“Worship Leader”: “The idols are different but the results are the same”

“Worship Leader”: “The idols are different but the results are the same”

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 1st, 2006, 6:03 pm #1

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…” Notice the semi-colon in the above passage:

<ol>[*]Apostles; [semi-colon]
[*]Prophets; [semi-colon]
[*]Evangelists; [semi-colon]
[*]Pastors-Teachers; [semi-colon]

[/list]Here’s a brief explanation of “pastors and teachers.” This phrase is not in reference to the modern-day “pastor” of some religious faiths who is the “leader” of that particular faith. Rather, as clearly defined in a different role [as the semi-colon indicates], the provision for having “pastors-teachers” [hyphenated for illustration] is associated with the role of [a plurality of] elders in a congregation. Notice certain qualifications of elders:
  • <font color=red>“[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (I Timothy 3, KJV] </font>
(I think the explanation above is necessary in order not to get side-tracked into the “pastors” issue.) Now, let’s look at the entire passage dealing with the one church and the provision that Christ has made “… for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”:
  • <font color=red> [1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4, KJV)
    </font>
The point is to show that Christ has made ample provision for the furtherance and edification of his church. For man to add to what Christ has provided, which is sufficient for the needs of the church, is abhorrent to God and insulting to His wisdom and authority.

The office of “worship leader,” which man has devised for a man or a woman to lead the congregation into God’s HOLY presence with all the rah-rah-rah, rhythmic clapping, concert-like hand-waving and body movements, irreverent and AWE-less behavior—is UNAUTHORIZED.

Worship is never a ministry! Musical worship does not exist—read the Holy Scripture and it’s nowhere to be found. Musical worship is a form of idolatry. Within it can exist an IDOLATRY of MUSICAL TALENT—just think about what that means … I know you can figure it out.

Please, please do not confuse man-ordained “musical worship” with the divinely ordained assembly of the saints as a Bible school in which God’s truth is taught and learned—i.e., by teaching and admonishing one another—and fellow believers partake of the bread to commemorate Christ’s suffering and death on the cross.

Yes, and members are not to be faulted for being misled, there exists a different form of idolatry. Nonetheless, it is idolatrous and the result is the same.

Read the article below.

Donnie</font>
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

April 1st, 2006, 11:10 pm #2


______________________________

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Here it is: an article written by Lowell Davey, president of the Bible Broadcasting Network. It is not only in churches of Christ, but also in many other religious faiths that the “worship wars” are going on. It is admittedly more difficult to deal with this issue in the brotherhood than anywhere else because the use of instrumental music in the assembly compounds further the already complex issue of worship. The article below, hopefully, will help explain to those among us who claim that the church is dying [more like wishful thinking on their part in order to promote their agenda of change, change, change] and that it is outdated and unreasonably adamant to culture-based needs—as if the gospel and doctrine of Christ ought to change relatively. It is unfortunate that those critics and change agents among us who clamor for “go with the flow” thingy continue to bash the church and compromise the truth.

Donnie</font>

______________________________
  • <font size=5> Perspective
    </font>
    <font size=4> "The idols are different but the results are the same."</font>
    <font color=black size=3 face=times new roman>The "worship wars" are beating the drums throughout the church today. This isn't new. Repeatedly in the Old Testament God judged His people for false worship. Exodus 32 says they were punished for both worshipping a false god and worshipping God falsely. In John 4, Jesus shared with the woman at the well the true principles of worship. It was not the physical location, but rather the spiritual condition of the person.

    Worship throughout the Old Testament was always in a building called a temple or tabernacle. Today, that has all changed. "Know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit...?" I Corinthians 6:19. God does not meet with us in buildings, but indwells us individually. Today we are temples of God who go to a place for fellowship, prayer, breaking of bread, and learning of His Word. The place is the Church. (Acts 2:42) In fact, from the beginning of the book of Acts (the beginning of the Church) to the book of Jude, there is not one reference to collective worship. Nearly all references to worship in the book of Acts are a rebuke of false worship.

    In all the "worship wars," music is the battleground. Many church services begin with a long period of "praise and worship," as if this is worship, and the rest of the service is something else. This is not new. In Exodus 32:4-6, Israel had come to the place where God was going to personally give them His Word. They missed it. Their self-appointed "worship leader" made a golden calf, called it god, rocked out the music, added dancing and eventually immorality, and called it worship. This led the people into God's judgment. It was an abomination to God. Does this have any of the contemporary flavor? Can it be found in this "worship war" of music and dance today? Aaron (the first worship leader) led the people in dance and music to worship in Egypt's style and turned their hearts from the eternal God to Egypt's golden idol. The idols are different, but the results are the same. The absence of the leader opened the door to perverted worship. Perhaps this should be a warning to the leadership in the church today. Maybe there is cause for alarm.

    Ron Owens in his book, Return To Worship, talks of "the rise of the chorus and the death of the hymn." We are stealing from this generation our greatest heritage and our greatest teaching tool. Martin Luther used the power of hymns as he sent out singing groups to teach the people doctrine (Colossians 3:16) which played a great part in the Reformation. We still sing his great hymns 500 years later.

