Will not giving food and drink cause you to be cast alive into the lake of fire?

Dave
Dave

October 21st, 2011, 7:07 pm #11

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,
....Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it
....unto one of the least of these my brethren,
....ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
....Depart from me, ye cursed,
....into everlasting fire,
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred,
....and ye gave me no meat:
....I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

http://piney.com/Matthew.25-40.Ye.Have. ... to.Me.html

Because in Amos, the people had David's musical performance IN the temple Christ prophesied that their songs in the temple would be turned into howlings.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
....that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread,
....nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
....they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Christ in Isaiah had the same warning about those who used musical instruments in their religious festivals:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine,
....are in their feasts: [religious festivals]
....but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
....because they have no knowledge:
....and their honourable men are famished,
....and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
....and opened her mouth without measure:
....and their glory, and their multitude,
....and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Sublimis: B. In partic., of language, lofty, elevated, sublime (freq. in Quint.): sublimia carmina, Juv. 7, 28: verbum, Quint. 8, 3, 18: clara et sublimia verba, id. ib.: oratio,
Action versus Submission.

Carmen I. In gen., a tune, song, air, lay, strain, note, sound, both vocal and instrumental. Oratory.
II. Esp., a composition in verse, a poem; poetry, verse, song, whether in a broader sense, of every kind of poetic production, epic, dramatic
With allusion to playing on the cithara: [guitar]


Don't be surprised that people WANT you to be deceived.</font>
Donnie said "....when they "said an hymn," I imagine that there was not a single "Praise Team" woman there. [LOL -- is that how the RCC invented the "Choir Boys"?] By the way, where was Judas Iscariot at the time?

Hey Donnie, was there a stand alone song leader there? You know, like the one that leads your singing at the traditional "Amazing Grace" service? I can only imagine Peter being the one who led singing, with a suit and tie on...reaching for his pitch pipe handing out parchments to the other disciples with the words of the song written down. Maybe not, so since your song leader does much differently than the first century church example (assuming that they had a song leader at all), is he sinful? No. The sin lies, Domnie, when you berate the worship leader and praise team. You approve of your song leader, even though he doesn't imitate the first century church, but do not approve of the worship leader and praise team, which also is a change from the first century church. Neither the song leader nor praise team and worship leader have specific Scriptural directives on how to operate within a worship setting, other than "to sing." So why approve of one and condemn the other?


PREFERENCE!!!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 22nd, 2011, 1:07 am #12

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

Here you are concerned about your very high-profiled, man-appointed "Worship Leader" being berated? How can you ignore the main point of the discussion?

Ken has constantly accurately stated that they SPOKE a hymn, and he has quoted you source after source that when they "sang a hymn," the speaking or reciting or chanting of the hymn more closely resembled how they did it in the early church or the synagogue THAN the "Christian music" style of Michael Smith and his band.

Why do you think I [/color][BOLDED] "And when they had said an hymn? [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Well, now I know how true it is that "there is no blind as he who will not see."

Again, Dave, you want your "Worship Leader" and his "MUSICAL WORSHIP" extolled and respected and magnified. After all, he has a high-level position in the church, right, Dave? I see. It's no surprise that the "Worship Leader" is identified as THE [had to be the holy] ONE TO DIRECT THE CONGREGANTS INTO GOD'S HOLY PRESENCE!!! Again, WOW!!!

Oh, poor "song leader" who simply starts a song just so singing is in sync. He cannot multi-task -- as in imitating or simulating the noise of the "forbidden" instruments. He cannot do rhythmic handclapping, either. No, of course, he has no official, professional, business title. He's only doing one task. Whereas what??? The "Worship Leader" leads the congregants into God's holy presence (supposedly with AWE [not as in "awesome"] and in REVERENCE. The sad part, though, is that the "Worship Director" interprets "awe and reverence" as "cheerleading, rah-rah-rah, clap-clap-clap" while he sings, "Let Us Worship the Father."

Another sad part is that why the "Worship Leader" thinks he needs his worship changelings, the Praise Team, and segregates its members ["Praise Team" members, WOW!!!] from the rest of the congregations. I think that the W.L. is confused or is lacking in confidence. He is confused that the rest of the congregation is NOT the "Praise Team." Or, is he really lacking in confidence because he thinks or makes everybody think that he really needs the "Praise Team" to assist him.

