been followed through. Sam hooking up with Samuel makes no sense because the original plan changed.
amijek wrote: 620 was just Castiels POV
So you’re suggesting that Castiel was lying, within introspection, in a conversation with God. Who would know if Cas was lying… you know, since he’s God.
amijek wrote: he's telling it like he's the hero and he didn't nothing wrong
Watch it properly. The entire episode is self-flagellation (look it up).
amijek wrote: why shouldn't the boys just wash their hands and move on
How about because they’re decent human beings who know what it’s like to have impossible choices and make mistakes? Since they’ve done it, and they’ve been forgiven for it. As to the cruel, vengeful brothers you seem to want to watch every week? Sorry: doesn't sound like the Winchesters I know, and I wouldn't want to watch them. They sound too much like vicious, soulless sociopaths. I prefer them with hearts and some compassion.
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alexa
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27 Jul 2011, 01:06 #13

He told Anna that you don't go against heaven when you've been to angel camp which is why he didn't believer her...but he did when he left.
Of course he didn't believe her, he experience it first hand and when he came back from bible camp he still towed the line himself, it was later on that he completly joined Dean and then TFW.
Why should that side even care about him anymore. Why should they take the time, it should be over.
Maybe because of their previous history, rescuing Dean from hell, dying twice and helping boys on numerous occasions.

As for gramps:

Episode 20 Crowley said I know a certain big, bald patriarch I can take off the bench. Crowley brought gramps to work for him.
Crowley has no investment.
How so? he wanted half of the souls for himself to strengthen his position in hell.
It's in the same ep.

And it's also possible he may have had hidden motives beyond that as well.
Crowley doesn't do anything freely or from the goodness of his heart.
The boys did things because they were forced in to actions and believing that this was the only way.
Cas was given ultimatum, 24 hours to kneel before Raphael and join his free Michael and Lucifer from the cage mission (to get their show back on the road, you know death celebrity match) or die.

Sure, he could have chosen to die and left boys/humanity to deal with another apocalypse on their own. Why should he care about anything of that in the first place? or what Dean fought for? It's not like they have a profound bond or anything like that. Cas rebeled for kicks and well .....

Or he could have gone to Dean and somehow magically they would come up with a plan in less then a day to neutralize Raphael who btw at that time was far stronger then Cas, been an archangel, the rest of the host at his disposal and all that.

Considering how long it took them with Lucifer, it's highly unlikely they would succeed in a day against Raph.

So yes I believe that he believed that Crowley's offer to him seemed like it was the only way.
We can't say he didn't have anything to do with the alphas because he did indirectly have everything to do with the alphas.
True but that same logic can be applied then on various things like boys indirectly causing Ellen and Jo death's, Sam making Dean promise to go to Lisa/Ben put them in danger.

The point is indirectly people would be held responsible for a lot of things.
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Winchester66
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27 Jul 2011, 01:22 #14

Alexa wrote:Cas was given ultimatum, 24 hours to kneel before Raphael and join his free Michael and Lucifer from the cage mission (to get their show back on the road, you know death celebrity match) or die.
Yes, plus if Heaven time moves like Hell time (which it may well – DSOTM seems to imply this) that 24 hours in Heaven was probably only a couple of hours (if that) on Earth. There's no way Dean could have helped Cas find another solution.
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27 Jul 2011, 01:55 #15

*grabs the popcorn and watches the show.* ;)
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