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It is also important that the sacrificial system operated by the tribe of Levi was related only to the FLESH and was not related to the Conscience which is equated to A holy spirit. These sacrifices and offerings were not commanded (Isa 1; Jer 7) but imposed on the Civil-Military-Clergy complex.I grew up in church and still go. I am attempting to bring my child up that way too. I was always a lukewarm Christian so I decided for the first time at 26 to read bible cover to cover. I did, but had more questions than answers so I read it again. Even more questions. Then one night while reading Genesis to my son, I totally felt like I was lying to him. I want to believe what it says because it would be easier, but nothing about it makes sense. It makes more sense that we as people want more than anything to have meaning, and for our children to have meaning. We don't want to tell them or believe ourselves that death is it. While I don't rule the possibility of God out, I do not believe anything that happened in the Old Testament. While evolution is not a fact, it is more likely than a world wide flood with animals from all over coming to a boat. While the Big Bang is not a fact, it is more likely than a 6000 year old earth. The gospels were written 30 years or later after the fact. It would not be impossible to make things up with a gap that large. While I believe in belief, and I want to believe, I can't. My sons Christian school is even teaching evolution and billion year time scales because Christian scientist have not come up with any scientific evidence that works.
If you choke on a steak do you ask for prayers or the hiemlech?
If science is so wrong, how does GPS work?
How did they send a rover to Mars, or send a craft outside the solar system(in about the time they projected)?
If there were one or two examples, I would not have lost faith. But from the little I know, I can think of hundreds of examples.
So the question I have is how do you here believe when it makes as much logical sense as Santa?
A couple of stories that I don't get:
Golden calf- why did Moses have Levites kill everyone and then promote Aaron, the ring leader, to high priest?
Job- God makes wager with devil using at jobs expense. Why would God care what satan thinks about anything.
Noah- animal species could not get to boat from all over world. All freshwater fish would have died.
Cain- who did he marry and how were there cities already.
Lot- gets so drunk he sleeps with both daughters/ the same daughters he was ready hand over for gang rape in sodom
Abraham- prostitutes his wife to pharaoh
David- many wives and living in sin
In the flood for instance, even if animals did find a way to walk across water from other continents to Noah, and even if they could all fit on the ark, all of the freshwater fish would have died and you would not have the diversity seen today in them.I grew up in the church, went to a c of c schools from K- college. I have continued to attend church. In all this time, I have never had any classes that discussed how the bible we have came to be and how we know it is inspired. All my classes have jumped past that to it is inspired and if you don't believe that on faith alone, you burn.
In exodus 24 Moses takes Aaron and the elders up to see God. Then in chapter 32, Aaron is making a calf, without any objection. He didn't say, "hey we just saw all of these miraculous events, and the elders and I actually saw God." He just took their gold and made the calf. I don't get the rational of any of them, or why God would choose them for his people. If they saw all of this with their eyes and didn't believe, how can I on just a book I should take as true without question, when all evidence points the other way.
In the flood for instance, even if animals did find a way to walk across water from other continents to Noah, and even if they could all fit on the ark, all of the freshwater fish would have died and you would not have the diversity seen today in them.
The island of Hawaii is a volcanic chain of islands that are formed at a few feet a year as the tectonic plates move over a hotspot. There is no way, the northern islands with the rainforest were not created 6-7000 years ago.
While I don't believe the science we have now is 100% true, it evolves with new findings. Christians pray for the sick, if they are healed it was a miracle and if they die it was Gods plan. I know praying can cure cancer and other internal sickness one can't see, but it is odd that the same prayers have never healed a severed arm.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Confused's questions were stated in the initial post. Now, Bill has an "are you ... or do you ..." question posed. How would you respond if Confused said yes either way?[/color]Are you still looking for the Messiah to come, or do you believe that the Bible's prophecy of a Savior/Messiah is just a fable?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]... and hundreds and hundreds more questions similar to the ones you posed above."Confused" says that s/he has read the Bible cover-to-cover at least twice. Other questions that Confused may have are these: If God is perfect and omnipotent, why did He give an "imperfect" Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) in the first place? Why did He give a covenant that didn't completely do the job? Why did God first want "atonement" for sins through animal sacrifices, when His plan all along was to send Jesus to make the Final atonement? Why wasn't Jesus sent much earlier, instead of the Mosaic Law, to establish His Covenant permanently and "get the job done" once and for all time?
