Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 15th, 2013, 12:20 am #11

I grew up in church and still go. I am attempting to bring my child up that way too. I was always a lukewarm Christian so I decided for the first time at 26 to read bible cover to cover. I did, but had more questions than answers so I read it again. Even more questions. Then one night while reading Genesis to my son, I totally felt like I was lying to him. I want to believe what it says because it would be easier, but nothing about it makes sense. It makes more sense that we as people want more than anything to have meaning, and for our children to have meaning. We don't want to tell them or believe ourselves that death is it. While I don't rule the possibility of God out, I do not believe anything that happened in the Old Testament. While evolution is not a fact, it is more likely than a world wide flood with animals from all over coming to a boat. While the Big Bang is not a fact, it is more likely than a 6000 year old earth. The gospels were written 30 years or later after the fact. It would not be impossible to make things up with a gap that large. While I believe in belief, and I want to believe, I can't. My sons Christian school is even teaching evolution and billion year time scales because Christian scientist have not come up with any scientific evidence that works.

If you choke on a steak do you ask for prayers or the hiemlech?

If science is so wrong, how does GPS work?
How did they send a rover to Mars, or send a craft outside the solar system(in about the time they projected)?

If there were one or two examples, I would not have lost faith. But from the little I know, I can think of hundreds of examples.

So the question I have is how do you here believe when it makes as much logical sense as Santa?

A couple of stories that I don't get:
Golden calf- why did Moses have Levites kill everyone and then promote Aaron, the ring leader, to high priest?
Job- God makes wager with devil using at jobs expense. Why would God care what satan thinks about anything.
Noah- animal species could not get to boat from all over world. All freshwater fish would have died.
Cain- who did he marry and how were there cities already.
Lot- gets so drunk he sleeps with both daughters/ the same daughters he was ready hand over for gang rape in sodom
Abraham- prostitutes his wife to pharaoh
David- many wives and living in sin
It is also important that the sacrificial system operated by the tribe of Levi was related only to the FLESH and was not related to the Conscience which is equated to A holy spirit. These sacrifices and offerings were not commanded (Isa 1; Jer 7) but imposed on the Civil-Military-Clergy complex.

At the same time, from the wilderness onward the godly people were quarantined so that they could not come near or into these Civil sacrifices. They rested in their very isolated villages and the only activity was to Rest, Read and Rehearse the Word: Exodus 18 defines these sub-groups and elders down to as few as ten families.

There is a big difference between an external system of religion and a spiritual discipline in what we assemble to LEARN from Jesus and mutually confessing by teaching what He commanded to be taught.

Hebrews 9:1 Then verily the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
Hebrews 9:2 For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, IMPOSED on them until the time of reformation.
Hebrews 9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the FLESH:
Hebrews 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your CONSCIENCE from dead works to serve the living God?
Hebrews 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

Hebrews 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns [Tabernacle] of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Hebrews 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Hebrews 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Hebrews 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin [offering] unto salvation.


You have to be responsible for your own children and anyone well acquainted by the Bible is simply going to have values even if they take time to discover them. You may have to look around to find a Bible-focused group which is A School of Christ.

Skhole , h, A.leisure, rest, ease, enjoy ease, keep quiet, II. that in which leisure is employed, ou kamn skhol I am not weary of talk, Id.Ion 276; esp. learned discussion, disputation,
2. a group to whom lectures were given, school, Arist.Pol.1313b3, Phld.Ind.Sto.10, D.H.Isoc.1, Dem.44, Plu.Per.35, Alex.7, etc.; s. ekhein to keep a school,



The priests were supposed to teach. Only a tiny part of the tithe went to to sacrifices but the priests and Levites had many civil duties.

Micah 3:11 The heads thereof judge for reward, and the priests thereof teach for hire, and the prophets thereof divine for money: yet will they lean upon the LORD, and say, Is not the LORD among us? none evil can come upon us.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on September 15th, 2013, 12:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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September 15th, 2013, 1:23 am #12

The issues you discussed concerning Biblical inspiration are not unique to Churches of Christ, but can be found in other church groups. So this is not a specific COC problem, but common to other churches as well. The conservative Baptist churches fail to answer the questions as well, but the "moderate" Baptists reject the literal explanation of the Scriptures. I would recommend that you read literature that deals with the historical process of the collection of Christian Scriptures, if you cannot get answers from the church you attend. Your preacher is failing to discuss the issue more fully, because of the explosive nature of the topic. But I would not trash the COC for this issue, since this issue is dealt with in all the "evangelical" churches as well as the moderate churches.

There are plenty of Bible students who have advanced concepts about how the Scriptures were collected. Yet among them most are Christians of great FAITH. They may not agree with the details about how the Scriptures were collected, nor in the details of the Great Flood, yet they retain faith.

It is a common problem to paste a narrow interpretation on the early chapters of Genesis, and on the basis of that to tell the whole world that one has lost FAITH. Their near-sighted understandings have led to loss of faith, and not the proper handling of the complete Word of God.

Your question about the believability that the persons in the wilderness saw all the powers of God, yet fell from faith, can be answered in various ways, without doubting that they really saw the signs of His power. Today, we see the creation and the blessings of God around us, and yet some doubt. This would be a parallel to the wayward Israelites following Moses. We are also surprised today when we see the wisdom of following God's moral codes is denied by numerous wayward people, who are drunkards, lazy, lascivious, and covetous. We wonder how they can ignore the teachings of God. These are just like the unbelieving Israelites following Moses and Aaron.