But I know better. He is not lacking in confidence at all. He [or "she" in a few congregations that allow women leading men], indeed, and his Praise Team perform to and for the congregation. It is showtime!!! Holy Entertainment time!!!

I was not berating the individual -- quite different from when you, Dave, judge or condemn an individual. Let's just discuss the individual's teaching, OK?

Again, Ken is correct. The disciples did not perform at a Michael Smith religious concert. As accurately translated, the disciples "SAID A HYMN." [/color]
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Sonny
Sonny

October 22nd, 2011, 2:17 am #13

Really?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 22nd, 2011, 5:06 am #14

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Yes, really!!! If in doubt about today's identification or definition of "Worship Leader," research it. Having a "worship leader" [contrary to "worship" being an individual matter, whether alone or in a gathering] is undoubtedly associated with the "contemporary worship" concept.

"Contemporary worship is a form of Christian worship that emerged within Western evangelical Protestantism in the twentieth century. It was originally confined to the charismatic movement, but is now found to varying extents in a wide range of churches, including many that do not subscribe to a charismatic theology."

The Bible that I study mentions this in Ephesians 4:

"[9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
[10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ..."


Note that the passage does not say "and some, pastors; and some, teachers." Rather, it states the expression "pastors and teachers" in reference to "the elders" whose qualifications include being teachers of God's truth. The passage reflects the time references as when he selected the apostles, etc. Nowhere does it even hint that in the 20th or 21st century that there would be designated "Worship Leaders" to lead the congregants or His followers into God's holy presence.

You can also research for yourself the history of hymns in the synagogue or early church gatherings.[/color]
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Dave
Dave

October 22nd, 2011, 4:29 pm #15

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,
....Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it
....unto one of the least of these my brethren,
....ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
....Depart from me, ye cursed,
....into everlasting fire,
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred,
....and ye gave me no meat:
....I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

http://piney.com/Matthew.25-40.Ye.Have. ... to.Me.html

Because in Amos, the people had David's musical performance IN the temple Christ prophesied that their songs in the temple would be turned into howlings.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
....that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread,
....nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
....they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Christ in Isaiah had the same warning about those who used musical instruments in their religious festivals:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine,
....are in their feasts: [religious festivals]
....but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
....because they have no knowledge:
....and their honourable men are famished,
....and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
....and opened her mouth without measure:
....and their glory, and their multitude,
....and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Sublimis: B. In partic., of language, lofty, elevated, sublime (freq. in Quint.): sublimia carmina, Juv. 7, 28: verbum, Quint. 8, 3, 18: clara et sublimia verba, id. ib.: oratio,
Action versus Submission.

Carmen I. In gen., a tune, song, air, lay, strain, note, sound, both vocal and instrumental. Oratory.
II. Esp., a composition in verse, a poem; poetry, verse, song, whether in a broader sense, of every kind of poetic production, epic, dramatic
With allusion to playing on the cithara: [guitar]


Don't be surprised that people WANT you to be deceived.</font>
If it is SPEAKING a hymn, as you and Ken claim from the first century church then why have the song leader for your traditional service? Why the four part harmony? Why sing it at all? Just SPEAK it!
Sounds like ye olde forked tongue. Both services, contemporary and traditional, SING the hymn as interpreted by the Word. You don't like the Worship Leader nor the praise team, but you give high fives for your single song leader. If your song leader doesn't want to have a praise team or clap or lift holy hands to God, then fine. That is HIS choice and yours to worship that way. YOU sin when you put down what you don't PREFER.
Hey Donnie, you said "Another sad part is that why the "Worship Leader" thinks he needs his worship changelings, the Praise Team, and segregates its members ["Praise Team" members, WOW!!!] from the rest of the congregations."

