“Worship Leader”: “The idols are different but the results are the same”

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

April 4th, 2006, 11:15 pm #11

Lee, you and a few ditto heads qualify for the word FOOL: predestinated by God for that necessary role of SEED PICKER meaning the Bird Demons.

I asked God if I could have permission to label you a FOOL?

The message I THINK I heard was: "No, Ken, not yet: he needs more training to qualify."
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

April 5th, 2006, 10:06 am #12

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>“And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ…” Notice the semi-colon in the above passage:

<ol>[*]Apostles; [semi-colon]
[*]Prophets; [semi-colon]
[*]Evangelists; [semi-colon]
[*]Pastors-Teachers; [semi-colon]

[/list]Here’s a brief explanation of “pastors and teachers.” This phrase is not in reference to the modern-day “pastor” of some religious faiths who is the “leader” of that particular faith. Rather, as clearly defined in a different role [as the semi-colon indicates], the provision for having “pastors-teachers” [hyphenated for illustration] is associated with the role of [a plurality of] elders in a congregation. Notice certain qualifications of elders:
  • <font color=red>“[1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.” (I Timothy 3, KJV] </font>
(I think the explanation above is necessary in order not to get side-tracked into the “pastors” issue.) Now, let’s look at the entire passage dealing with the one church and the provision that Christ has made “… for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ”:
  • <font color=red> [1] I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, [2] With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; [3] Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. [4] There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; [5] One Lord, one faith, one baptism, [6] One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. [7] But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. [8] Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

    [11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: [16] From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.” (Ephesians 4, KJV)
    </font>
The point is to show that Christ has made ample provision for the furtherance and edification of his church. For man to add to what Christ has provided, which is sufficient for the needs of the church, is abhorrent to God and insulting to His wisdom and authority.

The office of “worship leader,” which man has devised for a man or a woman to lead the congregation into God’s HOLY presence with all the rah-rah-rah, rhythmic clapping, concert-like hand-waving and body movements, irreverent and AWE-less behavior—is UNAUTHORIZED.

Worship is never a ministry! Musical worship does not exist—read the Holy Scripture and it’s nowhere to be found. Musical worship is a form of idolatry. Within it can exist an IDOLATRY of MUSICAL TALENT—just think about what that means … I know you can figure it out.

Please, please do not confuse man-ordained “musical worship” with the divinely ordained assembly of the saints as a Bible school in which God’s truth is taught and learned—i.e., by teaching and admonishing one another—and fellow believers partake of the bread to commemorate Christ’s suffering and death on the cross.

Yes, and members are not to be faulted for being misled, there exists a different form of idolatry. Nonetheless, it is idolatrous and the result is the same.

Read the article below.

Donnie</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Argument #1—“The semicolons are not in the original text. No punctuation is. ”

Response #1—Commas or “as” or “to be” or “the” will do as well. (I cited three more translations which prove that even without the semi-colons, the original text support the fact that there were only 4 [NOT 5] groups listed.)

Argument #2—“Regardless of what punctuation the translators of the various translations have inserted into the text... the fact is that there is no punctuation in the original text. So it's really pointless to base an argument on what punctuation you find.”

Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:
  • (1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
  • (1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
  • (1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
  • (1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as
Did you notice in the expressions above? In all cases, (5) is not included because the original text does not list #5.

Even without the punctuation, the 4 cited [of numerous] translations consistently indicate, based on the ORIGINAL TEXT, 4 groups responsible: “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.”

King James Version: “And he gave—:

<ol>[*]some [,] apostles
[*]some [,] prophets
[*]some [,] evangelists
[*]some [,] pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some[,] apostles
[*]some[,] prophets
[*]some[,] evangelists
[*]some[,] pastors
[*]some[,] teachers

[/list]New International Version [NIV]: “It was he who gave—

<ol>[*]some to be apostles
[*]some to be prophets
[*]some to be evangelists
[*]some to be pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some to be apostles
[*]some to be prophets
[*]some to be evangelists
[*]some to be pastors
[*]some to be teachers

[/list]New Living Translation: “He is the one who gave these gifts to the church—

<ol>[*]the apostles
[*]the prophets
[*]the evangelists
[*]the pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]the apostles
[*]the prophets
[*]the evangelists
[*]the pastors
[*]the teachers

[/list]Young’s Literal Translation: “and He gave—

<ol>[*]some [as] apostles
[*]some [as] prophets
[*]some [as] proclaimers of good news
[*]some [as] shepherds and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some [as] apostles
[*]some [as] prophets
[*]some [as] proclaimers of good news
[*]some [as] shepherds
[*]some [as] teachers

[/list]In all cases, “pastors-teachers” is one entity—NOT two separate entities. This entity is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops) who are qualified to teach—remember that “apt to teach” is one of the qualifications of the elders?

