Will not giving food and drink cause you to be cast alive into the lake of fire?

Anonymous
Anonymous

October 24th, 2011, 12:51 am #21

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brother Elliott, claims are valid. I'm one of those people whose advice is sought by members of congregations who are noticing and witnessing the subtle and gradual changes occurring before their eyes. You're not. And these changes are not even about instrumental music at first -- which we know so well is preceded by these "minor" changes, such as the implementation of the "Praise Team." Minor? But controversial and divisive!!![/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The issue is not so much with the titles of "song leader" vs. "Worship Leader" as it is with their roles and functions. Worship is an individual Christian's duty not only in private but also in the assembly. So, in your worship even in private, would you like a "worship leader" to be following you around ... or "leading" you all the time? I think not.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is no such animal in Scripture as someone being paid as the church's "Worship Leader" leading God's people into His HOLY presence. Well, maybe, there is. I can think of someone in the Old Testament -- Aaron. You can read about this in review in Acts 7. "[1] And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. [2] And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings<b>, which are in the ears of your wives, <b>of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. [3] And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron."</b></b> (Exodus 32)[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Worship" so programmed and executively "directed" and "produced" as we now see on TV, especially among the Charismatics, has become the standard and the norm for many religious groups; we now see this in certain mega congregations of the church of Christ.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]When the "worship period" is now comprised of and dominated by "musical worship" (some 60% of "religious" musicals and feel-good music and the remaining time being devoted to the teaching of God's truth and commemoration of His Son's death on the cross), then it's about time to question motives.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The "nitpicky, petty arguments about religious minutiae" are only the result of the unnecessary, controversial, subversive and divisive schemes and changes that are being promoted and advanced by the change agents.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You have it in reverse order, brother. ConcernedMembers is not finding fault with the church that Christ establised. Rather, is is that the change agents are finding fault with Christ's church. Why would they even attempt to restructure His church and acquire unscriptural teachings, beliefs and practices? Hmmm ... to the change agents, the church of Christ must not be good enough in meeting denominational and secular standards, is that it?[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Something for which the Bible is silent," did you say that? I think I've heard that before. The truth is that the Bible is NOT silent about marking those who cause divisions in the church. Who might they be? The change agents. Right!!![/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There has never been a command or directive from God, saying, "Thou shalt worship Me, the Lord thy God, with all thy inanimate, lifeless musical instruments." Never, not even in the Old Testament.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The purpose of the assembly of saints is to commemorate the sacrifice and death of Christ on the cross, as well as to teach and admonish one another so that the word of Christ indwells the Christian RICHLY. It is not about the "programmed worship" made for TV, whose executive director and producer is--you name it. Nor it is about the excellent performance of the Praise Team singing to and for the congregation.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I do not recall having said anything about the Inner City church in Nashville. A Praise Team is unnecessary and divisive, with or without women. Period. Besides, it seems unfair and unjust that only the "praise" group of men and women have the "privilege" of holding a personal microphone while the rest of the congregants do not deserve to be heard by God and other folks.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is Dave Fields who keeps bringing up the "Jesus sang a hymn" issue. Nonetheless, it is not altogether futile because we can find out that a hymn can be recited and spoken. It is not a musical, brother.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Elders are not faultless, brother. In fact, they're still to seek God's counsel regarding spiritual matters. It is spiritually unwise for elders to spend $50,000 or more annually just on salaries (plus other benefits) of the "Worship Leader" alone: (1) for him to wag his arms through the musical worship period and (2) for him and his minions, the musical group, to REHEARSE "worship" beforehand. Custodial work is necessary manual labor. You "work for food," don't you, brother? Well, maybe not, but hopefully, you see my point. Unless the designated "worship leader" is incapable of laboring and toiling with his hands, his "spiritual" service should be voluntary.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]About your final point: Direct your admonition to the sowers of discord--the change agents. And, no, I am not wasting my precious time, even though I have a full-time secular job. While it is true that we all should seek the lost and that the kingdom of Christ is going to prevail anyway regardless of the culture-driven schemes of the change agents to "grow the church"--which has been unsuccessful and causing division in the body of Christ, ConcernedMembers is obligated to inform peaceful congregations and individual Christians about the change agents and their mission. So does the Bible say: BEWARE!!![/color]</li>[/list]
[. . .]
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on October 24th, 2011, 7:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 24th, 2011, 8:35 am #22

Ken calling Sonny "Shummy."
Nice Ken.

