Why I lost faith

Scripture
Scripture

November 25th, 2013, 10:55 pm #31

Scripture implied that doctors are less likely to take chemotherapy if they have cancer. Does Scripture have some statistical sources that provide that information? How many doctors does Scripture know who have refused chemotherapy for themselves?
Here is one article that says doctors are more reluctant to do chemotherapy for themselves relative to others.

http://www.undergroundhealth.com/75-of- ... hemselves/

Faith does not necessarily imply that one thinks that he can be cured. Faith oftentimes also accepts the natural condition, and trusts in God that in the end God is ultimately in charge.

I heard the doctor of my father-in-law who died of cancer in three months, that if he had been the sick one, he would not have taken chemotherapy. He said that it weakened the body quickly, and actually made the patient die earlier. With no chemotherapy, perhaps the natural defenses of the body (and this could include faith) would lead to a longer life expectancy.

Patients want HOPE however, and this is a reason that chemotherapy is relatively heavily used.

Doctors say that sickness is in "remission" or has a "clean bill of health" and not that a person is cured.

My cousin who has stage two cancer is not taking chemotherapy, and she received a "clean bill of health."
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November 26th, 2013, 12:00 am #32

The parallel between people seeing the miracles in the desert with Moses and us today is what I hear in class that makes my stomach churn. It is not the same. Not even kind of close to compare. They saw the same miracles that we see today if you want to call the fact that we are here a miracle. They got the added bonus of manna falling from the sky, water from rock, cloud of fire, etc... We get a story that we don't know how for sure we got it, but we want to believe it because we want to believe in meaning and life after death, and you can't prove it wrong until your dead and it doesn't matter anymore. Why does God reveal himself to certain people or in certain times and then expect everyone else to believe their story? How many false religions are out there because of this?

Doctors do not take chemo because they know their chances, and they know what chemo does to you, and they know they don't want to go through it. Some doctors give it to you because they think it might work, others do it because they can charge your insurance company a lot of money on your way out. There are instances where people are healed that are prayed for. But if it happens one out of a thousand times, was it prayer that did it, or just the fact that some people have better immune systems than others.

I am going to continue to read through the previous post and keep searching for now.
We truly need to resist being a "confused" disciple of positivism, i.e. the idea that God must be discovered in a test tube or that He can be weighed and measured. According to positivism, since God cannot be seen, heard, measured, filtered, or proven scientifically then He must not exist.

"Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen" (KVJ), or "Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (NASB). Hebrews 11:1.

Many have lived their lives obedient to God's will, following His code of ethics, and resolute and right-living until the end.

The alternative is a life of chance, dimmed expectations, and the attitude of approaching doom. Hope is restored to the Christian by the message of Christ, and is a characteristic not seen in the positive world.

Instead, positivism leads us to despair (opposite of hope) with threats from global warming, dimming of the son, fear of nuclear holocaust, and steady fear of degeneration of the body. Positivism sees the human body as just a accident of the arrangement of molecules and atoms, which evolved into "life." It can also lead to fascism, blood and soil, annihilation, militarism, and all the unfortunate results of elevating the human to the title of God.

Life in Christ, however, is the hope of the Christian.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 26th, 2013, 4:18 pm #33

I grew up in church and still go. I am attempting to bring my child up that way too. I was always a lukewarm Christian so I decided for the first time at 26 to read bible cover to cover. I did, but had more questions than answers so I read it again. Even more questions. Then one night while reading Genesis to my son, I totally felt like I was lying to him. I want to believe what it says because it would be easier, but nothing about it makes sense. It makes more sense that we as people want more than anything to have meaning, and for our children to have meaning. We don't want to tell them or believe ourselves that death is it. While I don't rule the possibility of God out, I do not believe anything that happened in the Old Testament. While evolution is not a fact, it is more likely than a world wide flood with animals from all over coming to a boat. While the Big Bang is not a fact, it is more likely than a 6000 year old earth. The gospels were written 30 years or later after the fact. It would not be impossible to make things up with a gap that large. While I believe in belief, and I want to believe, I can't. My sons Christian school is even teaching evolution and billion year time scales because Christian scientist have not come up with any scientific evidence that works.