The worship leader no more segregates himself from the rest of the congregation than your single song leader does. Some praise teams sit up front with the rest of the congregation and some stand up front.....just LIKE your single song leader does. You can keep this up until our Lord comes again, but you are wrong Donnie....and you know it!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 22nd, 2011, 6:49 pm #16

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

I really can't help you grasp what the man-designated, church-executive "Worship Leader" really means and does. When you are ready to really understand that concept, you will see. And remember that the key expression in that concept is "leading God's followers unto His HOLY presence." That is a denominational concept that folks like you, "worship leader" admirers, are imitating. Now, I can tell that there is some church-of-Christ mindset still left in you because you refuse to acknowledge that you are aping the Charismatics, not the Holy Scripture.

Again, the "Worship Leader" is man-appointed. The only similarity between your "Worship Leader" (an executive church position) and one who starts or leads singing is that they both wag their hands -- and they don't even have to do that. Other than that, their "spiritual" roles are totally different. When you speak of God's HOLY presence, be reminded of the "Holy of Holies" and who would be qualified to enter in? Certainly not your man-appointed "Worship Leader."

To have a Praise Team is not an option in the assembly. If it were, you might as well employ the services of a Baptist Choir that can perform better. That's why one who leads singing in the assembly does not need a choir. And it is NOT his choice.

Yes, regardless of where the P.T. members stand or sit as a GROUP, on stage or in the pews, they are segregated from the rest of the congregation. So, why are they being referred to as THE PRAISE TEAM? Why is the rest of the congregation not part of the Praise Team? See? There is a problem when man's decision-making process in/for the church takes precedence. As in this case, there is a spiritual class warfare.

I have news for you, Dave. Why doesn't the congregation use "that church's position's SALARY" for world mission instead? It certainly can support at least 25 FULL-TIME native preachers or evangelists in another country with the same salary.[/color]
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Sonny
Sonny

October 22nd, 2011, 8:47 pm #17

Brother Cruz, without addressing all of your rabbits and erroneous claims, here are a few thoughts. One, there are all types of congregations who title even the single song leader as the worship leader. Second, this is usually not a paid position. Three, the very conservative Crieve Hall C of C in Nashville pays a substantial salary for their song/worship leader.

So my main point is that with your nitpicky, petty arguments about religious minutiae, you basically end up finding fault with everyone in the brotherhood about something - something for which the Bible is silent.

Examples:

1. Not only is instrumental music condemned by you, but also any worship that is different, including a praise team. However, both you and Brother Sublett have said the all male praise team for the Inner-City C of C in Nashville is okay, which is inconsistent because you say others are not okay even when women are not involved.

2. Dissecting whether Jesus sang or said. This is the most irrelevant and fruitless debate I have ever witnessed in the brotherhood!

3. Condemning matters of expediency, such as salaries, that are decisions of elders for which the Bible does not say neither who all must be paid nor how much. Example: Is it o.k. to pay for custodial work? For the grass to be cut? To fund a day-care program? To pay for security? To pay a worship minister/leader? To pay a secretary? To have a counseling ministry? And so forth.

FINAL POINT AND ADMONITION

Brother, stop wasting your time and health on issues that are mute. You may not be divisive, but are at a minimum irrelevant in a world that needs teachers who will reach the lost with the gospel message! The past decade plus this site has been a distraction to the Lord's church. Rather than be turned inwardly focused on small-minded issues to divide, the church needs to be edifying the saved and evangelizing the lost!