Besides, the main point in the article is that the man-appointed “WORSHIP LEADER” is certainly NOT one of these provisions for the edification of the church.

Donnie</font>
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

April 5th, 2006, 9:46 pm #13

Reading the context of Ephesians 4 and noting the phrase Christ's "GIFT" in verse 7; then reading down to the verse you mentioned, verse 11; ...

now if we carefully compare scripture with scripture and these verses in Ephesians 4 with what we read in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11,28; it is quite apparent that these things mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 were GIFTS of the Holy Spirit that were MIRACULOUS appointments and we also know such things ceased when the written word was completed and the apostles who could only bestow these gifts by the laying on of their hands (Acts 8) passed away.

I tire easily and am quite sure you have a Bible handy so I will just post references and allow you to look up the passages.

have a great week all, life is good.
JC
I agree that the best way to understand scripture is
with other scripture. On the issues of miraculous gifts
let us read I Corinthians 1:5-9 where the Apostle Paul
says that the gifts bestowed on the Corinthian Church are
operational until the return of our Lord Jesus Christ. In
verse 7 he states that the church has every spiritual gift
that is needed. Paul is referring to the spiritual gifts
outlined in chapters 12 and 14.

On the issue of laying on of hands, there is nothing magical
or special about such activity. Peter states in Acts 3:12 that
it is not the power that is inside of man that miracles occur
but it is by the name of Jesus Christ (verse 16). Laying on of
hands have three functions:

1) to impart blessings on an individual like Christ has done to
the children brought to him.

2) As an act of commissioning service for the church like Paul
and Barnabas (Acts 13:2 and 3).

3) As a symbolic of the use of a human vessel to demonstrate
the work of the Holy Spirit.

The laying on of hands doesn't work like electricity where a
bolt of energy transfers to another person, but rather God
does the work Himself through the agent of a believing servant.
As far as I know this is still true for today because mankind
will always be in need of help through divine intervention.

God bless my fellow believers,

Wordkeeper
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Donnie
Donnie

April 5th, 2006, 10:56 pm #14

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Argument #1—“The semicolons are not in the original text. No punctuation is. ”

Response #1—Commas or “as” or “to be” or “the” will do as well. (I cited three more translations which prove that even without the semi-colons, the original text support the fact that there were only 4 [NOT 5] groups listed.)

Argument #2—“Regardless of what punctuation the translators of the various translations have inserted into the text... the fact is that there is no punctuation in the original text. So it's really pointless to base an argument on what punctuation you find.”

Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:
  • (1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
  • (1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
  • (1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
  • (1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as
Did you notice in the expressions above? In all cases, (5) is not included because the original text does not list #5.

Even without the punctuation, the 4 cited [of numerous] translations consistently indicate, based on the ORIGINAL TEXT, 4 groups responsible: “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.”

King James Version: “And he gave—:

<ol>[*]some [,] apostles
[*]some [,] prophets
[*]some [,] evangelists
[*]some [,] pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some[,] apostles
[*]some[,] prophets
[*]some[,] evangelists
[*]some[,] pastors
[*]some[,] teachers

[/list]New International Version [NIV]: “It was he who gave—

<ol>[*]some to be apostles
[*]some to be prophets
[*]some to be evangelists
[*]some to be pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some to be apostles
[*]some to be prophets
[*]some to be evangelists
[*]some to be pastors
[*]some to be teachers

[/list]New Living Translation: “He is the one who gave these gifts to the church—

<ol>[*]the apostles
[*]the prophets
[*]the evangelists
[*]the pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]the apostles
[*]the prophets
[*]the evangelists
[*]the pastors
[*]the teachers

[/list]Young’s Literal Translation: “and He gave—

<ol>[*]some [as] apostles
[*]some [as] prophets
[*]some [as] proclaimers of good news
[*]some [as] shepherds and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some [as] apostles
[*]some [as] prophets
[*]some [as] proclaimers of good news
[*]some [as] shepherds
[*]some [as] teachers

[/list]In all cases, “pastors-teachers” is one entity—NOT two separate entities. This entity is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops) who are qualified to teach—remember that “apt to teach” is one of the qualifications of the elders?