If you choke on a steak do you ask for prayers or the hiemlech?

If science is so wrong, how does GPS work?
How did they send a rover to Mars, or send a craft outside the solar system(in about the time they projected)?

If there were one or two examples, I would not have lost faith. But from the little I know, I can think of hundreds of examples.

So the question I have is how do you here believe when it makes as much logical sense as Santa?

A couple of stories that I don't get:
Golden calf- why did Moses have Levites kill everyone and then promote Aaron, the ring leader, to high priest?
Job- God makes wager with devil using at jobs expense. Why would God care what satan thinks about anything.
Noah- animal species could not get to boat from all over world. All freshwater fish would have died.
Cain- who did he marry and how were there cities already.
Lot- gets so drunk he sleeps with both daughters/ the same daughters he was ready hand over for gang rape in sodom
Abraham- prostitutes his wife to pharaoh
David- many wives and living in sin
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]FYI (in case they've been overlooked), there were other messages published by the author of this thread on November 25, 2013 at these times -- 2:00 AM ... 2:17 AM ... 2:19 AM ... 3:14 AM.

On November 25 2013, 10:09 AM, Confused commented:[/color]
[color=#000000" size="4" face="times]
When you look at Christian religions, or even religion in general, it seems to pander to comfort. while the church does do good in the community, how many people would come still service was held outside without a building in order to give everything to the needy? I get this is a bad example but you see my point. How fast did Madison fall apart after Vision 2000? It was believe in belief as long as there was a certain preacher, or comfort. I at least respect the people on here because you have a thought behind the questions I ask. Whether I agree or not does not matter as much as the knowledge I gain from someone else's perspective or thoughts about the same question I have. I also appreciate the fact that in your answers you explain and cite examples and don't give me the one word answer of not enough faith.[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Hasn't this been the trend in the postmodern "Christian" era? Building massive or attractive worship centers? How remarkable is the question posed: "How fast did Madison fall apart after Vision 2000?" (We should have stressed that fact all along while the change agents' activities of transforming the congregation into a "Community Church" denomination were in progress in the 90s.)

Thanks to Scripture and others who've responded very well.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 26th, 2013, 8:24 pm #34

Here is one article that says doctors are more reluctant to do chemotherapy for themselves relative to others.

http://www.undergroundhealth.com/75-of- ... hemselves/

Faith does not necessarily imply that one thinks that he can be cured. Faith oftentimes also accepts the natural condition, and trusts in God that in the end God is ultimately in charge.

I heard the doctor of my father-in-law who died of cancer in three months, that if he had been the sick one, he would not have taken chemotherapy. He said that it weakened the body quickly, and actually made the patient die earlier. With no chemotherapy, perhaps the natural defenses of the body (and this could include faith) would lead to a longer life expectancy.

Patients want HOPE however, and this is a reason that chemotherapy is relatively heavily used.

Doctors say that sickness is in "remission" or has a "clean bill of health" and not that a person is cured.

My cousin who has stage two cancer is not taking chemotherapy, and she received a "clean bill of health."
I have personal reasons to hope that you two Oncologists are wrong: every cancer is different and improvements are made almost daily. When people with no money and no insurance get the best treatment I doubt that it is a mercinary rush for treatments or cures.

I think Donnie should remove the medical advice because CM does not want to get sued.
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Bill
Bill

November 26th, 2013, 9:06 pm #35

I'm certainly no oncologist; I don't know about Scripture. Whatever, I haven't seen anybody peddling "medical advice" around here. Scripture simply provided information that, when faced with cancer, a majority of doctors polled would not take chemo themselves. That's their choice; patients also have the same choice.
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November 26th, 2013, 9:11 pm #36

I have personal reasons to hope that you two Oncologists are wrong: every cancer is different and improvements are made almost daily. When people with no money and no insurance get the best treatment I doubt that it is a mercinary rush for treatments or cures.