You are just a juvenile, Ken, in a worn out old body. That name calling proves it. Like the saying goes, if you can't squash the message, then go after the messenger.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave, you misquoted Ken. Did you lose your "granny" [reading] glasses? Anyway, try to figure out why I said that.

Speaking of name-calling, yours is really juvenile -- "You sinned" [for defending the truth or the church]; "You're a liar" [for not quoting me the way I wanted to be quoted]; etc.

You were doing quite well with presenting your viewpoints until this juvenile post of yours. So, to get you back on track, I would like for you to comment on one of the points I presented in response to Sonny Elliott. (One point at a time may be the best way for us to handle controversial issues.)

As an elder of a congregation in Clemson, SC, how would you respond to this item:[/color]
  • 13. [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Elders are not faultless, brother. In fact, they're still to seek God's counsel regarding spiritual matters. It is spiritually unwise for elders to spend $50,000 or more annually just on salaries (plus other benefits) of the "Worship Leader" alone: (1) for him to wag his arms through the musical worship period and (2) for him and his minions, the musical group, to REHEARSE "worship" beforehand. Custodial work is necessary manual labor. You "work for food," don't you, brother? Well, maybe not, but hopefully, you see my point. Unless the designated "worship leader" is incapable of laboring and toiling with his hands, his "spiritual" service should be voluntary.[/color]</li>
Quote
Like
Share

Sonny
Sonny

October 25th, 2011, 1:54 am #23

Brother Cruz,

In answer to #13, again, it all depends. On what? On the details.

If a "worship minister" (or whatever title is designated) is receiving a salary that size only for what they do on Sunday in a worship assembly, then it sounds like too much funds.

However, if that person is also involved in ministry during the week, then what's the beef? I could see a larger congregation finding plenty of uses for a person gifted in music.

1. He could work with the youth in the church hosting devotionals in his home.

2. He could start programs for troubled youth in the community where they come to the building after school one or more days a week and learn how to better sing and develop their voice and heart for God and worship.

3. He could go to nursing homes regularly and sing.

4. He could go to hospitals regularly and sing. I cannot remember precisely when this was but was within the past year, but I was visiting a family at a hospital and noticed on my way to their room after getting off the elevator a youth group singing in the waiting area. They were a very good black group and could be heard through the halls praising God and edifying those families.

5. He could go to prisons regularly to worship with them and encourage them.

6. He could plan worship for Sunday mornings and Sunday evenings.

7. He could plan an option for worship in song on Wednesday evenings for those who would choose this over a Bible class.

8. He could also minister in areas outside of singing, such as helping with benevolence (distributing food boxes, etc.).

9. He could follow-up with visitors from the past Sunday and pray with them and invite them back.

10. He could organize a weekly Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday ladies morning Bible class and devotional.

11. He could organize a weekly Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, or Friday senior saints morning Bible class and devotional.

12. He could ???

There might be plenty for him to do during the week in the community using his gifts to glorify Christ!

I know an "Associate Minister" in Missouri who teaches in the prisons every Monday, Tuesday, and Thursday evening, teaches a Wednesday morning ladies Bible class, teaches teen classes on Sunday mornings and Wednesday evenings, and preaches many Sunday evenings and occasional mornings, and is a very good teacher and godly man. I ALSO HAVE OBSERVED SALARIED MINISTERS WHETHER PREACHING, ASSOCIATE, YOUTH, ETC. WHO DID NOT SEEM TO DO VERY MUCH. It all depends on the situation brother.