Besides, the main point in the article is that the man-appointed “WORSHIP LEADER” is certainly NOT one of these provisions for the edification of the church.

Donnie</font>
Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:
  • (1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
  • (1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
  • (1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
  • (1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as
This is a better argument. Now, where is the proof for the following:

This entity [the pastor-teacher] is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops)
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William
William

April 6th, 2006, 1:49 am #15

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Argument #1—“The semicolons are not in the original text. No punctuation is. ”

Response #1—Commas or “as” or “to be” or “the” will do as well. (I cited three more translations which prove that even without the semi-colons, the original text support the fact that there were only 4 [NOT 5] groups listed.)

Argument #2—“Regardless of what punctuation the translators of the various translations have inserted into the text... the fact is that there is no punctuation in the original text. So it's really pointless to base an argument on what punctuation you find.”

Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:
  • (1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
  • (1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
  • (1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
  • (1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as
Did you notice in the expressions above? In all cases, (5) is not included because the original text does not list #5.

Even without the punctuation, the 4 cited [of numerous] translations consistently indicate, based on the ORIGINAL TEXT, 4 groups responsible: “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ.”

King James Version: “And he gave—:

<ol>[*]some [,] apostles
[*]some [,] prophets
[*]some [,] evangelists
[*]some [,] pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some[,] apostles
[*]some[,] prophets
[*]some[,] evangelists
[*]some[,] pastors
[*]some[,] teachers

[/list]New International Version [NIV]: “It was he who gave—

<ol>[*]some to be apostles
[*]some to be prophets
[*]some to be evangelists
[*]some to be pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some to be apostles
[*]some to be prophets
[*]some to be evangelists
[*]some to be pastors
[*]some to be teachers

[/list]New Living Translation: “He is the one who gave these gifts to the church—

<ol>[*]the apostles
[*]the prophets
[*]the evangelists
[*]the pastors and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]the apostles
[*]the prophets
[*]the evangelists
[*]the pastors
[*]the teachers

[/list]Young’s Literal Translation: “and He gave—

<ol>[*]some [as] apostles
[*]some [as] prophets
[*]some [as] proclaimers of good news
[*]some [as] shepherds and teachers[/b]
[/list]<ol>------- NOT -------
[*]some [as] apostles
[*]some [as] prophets
[*]some [as] proclaimers of good news
[*]some [as] shepherds
[*]some [as] teachers

[/list]In all cases, “pastors-teachers” is one entity—NOT two separate entities. This entity is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops) who are qualified to teach—remember that “apt to teach” is one of the qualifications of the elders?

Besides, the main point in the article is that the man-appointed “WORSHIP LEADER” is certainly NOT one of these provisions for the edification of the church.

Donnie</font>
You wrote:

Besides, the main point in the article is that the man-appointed “WORSHIP LEADER” is certainly NOT one of these provisions for the edification of the church.


I will agree that the Bible does not mention a worship leader, but it also does not mention a "Song leader" being used in Worship. Does that make the use of a "Song leader" unscriptural?

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Brian
Brian

April 6th, 2006, 3:10 am #16

Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:
  • (1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
  • (1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
  • (1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
  • (1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as
This is a better argument. Now, where is the proof for the following:

This entity [the pastor-teacher] is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops)
I'm not sure how the message got Donnie's name on it. I wrote it.

Response #2—There’s really no choice but to be very technical about it. Parallelism in grammar is extremely important in dividing into sub-units or into sub-sections—good examples of which would be words or expressions as follows:


(1) some … (2) some … (3) some … (4) some
(1) some to be … (2) some to be … (3) some to be … (4) some to be
(1) the … (2) the … (3) the … (4) the
(1) some as … (2) some as … (3) some as … (4) some as
This is a better argument. Now, where is the proof for the following:

This entity [the pastor-teacher] is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops)
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

April 6th, 2006, 12:17 pm #17

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Donnie’s Previous Statement: “In all cases, ‘pastors-teachers’ is one entity—NOT two separate entities. This entity is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops) who are qualified to teach—remember that “apt to teach” is one of the qualifications of the elders?”

Brian's Question: “Now, where is the proof for the following: ‘This entity [the pastor-teacher] is a group of elders (or shepherds or bishops)’”

Answer:
  • In the New Testament, the following words are used interchangeably to refer to the same group of MEN who lead a local congregation: (1) pastors, (2) shepherds, (3) elders, (4) bishops, or (5) presbyters.