I think Donnie should remove the medical advice because CM does not want to get sued.
Our family has a long history of dealing with cancer. We are not naïve.

In some cases, the doctor does not recommend chemotherapy. In some cases, yes.

Is some cases, he or she leaves that decision to the patient, without lobbying.

This writer makes no recommendation other than to deal with sickness with all choices under consideration.

The patient is the chief decision maker, in all cases.



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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 26th, 2013, 10:56 pm #37

I grew up in church and still go. I am attempting to bring my child up that way too. I was always a lukewarm Christian so I decided for the first time at 26 to read bible cover to cover. I did, but had more questions than answers so I read it again. Even more questions. Then one night while reading Genesis to my son, I totally felt like I was lying to him. I want to believe what it says because it would be easier, but nothing about it makes sense. It makes more sense that we as people want more than anything to have meaning, and for our children to have meaning. We don't want to tell them or believe ourselves that death is it. While I don't rule the possibility of God out, I do not believe anything that happened in the Old Testament. While evolution is not a fact, it is more likely than a world wide flood with animals from all over coming to a boat. While the Big Bang is not a fact, it is more likely than a 6000 year old earth. The gospels were written 30 years or later after the fact. It would not be impossible to make things up with a gap that large. While I believe in belief, and I want to believe, I can't. My sons Christian school is even teaching evolution and billion year time scales because Christian scientist have not come up with any scientific evidence that works.

If you choke on a steak do you ask for prayers or the hiemlech?

If science is so wrong, how does GPS work?
How did they send a rover to Mars, or send a craft outside the solar system(in about the time they projected)?

If there were one or two examples, I would not have lost faith. But from the little I know, I can think of hundreds of examples.

So the question I have is how do you here believe when it makes as much logical sense as Santa?

A couple of stories that I don't get:
Golden calf- why did Moses have Levites kill everyone and then promote Aaron, the ring leader, to high priest?
Job- God makes wager with devil using at jobs expense. Why would God care what satan thinks about anything.
Noah- animal species could not get to boat from all over world. All freshwater fish would have died.
Cain- who did he marry and how were there cities already.
Lot- gets so drunk he sleeps with both daughters/ the same daughters he was ready hand over for gang rape in sodom
Abraham- prostitutes his wife to pharaoh
David- many wives and living in sin
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I think that the first mention of "chemotherapy" in this thread was in relation to a discussion of "faith" (or the lack of it) in conjunction with "healing." "Miracles 'still' happen today!" -- a misleading declaration and popularization by today's televangelists and "miracle workers." As if to say that today's "miraculous" healings are a continuation of and are no different from the miracles done during the time of Christ and the apostles.

(The author of this thread agrees with the known assertion about chemo treatment and the doctors, if they themselves were to face similar medical issues. The mention of "chemo" was only an example or a miniscule part of the overall discussion of faith-related matters contained in both the Old and New Testaments. But Dr. Bill felt the need to dwell on this particular medical subject [of all things] and to [perhaps unintentionally] divert [cf. post on November 25 2013, 7:28 AM]. Now we see what's happened.)

Let's return to the discussion of: "Why I lost faith." This is not a medical forum.

My contention is that the Bible is comprised of segments that deal with: the law, the psalms, the prophets, history (of BOTH good and evil occurrences), narratives of both good and evil characters, doctrine, etc. -- all in there for a reason.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 26th, 2013, 11:25 pm #38

The same alternative pages recommends cannabis to CURE cancer. The surveys are selling alternative CURES:

CBD Hemp Oil, Cannabidiol free shipping over $49

I lived with a family while attending college: both she and the preacher could cure everything up to a missing leg with Nutrilite. Now the prefered treatment of terminal cancer is Essential Oils. From my research in Sonar I can testify to the value of handling Castor Oil with bare hands.