Perhaps the answers to these questions are the "mystery of God."
"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8,9 KJV).
It's my understanding that Deism died out in the 2nd Great Awakening between about 1810 through 1845. Jefferson and some of the early leaders of the United States are often classified as deists. Apologetic Press in Alabama (Dave Miller & associates) claim they were standard Christians (not deists), even though they were not connected with the Restoration Movement. (There is an irony here.)I believe Jesus lived. I believe he tried to change Judaism and the leaders didn't like that so they killed him. Much the same way those in the church would do today if someone professed the same things Jesus did. I believe the gospels where written many years after the fact. I believe that Jesus never asked to be worshiped and would not like the way the modern church runs today. I guess I consider myself a deist.
Or maybe at least a doubting Thomas.
In the initial post, Confused primarily focused on the Old Testament and emphatically said, "I do not believe anything that happened in the Old Testament." As far as Jesus is concerned, Confused implied that it's possible to fabricate what was written in the Gospels 30 years after Jesus died. I just asked if Confused believed that some kind of Messiah (if not Jesus) was still to come, or did Confused think that everthing the Bible said about a Messiah was just a bunch of fables. In another post, Confused said s/he believed that Jesus lived on earth but seemed to doubt that He was divine. So far, Confused has not explicitly stated whether s/he believes some kind of Messiah is yet to come or whether the whole biblical concept of a Messiah is a fable. Maybe Confused has too many doubts to give a definitive answer one way or another. Now perhaps Confused will expound on this if s/he so chooses.[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Confused's questions were stated in the initial post. Now, Bill has an "are you ... or do you ..." question posed. How would you respond if Confused said yes either way?[/color]
Is there any good books on inspiration of biblical writers and the history of the modern Christian bible? I guess my main problem is I see religion as a way to herd the sheep. Without belief tht writers were inspired by God, and God is the Hebrew God, it is a tall tale that was written after the fact to make it work. If the gospels were written years after Jesus death, any of the writers could have made up whatever prophecy they saw fit. Who back then, 30-70 years after the fact, were around to fact check?Here are some notes
Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good
That is why some definitions define ERETS or FIRMA as the fruitful places.
Genesis 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.
So, the waters ran OFF the earth and into the SEA. That means that the SEA was not covered by water. That is just simple reading what the text says. Earth is
H776 erets eh'-rets From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.
terra (archaic tera , the dry land, the earth, opp. to the heavens, land, ground, soil
Scripture, I believe noted that we are speaking of pretty flat land. So if there was a sudden breaking up of the sources of water along with rain this would be like a tsunami and it would be too late to run. The Ark Settled on some high places but certainly not what we know as Ararat which would leave no place for the water to run off.
Lots of research has shown that the Persian gulf was not always connected to the Ocean. That would mean that the 'Garden of Eden' would now be underwater. The land breaking suddenly as it will again in places if global warming is true
Another strong evidence is that Robert Ballard has done lots of research in the Black Sea: structures still exist under the Sea. A break allowing sea water to flood the black sea is another historical fact.
In any event if you research the words of Vain and Empty and Dark and Light it clearly points to a spiritual darkness which we know often destroys. Everyone blames God: I know a few preachers who claim that God commanded them to add instruments to what they call a "worship service." And if your landscaping plants die you can be that you get nothing because it was a ACT OF GOD.
You don't have to get it all right but you have to be a seeker to be approved by God. When people are dogmatic they make certain that you will not be a student and have to depend on them.
The Boulder area proves that telling people to move out because a flood is coming has no meaning to the masses.