-Sonny
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

October 23rd, 2011, 8:06 am #18

<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brother Elliott, claims are valid. I'm one of those people whose advice is sought by members of congregations who are noticing and witnessing the subtle and gradual changes occurring before their eyes. You're not. And these changes are not even about instrumental music at first -- which we know so well is preceded by these "minor" changes, such as the implementation of the "Praise Team." Minor? But controversial and divisive!!![/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The issue is not so much with the titles of "song leader" vs. "Worship Leader" as it is with their roles and functions. Worship is an individual Christian's duty not only in private but also in the assembly. So, in your worship even in private, would you like a "worship leader" to be following you around ... or "leading" you all the time? I think not.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is no such animal in Scripture as someone being paid as the church's "Worship Leader" leading God's people into His HOLY presence. Well, maybe, there is. I can think of someone in the Old Testament -- Aaron. You can read about this in review in Acts 7. "[1] And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him. [2] And Aaron said unto them, Break off the golden earrings<b>, which are in the ears of your wives, <b>of your sons, and of your daughters, and bring them unto me. [3] And all the people brake off the golden earrings which were in their ears, and brought them unto Aaron."</b></b> (Exodus 32)[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Worship" so programmed and executively "directed" and "produced" as we now see on TV, especially among the Charismatics, has become the standard and the norm for many religious groups; we now see this in certain mega congregations of the church of Christ.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]When the "worship period" is now comprised of and dominated by "musical worship" (some 60% of "religious" musicals and feel-good music and the remaining time being devoted to the teaching of God's truth and commemoration of His Son's death on the cross), then it's about time to question motives.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The "nitpicky, petty arguments about religious minutiae" are only the result of the unnecessary, controversial, subversive and divisive schemes and changes that are being promoted and advanced by the change agents.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]You have it in reverse order, brother. ConcernedMembers is not finding fault with the church that Christ establised. Rather, is is that the change agents are finding fault with Christ's church. Why would they even attempt to restructure His church and acquire unscriptural teachings, beliefs and practices? Hmmm ... to the change agents, the church of Christ must not be good enough in meeting denominational and secular standards, is that it?[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Something for which the Bible is silent," did you say that? I think I've heard that before. The truth is that the Bible is NOT silent about marking those who cause divisions in the church. Who might they be? The change agents. Right!!![/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There has never been a command or directive from God, saying, "Thou shalt worship Me, the Lord thy God, with all thy inanimate, lifeless musical instruments." Never, not even in the Old Testament.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The purpose of the assembly of saints is to commemorate the sacrifice and death of Christ on the cross, as well as to teach and admonish one another so that the word of Christ indwells the Christian RICHLY. It is not about the "programmed worship" made for TV, whose executive director and producer is--you name it. Nor it is about the excellent performance of the Praise Team singing to and for the congregation.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I do not recall having said anything about the Inner City church in Nashville. A Praise Team is unnecessary and divisive, with or without women. Period. Besides, it seems unfair and unjust that only the "praise" group of men and women have the "privilege" of holding a personal microphone while the rest of the congregants do not deserve to be heard by God and other folks.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is Dave Fields who keeps bringing up the "Jesus sang a hymn" issue. Nonetheless, it is not altogether futile because we can find out that a hymn can be recited and spoken. It is not a musical, brother.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Elders are not faultless, brother. In fact, they're still to seek God's counsel regarding spiritual matters. It is spiritually unwise for elders to spend $50,000 or more annually just on salaries (plus other benefits) of the "Worship Leader" alone: (1) for him to wag his arms through the musical worship period and (2) for him and his minions, the musical group, to REHEARSE "worship" beforehand. Custodial work is necessary manual labor. You "work for food," don't you, brother? Well, maybe not, but hopefully, you see my point. Unless the designated "worship leader" is incapable of laboring and toiling with his hands, his "spiritual" service should be voluntary.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]About your final point: Direct your admonition to the sowers of discord--the change agents. And, no, I am not wasting my precious time, even though I have a full-time secular job. While it is true that we all should seek the lost and that the kingdom of Christ is going to prevail anyway regardless of the culture-driven schemes of the change agents to "grow the church"--which has been unsuccessful and causing division in the body of Christ, ConcernedMembers is obligated to inform peaceful congregations and individual Christians about the change agents and their mission. So does the Bible say: BEWARE!!![/color]</li>[/list]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

October 23rd, 2011, 7:49 pm #19

I do not recall having said anything about the Inner City church in Nashville. A Praise Team is unnecessary and divisive, with or without women. Period. Besides, it seems unfair and unjust that only the "praise" group of men and women have the "privilege" of holding a personal microphone while the rest of the congregants do not deserve to be heard by God and other folks.

No, He just fabricated that: LU gives him divine ermision to use your imagination to fill in the blanks. This is the second time he has repeated this fib. At the same time most theOlogs cannot tell the difference between the ekklesia / synagogue as A SCHOOL OF THE WORD and what you do at home. If people cannot understand why you are commanded and exampled WHY you don't make mechanical noise when Jesus comes to be out Teacher of "HIS Word" when we teach that which has been taught, then there is nothing to be gained by quoting the text. However, other readers may catch on to the fact that people who want to perform "holy entertainment" when we are warned that GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE for those who CANNOT come before Him in reverence and Godly fear (Hebrews 12) should not be defended or fed even bread and water.