IF, you have gone to the minister about it, and not received a satisfactory answer, and gone to the elders and not received a satisfactory answer, then you have 2 options. One, live with it and continue worshiping at the given congregation, or go somewhere you can worship in peace.

It seems as though you have not been at peace with Madison for over a decade. As I stated to you over a year ago, I pray that you find peace. Sincerely.

-Sonny
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 25th, 2011, 6:13 am #24

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brother Elliott:

At the outset, let's clarify the role of the Office of "Worship Leader." Such clarification is very important to consider because such a concept did not originate from the Holy Scripture. We can make that distinction ("Worship Leader") from other offices or roles that Christ gave to the church through its ages: apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers (or elders)--Eph. 4:11.

We've already mentioned the origin of this office, confined to the Charismatic Movement initially; but it is now common among a wide range of denominational churches. Now, even certain congregations of the church of Christ have acquired or imitated this unscriptural role or office of a church leader, the "Worship Leader," to lead or direct the congregants or God's followers into His HOLY presence. For a congregation of the church of Christ to minimize that role to plain "leading singing" [and that's all] is deception at its highest.

The truth is that it is another one of those gimmicks or schemes by the Change Agents to subvert the church the Lord established in order to conform to denominational or secular standards. The change agents are so subtle and slick:[/color]

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Let's call him/her the "Worship Leader'--he controls it all [including the time when the sermonette will be delivered] as he is the executive producer and the executive director of the entire 'worship programming' made for TV." [/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Oh, we have another name for our choir--it's the 'Praise Team'--that sounds non-denominational and less controversial, it will be accepted with little or no resistance."[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Oh, we are still for baptism; we do not oppose baptism by immersion--EXCEPT that let's NOT stress the truth that it is a burial and resurrection with Christ so that past sins are remitted in His blood and so that the converted individual begins newness of life. We just have to accept the Baptist's baptism that an individual who has faith/believed automatically becomes a Chrisian; then, he is baptized later."[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]OK ... the above are just a few samples of the "Acts of the Change Agents" [this is different from the 'Acts of the Apostles."][/color]
</li>[/list][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]So, what's the beef? It all goes back to the role of "leading or directing God's followers into His HOLY presence." By the way, being "gifted in music" is a natural gift--NOT a spiritual gift--not any more spiritual than having a naturally muscular body build.

I need to make a comment about your item number 6: I've already referred to the "worship programming" made for TV with its executive director/producer being the holder of that office. The assembly of the saints has lost its main purpose in this situation, i.e., to commemorate the Lord's suffering and death and to let the word of Christ indwell the Christian RICHLY by teaching and admonition. While order is desirable, spontaneity cannot be equated with "programmed" worship.

All the other items a regular Christian or follower of God can do in service for the Master, wouldn't you think? They're what the Scripture refers to as "good works" in addition to "faith." Should a regular Christian or God's servant, then, not be financially compensated for serving his Master if the "Worship Leader" were for the same spiritual services?

Frankly, brother Elliott, your last statements have no effect on me whatsoever. I'm at peace with myself and my God. I'm glad for the service I have for the Lord by letting it be known that there are those operating in the brotherhood--the Change Agents--who are finding fault with and are critical of the church, the body of Christ, and by letting the world know that the bride of Christ is not good enough to be His because of what they perceive as its imperfections and it, therefore, is badly in need of transformation, restructuring, modification.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Dave
Dave

October 26th, 2011, 2:45 am #25

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,
....Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it
....unto one of the least of these my brethren,
....ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
....Depart from me, ye cursed,
....into everlasting fire,
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred,
....and ye gave me no meat:
....I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

http://piney.com/Matthew.25-40.Ye.Have. ... to.Me.html

Because in Amos, the people had David's musical performance IN the temple Christ prophesied that their songs in the temple would be turned into howlings.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
....that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread,
....nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
....they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Christ in Isaiah had the same warning about those who used musical instruments in their religious festivals:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine,
....are in their feasts: [religious festivals]
....but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
....because they have no knowledge:
....and their honourable men are famished,
....and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
....and opened her mouth without measure:
....and their glory, and their multitude,
....and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Sublimis: B. In partic., of language, lofty, elevated, sublime (freq. in Quint.): sublimia carmina, Juv. 7, 28: verbum, Quint. 8, 3, 18: clara et sublimia verba, id. ib.: oratio,
Action versus Submission.