    [I’ll explain further later on….]
</font>
  • <font color=black size=3 face=times new roman>In the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke, John), there are numerous references to the sheep, the shepherd or shepherds, the flock, shepherding over the flock, shepherd of the sheep, etc.

    “Elders of the church” is mentioned in Acts 20:17. Paul admonished the elders to: “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood (v. 28). [Actually, “overseers” is another description of one of the responsibilities of the elders.] Of course, how can we forget that our Lord Jesus is “the great shepherd of the sheep” (Heb. 13:20)? I Peter 2:25—“For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”

    I Peter 5 clearly explains the role of the elders (shepherds or pastors or bishops or overseers) of the local church and how it is related to that of the Chief Shepherd and Bishop: “[1] The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: [2] Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; [3] Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. [4] And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.”

    Ordaining “elders in every city” is mentioned in Titus 1:5. The qualifications of a bishop or elder are mentioned as follows:
    • [1] Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; [2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; . . . [5] For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee: [6] If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly. [7] For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; [8] But a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, just, holy, temperate; [9] Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers.
    I Timothy 3:
    • [1] This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. [2] A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; [3] Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; [4] One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; [5] (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?) [6] Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil. [7] Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.
    Let’s not forget that the office of “WORSHIP LEADER” [keyword is “worship”] is man-made and man-authorized. After all, worship is a personal and an individual matter. In fact, “worship service” is not outlined in the New Testament other than we are to worship God in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). Yes, there is a gathering of the disciples to “break bread” and to study God’s Word—teaching and admonishing each other.</font>
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on April 7th, 2006, 1:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Brian
Brian

April 6th, 2006, 11:02 pm #18

I'd suggest that you do more that just explain. Proof is required.
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PPB
PPB

April 7th, 2006, 12:15 am #19

You wrote:

Besides, the main point in the article is that the man-appointed “WORSHIP LEADER” is certainly NOT one of these provisions for the edification of the church.


I will agree that the Bible does not mention a worship leader, but it also does not mention a "Song leader" being used in Worship. Does that make the use of a "Song leader" unscriptural?
William,

That analogy just doesn't work and needs to stop being used. A song leader is NOT a worship leader. Let's look at your analogy...

Song leader -
A requirement when any two or more sing together. A person who begins the first note of a song so that others may follow. Provides the song and verse for others. A person who's role is to keep order in the praising of God - to prevent chaos. Someone who helps pace the song so that everyone knows when to sing the next word. Literally it means to be a temporary guide during a song, a helper, a servant. It is not a "leadership" roll, but is shared by any male Christian brave enough sing in front of others. A necessity.

Fact: Song leaders existed in Jesus' time. How do we know? Well, unless all the early Christian's had the ability to read each other's minds, someone had to start the song off. It was usually done by a elder or older deacon (according to 1st/2nd century writings) and done in an orderly fashion without the use of instruments. We also know that the assemblies were extremely orderly, quiet, simple, and reflective. Any dancing, high spirits, instruments, and clapping were considered satanic and paganistic. (Why doesn't that still apply today when we still have pagan religions?)

Worship Leader - (per job descriptions and the many worship leader websites)
A position of authority over the singing and entertainment portion of the services. Used when services incorporate more than mere praising through song. The worship leader's main job is to enthuse the crowd with emotion and spirit via theatrics and enterainment. To evoke passion beyond that which was originally intended by Christ. To add to the orderly and simple assembly described in the NT. To bring about "feelings" that are not normally felt with the regular psalms or songs.

Facts about the job - to attract members that are not comfortable with the type of assembly described in the NT - like the ones held by Jesus and the Apostles.
Reason - the original Word of God is not inspiring enough or entertaining enough to hold the attention of the masses. A gimick is needed to get their attention centered back on Christ.

So let's compare:

A simple job that any Christian accepts when beginning the first note of a song for others to follow.
VS
a position intended to create, design and provide entertainment and merriment by adding theatrics/instruments in order to make the basic assembly more exciting and less scriptural based.

Don't see the analogy there...
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Lee Gullism
Lee Gullism

April 7th, 2006, 6:40 am #20

HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA !!!!!!!!!!!!

PPB-
This is your best work yet! Keep piling on your speculation, lying, and presumption and try to pass it off as scripture. It's amusing. Really.
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