    Isaac Watts wrote 875 hymns 250 years ago. Many, like "When I Survey The Wondrous Cross," are in our hymnals. Charles Wesley gave us hundreds of hymns, like "O For A Thousand Tongues To Sing." John Newton, the converted slave trader, gave us "Amazing Grace." The longevity of these hymns in the Church has been the bedrock of much of the indelible learning of doctrine. Yes, there have been many hymns written in the past hundred years that are wonderful as well. The great concern is that a pastor or worship leader may close the hymn book and steal our greatest tool for teaching the Truth to the next generation. Can we sing some choruses? Of course, we can. But it is like serving the appetizer and forgetting the main course if we neglect the hymns. In time, we will find a famine in the land for the Word of God.

    This is one reason BBN shares the great hymns daily. It will nourish you because it is God's will as seen in Ephesians 5:17-20. It is the will of the Lord to sing hymns.</font>

    <font size=1>Lowell Davey, President of BBN</font>
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Brian
Brian

April 2nd, 2006, 1:23 am #3

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…” Notice the semi-colon in the above passage:

<ol>[*]Apostles; [semi-colon]
[*]Prophets; [semi-colon]
[*]Evangelists; [semi-colon]
[*]Pastors-Teachers; [semi-colon]

[/list]Here’s a brief explanation of “pastors and teachers.” This phrase is not in reference to the modern-day “pastor” of some religious faiths who is the “leader” of that particular faith. Rather, as clearly defined in a different role [as the semi-colon indicates], the provision for having “pastors-teachers” [hyphenated for illustration] is associated with the role of [a plurality of] elders in a congregation. Notice certain qualifications of elders:
  • <font color=red>“[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (I Timothy 3, KJV] </font>
(I think the explanation above is necessary in order not to get side-tracked into the “pastors” issue.) Now, let’s look at the entire passage dealing with the one church and the provision that Christ has made “… for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”:
  • <font color=red> [1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4, KJV)
    </font>
The point is to show that Christ has made ample provision for the furtherance and edification of his church. For man to add to what Christ has provided, which is sufficient for the needs of the church, is abhorrent to God and insulting to His wisdom and authority.

The office of “worship leader,” which man has devised for a man or a woman to lead the congregation into God’s HOLY presence with all the rah-rah-rah, rhythmic clapping, concert-like hand-waving and body movements, irreverent and AWE-less behavior—is UNAUTHORIZED.

Worship is never a ministry! Musical worship does not exist—read the Holy Scripture and it’s nowhere to be found. Musical worship is a form of idolatry. Within it can exist an IDOLATRY of MUSICAL TALENT—just think about what that means … I know you can figure it out.

Please, please do not confuse man-ordained “musical worship” with the divinely ordained assembly of the saints as a Bible school in which God’s truth is taught and learned—i.e., by teaching and admonishing one another—and fellow believers partake of the bread to commemorate Christ’s suffering and death on the cross.

Yes, and members are not to be faulted for being misled, there exists a different form of idolatry. Nonetheless, it is idolatrous and the result is the same.

Read the article below.

Donnie</font>
The semicolons are not in the original text. No punctuation is.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

April 2nd, 2006, 1:57 am #4

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Brian,

Have you checked other translations? Just to mention a couple, even the following translations [ ]:
  • “[11] It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, [12]to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up” [N.I.V.]

    “[11] He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. [12]Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ” [New Living Translation]

    “[11] and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers, [12] unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,” [Young’s Literal Translation]
Hope this helps.

Donnie </font>
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

April 2nd, 2006, 3:02 am #5

Of course not, everyone knew that the musicators were WOMEN. Not before the time of David--who may have had problems--did males become singers and instrument players.

We are told that the women were almost always prostitutes: one resource says that when MALES fell into it they were "drunk or perverts." There is no other meaning in the istory of the world.

The term Pastor-Teachers is written so that it is probably a hyphenated term: the pastors or shepherds fed by teaching the WORD as it had been taught. If you watch those singy clappy types I am surprised how so many wear scraggly beards when they REALLY cannot grow one. That and long hair was the mark of the musicians.

For anyone Biblically literate it is perfectly clear that God associates music with trying to silence God's Word. That is why Lucifer (Zoe) is called the "beast and female instructing principle." In the Greek world of religious festivals the women could not PERFORM so emasculated males dressed and acted like females. When you see the singing, clapping and body motion you know that the guy is leading you into--as pagans and Carol Wimber confesses--a sexual like CLIMATIC experience with God.

It is amazingly amazing that grown (?) men can read clear text and see blank verse: that is the mark of STRONG DELUSIONS. When you see males beginning to musicate then you know that a Mother Goddess Agent has landed right on time: they were called LOCUSTS with scorpion stingers in their tails.