Carmen I. In gen., a tune, song, air, lay, strain, note, sound, both vocal and instrumental. Oratory.
II. Esp., a composition in verse, a poem; poetry, verse, song, whether in a broader sense, of every kind of poetic production, epic, dramatic
With allusion to playing on the cithara: [guitar]


Don't be surprised that people WANT you to be deceived.</font>
Donnie said "...2) for him and his minions, the musical group, to REHEARSE "worship" beforehand."

Yep, you got it Donnie now. Calling your brothers and sisters "minions.

You are now in the same class and boat as Ken....juvenile.
Quote
Share

Dave
Dave

October 26th, 2011, 4:22 am #26

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,
....Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it
....unto one of the least of these my brethren,
....ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
....Depart from me, ye cursed,
....into everlasting fire,
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred,
....and ye gave me no meat:
....I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

http://piney.com/Matthew.25-40.Ye.Have. ... to.Me.html

Because in Amos, the people had David's musical performance IN the temple Christ prophesied that their songs in the temple would be turned into howlings.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
....that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread,
....nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
....they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Christ in Isaiah had the same warning about those who used musical instruments in their religious festivals:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine,
....are in their feasts: [religious festivals]
....but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
....because they have no knowledge:
....and their honourable men are famished,
....and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
....and opened her mouth without measure:
....and their glory, and their multitude,
....and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Sublimis: B. In partic., of language, lofty, elevated, sublime (freq. in Quint.): sublimia carmina, Juv. 7, 28: verbum, Quint. 8, 3, 18: clara et sublimia verba, id. ib.: oratio,
Action versus Submission.

Carmen I. In gen., a tune, song, air, lay, strain, note, sound, both vocal and instrumental. Oratory.
II. Esp., a composition in verse, a poem; poetry, verse, song, whether in a broader sense, of every kind of poetic production, epic, dramatic
With allusion to playing on the cithara: [guitar]


Don't be surprised that people WANT you to be deceived.</font>
Donnie said "...because of what they perceive as its imperfections and it, therefore, is badly in need of transformation, restructuring, modification."


So the church that YOU like and PREFER is the same as that of the first century church? Nothing, not one thing has changed?
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 26th, 2011, 4:27 am #27

Donnie said "...2) for him and his minions, the musical group, to REHEARSE "worship" beforehand."

Yep, you got it Donnie now. Calling your brothers and sisters "minions.

You are now in the same class and boat as Ken....juvenile.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You call people names: "juvenile" ... "sinner" ... "liar" ... etc. I said that your name-calling (NOT YOU as a person) is what's really juvenile. That's the difference.

I probably should have referred to them as "co-worship leaders." Or, I should have referred to him as their "minion." What's so bad about that? Now, would you be terribly upset if I referred to you as a follower or disciple of the "change agents"? [I've already done it before, though.] Would that be name-calling?

Well, I notice that you keep evading the issue. Instead, you resort to discussing the price of eggs in China.

Perhaps this will challenge you: I think I have initiated a thread titled, "Contemporary Worship Choreography -- Made for TV or 'the Audience of One'"? To this thread, an author sent me an e-mail in response -- Dan Lucarini. Dan has written a book titled or subtitled: "Confessions of a Former Worship Leader" or "Why I Left the Contemporary Christian Music Movement."

Dan said, "Hey Donnie, I see you are still stirring up the 'worship' hornet nest! So am I. As a former worship leader, I knew exactly what the order of service you printed means. I chuckled at the 'VCC' (verse-chorus-repeat chorus). At the same time, seeing it again made me realize afresh how trite and manipulative is the entire exercise of 'planning worship.'"