I happen to have a neighbor, a retired Heart specialists who just finished Chemo. And a doctor friend in Murfreesboro took the cure--later died. So beware of absolutists.

I just heard today that Ben Ladin is still alive!
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Scripture
Scripture

November 26th, 2013, 11:27 pm #39

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I think that the first mention of "chemotherapy" in this thread was in relation to a discussion of "faith" (or the lack of it) in conjunction with "healing." "Miracles 'still' happen today!" -- a misleading declaration and popularization by today's televangelists and "miracle workers." As if to say that today's "miraculous" healings are a continuation of and are no different from the miracles done during the time of Christ and the apostles.

(The author of this thread agrees with the known assertion about chemo treatment and the doctors, if they themselves were to face similar medical issues. The mention of "chemo" was only an example or a miniscule part of the overall discussion of faith-related matters contained in both the Old and New Testaments. But Dr. Bill felt the need to dwell on this particular medical subject [of all things] and to [perhaps unintentionally] divert [cf. post on November 25 2013, 7:28 AM]. Now we see what's happened.)

Let's return to the discussion of: "Why I lost faith." This is not a medical forum.

My contention is that the Bible is comprised of segments that deal with: the law, the psalms, the prophets, history (of BOTH good and evil occurrences), narratives of both good and evil characters, doctrine, etc. -- all in there for a reason.[/color]
An overlooked quality of the Christian is "hope." Hope can be said to be the forerunner of faith; and it is the product of faith as well.

The love of God is scatter abroad to bring faith, since a loving God we can depend on. God's love also brings hope.

The Positivist ignores hope, often. He leaves people without hope.

Remember Ephesians 2:12. Paul says "remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world."

All Christians can have hope--both those that are well and those that are sick.

Paul links faith, hope, and love in 1 Corinthians 13:13.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 26th, 2013, 11:40 pm #40

The same alternative pages recommends cannabis to CURE cancer. The surveys are selling alternative CURES:

CBD Hemp Oil, Cannabidiol free shipping over $49

I lived with a family while attending college: both she and the preacher could cure everything up to a missing leg with Nutrilite. Now the prefered treatment of terminal cancer is Essential Oils. From my research in Sonar I can testify to the value of handling Castor Oil with bare hands.

I happen to have a neighbor, a retired Heart specialists who just finished Chemo. And a doctor friend in Murfreesboro took the cure--later died. So beware of absolutists.

I just heard today that Ben Ladin is still alive!
We have noted above that the Old Testament is a history of the Hebrew People and not a history of the universe. Because of musical idolatry the nation SPLIT:

God abandoned the Jacob-cursed Levites to worship the starry host and make instrumental noise as sorcerers performing exorcism connected to the Worship of the Starry host. If God abandoned them to worship the starry host then guess what gods they worshipped under the curse of the Civil-Military-Clergy complex.

The godly people attended the Church OF Christ (the Rock) from the wilderness onward: the Babylonish sacrificial system was not commanded by God (Christ says in Isaiah 1 and Jeremiah 7 and etc.) and it was Quarantined behind High Walls into which not even Jesus would have been allowed.

If people do not believe it may be because they spend to much time on the problem passages which are problems because most have missed out on the SPLIT between the Jewish (etal) Civil and Spiritual people who were informed by the PROPHETS being PREACHED each rest day by being READ.

There is the WORLD people who are not OF TRUTH or OF FAITH. Believers are not OF the World and when they HEAR the invitation they will gladly be baptized to become a Student of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles. They will be a STUDENT for learning and to try to be a judge of what they are taught FOR LEARNING and not for DOGMA.

John 7:14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.
John 7:15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?
John 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.
John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
John 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
John 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?


So if you do not have faith then you do not have faith and you should "eat, drink and be merry." No one can argue one OF THE WORLD into FAITH which is HEARING the INVITATION or election.

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