While only a few churches have "gone all the way" to Join up with the mother (Rev 18) there are MANY bloggers who are actively fighting against the church which pays them but keeps them under control.

There are a few "conservative" bloggers out there at the preacher level who do not use the context to defend their position.

CM is the only public forum manly enough to let the new ANTI movement present their case.

Too, if you read Donnie's post you will find the "womb" out of which the "worship leaders" were spawned. What the proof-texters do not grasp is that the Levites volunteered to slaughter 3,000 of the brethren who engaged in musical idolatry on the REST day. As defined in The Book of Enoch that was a sin beyonnd redemption.

"What God COMMANDED" was not the Levites as Musical Worship leaders as any reader can discover. They STOOD IN RANKS under the King and Commanders of the army in 2 Chronicles 29: they actually USED the musical instruments during the Burnt Offering of the Goats. this is said to be by THE COMMAND OF DAVID up to 300 years earlier. Christ said that God DID NOT command these sacrifices.

The ROLE as "prophesying with musical instruments" is translated as they--

Performed as Soothsayers with instrumental accompaniment: John calls them sorcerers in Revelation 18.

CM has addressed all of the issues used by the Merchantile Class to deliberately sow discord. It so happens that ALL of the progressive bloggers pour out hate against anyone who will not bow to ball when the instruments make a sound. True to their CLASS they are purpose driven to sow discord and to make their evil complete blame those "shot in the heart" for bleeding on their dancing slippers. That began with Adam.

Now, Shunny, tell us what you learned from the sermon or song today: you hear the same old songs over and over proving that you are just performing a LEGALISTIC ACT instead of planning to "teach that which is written for our learning."

It is also a fact that if you read all of the Bible Based post kinda ignoring the hecklers you would have covered all of the key events from Genesis to Revelation.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on October 23rd, 2011, 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
Dave

October 23rd, 2011, 9:47 pm #20

Matthew 25:40 And the King shall answer and say unto them,
....Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it
....unto one of the least of these my brethren,
....ye have done it unto me.
Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
....Depart from me, ye cursed,
....into everlasting fire,
<font color="#FFFFFF">....
prepared for the devil and his angels:

Matthew 25:42 For I was an hungred,
....and ye gave me no meat:
....I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

http://piney.com/Matthew.25-40.Ye.Have. ... to.Me.html

Because in Amos, the people had David's musical performance IN the temple Christ prophesied that their songs in the temple would be turned into howlings.

Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD,
....that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread,
....nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east,
....they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

Christ in Isaiah had the same warning about those who used musical instruments in their religious festivals:

Isaiah 5:12 And the harp, and the viol, the tabret, and pipe, and wine,
....are in their feasts: [religious festivals]
....but they regard not the work of the LORD, neither consider the operation of his hands.
Isaiah 5:13 Therefore my people are gone into captivity,
....because they have no knowledge:
....and their honourable men are famished,
....and their multitude dried up with thirst.
Isaiah 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself,
....and opened her mouth without measure:
....and their glory, and their multitude,
....and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Sublimis: B. In partic., of language, lofty, elevated, sublime (freq. in Quint.): sublimia carmina, Juv. 7, 28: verbum, Quint. 8, 3, 18: clara et sublimia verba, id. ib.: oratio,
Action versus Submission.

Carmen I. In gen., a tune, song, air, lay, strain, note, sound, both vocal and instrumental. Oratory.
II. Esp., a composition in verse, a poem; poetry, verse, song, whether in a broader sense, of every kind of poetic production, epic, dramatic
With allusion to playing on the cithara: [guitar]


Don't be surprised that people WANT you to be deceived.</font>
Ken calling Sonny "Shummy."
Nice Ken.

You are just a juvenile, Ken, in a worn out old body. That name calling proves it. Like the saying goes, if you can't squash the message, then go after the messenger.
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