You can read this at this source: WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK -- The Timeline (Part XII) [/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 26th, 2011, 4:47 am #28

Donnie said "...because of what they perceive as its imperfections and it, therefore, is badly in need of transformation, restructuring, modification."


So the church that YOU like and PREFER is the same as that of the first century church? Nothing, not one thing has changed?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

It appears that the more you read here about the "change agents," the more knowledgeable and informed and familiar you become with their schemes and activities. That's encouraging.

As far as matching what the New Testament teaches, the church of our Lord today teaches what the first century church believed and taught.

Unless we warn congregations and individual Christians in the brotherhood that the change agents are still {I think so) alive and kicking, they will continue criticizing the church for what it truly stands so as to make it appear that the church of Christ is no less denominational than the other religious groups. "We now have what we used to not -- instrumental music; we now have a choir -- join our denomination." Wow!!!

We're never talking about pews and carpets and kitchen sinks in the church building. Please read: "Quarantine the 'Changers' to Save Our Children" (by E. Claude Gardner). You will find at least 25 changes that the change agents have proposed for quite some time now.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Dave
Dave

October 26th, 2011, 5:00 am #29

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,
....Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it
....unto one of the least of these my brethren,
....ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
....Depart from me, ye cursed,
....into everlasting fire,
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred,
....and ye gave me no meat:
....I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

http://piney.com/Matthew.25-40.Ye.Have. ... to.Me.html

Because in Amos, the people had David's musical performance IN the temple Christ prophesied that their songs in the temple would be turned into howlings.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
....that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread,
....nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
....they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Christ in Isaiah had the same warning about those who used musical instruments in their religious festivals:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine,
....are in their feasts: [religious festivals]
....but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
....because they have no knowledge:
....and their honourable men are famished,
....and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
....and opened her mouth without measure:
....and their glory, and their multitude,
....and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Sublimis: B. In partic., of language, lofty, elevated, sublime (freq. in Quint.): sublimia carmina, Juv. 7, 28: verbum, Quint. 8, 3, 18: clara et sublimia verba, id. ib.: oratio,
Action versus Submission.

Carmen I. In gen., a tune, song, air, lay, strain, note, sound, both vocal and instrumental. Oratory.
II. Esp., a composition in verse, a poem; poetry, verse, song, whether in a broader sense, of every kind of poetic production, epic, dramatic
With allusion to playing on the cithara: [guitar]


Don't be surprised that people WANT you to be deceived.</font>
The church of today DOES teach what the first century church did 2000 years ago. NOW, you are getting it Donnie. Whether that church has a praise team or a capella congregational singing with four part harmony, a single song leader or a worship leader, or even an orchestra to accompany the singing....it has nothing to do with hindering the teaching and saving of the lost. Donnie, WHY.....did it take so long for you to admit that?
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 26th, 2011, 6:00 am #30

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You are partially factual. Only the first part of your assertion is factual -- that "the church of today DOES teach what the first century church did 2000 years ago." That's because virtually all churches of Christ comprise that body of believers.

The New Testament church that the Bible speaks about did not/does not indulge in mechanical music to "worship" and entertain God, did/does not have a choir, has never been given by Christ its founder the office of "Worship Leader" -- of course, through time, He gave apostles, prophets, evangelists and elders (like you--supposedly).

Your own congregation for whom you serve as an elder seems like a conservative church to me. But as an elder, you would rather have those extraneous, unnecessary, divisive activities and tendencies practiced in your own congregation. It may be time for you to let your congregation and fellow elders know that you are here arguing for the change agents and their cause.

The few congregations transformed by the change agents operating in the brotherhood have either become associated with the Disciples of Christ/Christian Church denomination or acquired by the Community Church. But that's the path they have chosen.

I'll take my word back from earlier. You have yet to learn a lot about the change agents that you are following, as well as about the Community Church Movement.

The more you speak, the more progressive/liberal you sound -- anything goes with you, Dave, and there's no stopping or limit as to how innovative you are with the truth ... so, it's all authorized by God, right, Dave?[/color]
Quote
Like
Share