Jesus didn't have to die to found a system of pagan religionism which is ABSOLUTELY marked by any kind of performance music which every literate person at the time of Paul knew to be a sign of madness and perversion. God is making them dance on a string and they may never be able to stop. Let's pray.
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Joined: September 18th, 2005, 4:26 am

April 2nd, 2006, 4:57 pm #6

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…” Notice the semi-colon in the above passage:

<ol>[*]Apostles; [semi-colon]
[*]Prophets; [semi-colon]
[*]Evangelists; [semi-colon]
[*]Pastors-Teachers; [semi-colon]

[/list]Here’s a brief explanation of “pastors and teachers.” This phrase is not in reference to the modern-day “pastor” of some religious faiths who is the “leader” of that particular faith. Rather, as clearly defined in a different role [as the semi-colon indicates], the provision for having “pastors-teachers” [hyphenated for illustration] is associated with the role of [a plurality of] elders in a congregation. Notice certain qualifications of elders:
  • <font color=red>“[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (I Timothy 3, KJV] </font>
(I think the explanation above is necessary in order not to get side-tracked into the “pastors” issue.) Now, let’s look at the entire passage dealing with the one church and the provision that Christ has made “… for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”:
  • <font color=red> [1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4, KJV)
    </font>
The point is to show that Christ has made ample provision for the furtherance and edification of his church. For man to add to what Christ has provided, which is sufficient for the needs of the church, is abhorrent to God and insulting to His wisdom and authority.

The office of “worship leader,” which man has devised for a man or a woman to lead the congregation into God’s HOLY presence with all the rah-rah-rah, rhythmic clapping, concert-like hand-waving and body movements, irreverent and AWE-less behavior—is UNAUTHORIZED.

Worship is never a ministry! Musical worship does not exist—read the Holy Scripture and it’s nowhere to be found. Musical worship is a form of idolatry. Within it can exist an IDOLATRY of MUSICAL TALENT—just think about what that means … I know you can figure it out.

Please, please do not confuse man-ordained “musical worship” with the divinely ordained assembly of the saints as a Bible school in which God’s truth is taught and learned—i.e., by teaching and admonishing one another—and fellow believers partake of the bread to commemorate Christ’s suffering and death on the cross.

Yes, and members are not to be faulted for being misled, there exists a different form of idolatry. Nonetheless, it is idolatrous and the result is the same.

Read the article below.

Donnie</font>
Reading the context of Ephesians 4 and noting the phrase Christ's "GIFT" in verse 7; then reading down to the verse you mentioned, verse 11; ...

now if we carefully compare scripture with scripture and these verses in Ephesians 4 with what we read in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11,28; it is quite apparent that these things mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 were GIFTS of the Holy Spirit that were MIRACULOUS appointments and we also know such things ceased when the written word was completed and the apostles who could only bestow these gifts by the laying on of their hands (Acts 8) passed away.

I tire easily and am quite sure you have a Bible handy so I will just post references and allow you to look up the passages.

have a great week all, life is good.
JC
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Brian
Brian

April 2nd, 2006, 9:30 pm #7

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Brian,

Have you checked other translations? Just to mention a couple, even the following translations [ ]:
  • “[11] It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, [12]to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up” [N.I.V.]

    “[11] He is the one who gave these gifts to the church: the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, and the pastors and teachers. [12]Their responsibility is to equip God's people to do his work and build up the church, the body of Christ” [New Living Translation]

    “[11] and He gave some [as] apostles, and some [as] prophets, and some [as] proclaimers of good news, and some [as] shepherds and teachers, [12] unto the perfecting of the saints, for a work of ministration, for a building up of the body of the Christ,” [Young’s Literal Translation]
Hope this helps.

Donnie </font>
Regardless of what punctuation the translators of the various translations have inserted into the text... the fact is that there is no punctuation in the original text. So it's really pointless to base an argument on what punctuation you find.

Hope that helps!
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Lee Gullism
Lee Gullism

April 3rd, 2006, 2:26 am #8

Reading the context of Ephesians 4 and noting the phrase Christ's "GIFT" in verse 7; then reading down to the verse you mentioned, verse 11; ...

now if we carefully compare scripture with scripture and these verses in Ephesians 4 with what we read in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11,28; it is quite apparent that these things mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 were GIFTS of the Holy Spirit that were MIRACULOUS appointments and we also know such things ceased when the written word was completed and the apostles who could only bestow these gifts by the laying on of their hands (Acts 8) passed away.

I tire easily and am quite sure you have a Bible handy so I will just post references and allow you to look up the passages.

have a great week all, life is good.
JC
Ken-
"We are told that the women were almost always prostitutes: one resource says that when MALES fell into it they were "drunk or perverts." There is no other meaning in the istory of the world."

We "are told"??? Told by whom?
"one resource says..." What resource?
"There is no other meaning..." I'm sure that's right, I mean, why do we even have a Bible?

One day, you people are going to see what he's doing. One day....

By the way, I'm sure your friend and supporter PPB appreciates being called what you called her.

You're losing it more everyday.
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Ken
Ken

April 3rd, 2006, 3:09 pm #9

C Gull, you are droping bombs again:

Our lady SCHOLAR to whom you should listens know that she is not a RELIGIOUS MUSICATOR.
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Lee Gullism
Lee Gullism

April 4th, 2006, 12:50 am #10


Sad what passes for a "scholar" these days.
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