The Great Flood strains some people's believability, but what is so hard to believe about preparing for a flood and saving all available animals from the event. The Tigris-Euphrates river valley was a frequent place for flooding, and the failure of people to prepare for those events, is a denial of reality. Noah, in this sense, is a realist who recognizes that Godly people will prepare for the future, accepting the fact that those who shun God's will are likely to pay a high moral cost. That sinful people will reap the results of their disbelief is today's type of the Great Flood of Noah.

That the earth is only 6000 years old is a product of Bishop Usher's calendar, from his detailed calculations of the lineages of the patriarchs recorded pre-Noah. There are pros and cons about these dates, but how does that somehow cause one to lose faith? How does the singular belief that the earth is more than 6,000 years old lead one to general disbelief? It is not necessary to disbelieve God on the basis of a singular belief.

The failure of some sick to recover is not comforting to the sick, since it rules out the attitude of HOPE. Go to any hospital and tell the patients that God cannot heal them. You will be looked at as little better than an atheist. Doctors, those who through scientific methods seek to restore our health, are some of the greatest believers in faith. At the same time, doctors are some of the first to recognize the seeming hopelessness of some situations, and they themselves do not take necessary chemotherapy to cure themselves (less likely than others). But most of these same doctors continue to have FAITH.





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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 15th, 2013, 2:32 am #13

I grew up in the church, went to a c of c schools from K- college. I have continued to attend church. In all this time, I have never had any classes that discussed how the bible we have came to be and how we know it is inspired. All my classes have jumped past that to it is inspired and if you don't believe that on faith alone, you burn.

In exodus 24 Moses takes Aaron and the elders up to see God. Then in chapter 32, Aaron is making a calf, without any objection. He didn't say, "hey we just saw all of these miraculous events, and the elders and I actually saw God." He just took their gold and made the calf. I don't get the rational of any of them, or why God would choose them for his people. If they saw all of this with their eyes and didn't believe, how can I on just a book I should take as true without question, when all evidence points the other way.

In the flood for instance, even if animals did find a way to walk across water from other continents to Noah, and even if they could all fit on the ark, all of the freshwater fish would have died and you would not have the diversity seen today in them.

The island of Hawaii is a volcanic chain of islands that are formed at a few feet a year as the tectonic plates move over a hotspot. There is no way, the northern islands with the rainforest were not created 6-7000 years ago.

While I don't believe the science we have now is 100% true, it evolves with new findings. Christians pray for the sick, if they are healed it was a miracle and if they die it was Gods plan. I know praying can cure cancer and other internal sickness one can't see, but it is odd that the same prayers have never healed a severed arm.
In the flood for instance, even if animals did find a way to walk across water from other continents to Noah, and even if they could all fit on the ark, all of the freshwater fish would have died and you would not have the diversity seen today in them.

The EARTH which was destroyed was the FRUITFUL PLACE: The Bible does not say that the waters covered the GLOBE but that place "between the rivers" where the story is set in the Babylonian Tablets. The mount Ararat which we know of is 16,854 feet high: if that mountain was covered then you would have about 3 miles of water over the whole earth. If the ark had been over 3 miles high we might have heard of Noah supplying air to all of those animals.

In this case the CREATION story is repeated and the WIND (not a spirit person) blew the water from off the earth or fruitful places. It did not blow 3 miles of water covering the whole GLOBE

The Creation story, the Flood Story and the Red Sea story have all of the same conditions of being empty and vain. The vain and empty story is also told of the condition of the Israelite nation: No light means not information and Darkness means dumb.

Job repeats part of the "creation" story and calls it a parable and the Spirit OF Christ warned about the Lying Pen of the Scribes and Paul warned about Jewish Fables (fabulas or religious rituals) and Old Wives Tales. Christ said that the Jews had a Covenant with Death and Hell and denied that they could be destroyed. So, pick out the accounts of the GOOD people to imitate.

So, think of the history of the Hebrew people like the history of the American people: We have the Civil-Military Complex including too many clergy. Running parallel to the WORLD is the Kingdom Within you as a spiritual kingdom. No one would expect future clergy to use the killing of maybe 85000 Iraq military as an APPROVED PATTERN to pass Judgment on God. At the same time the history is to be used for EDUCATION without letting its WORLD view influence our spiritual life.

Because earth does not mean the GLOBE it should not bother you. If you are a DISCIPLE you are not called upon to judge what it describes. God never ordered mass extermination whatever the Jewish Scribes taught.
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Confused
Confused

September 16th, 2013, 2:51 am #14

The way I read it is earth is world. Otherwise there would be no need for anything bigger than a boat because animals, and even the evil humans would just get to higher ground.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 16th, 2013, 3:38 am #15

Here are some notes

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good


That is why some definitions define ERETS or FIRMA as the fruitful places.

Genesis 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

So, the waters ran OFF the earth and into the SEA. That means that the SEA was not covered by water. That is just simple reading what the text says. Earth is

H776 erets eh'-rets From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.

terra (archaic tera , the dry land, the earth, opp. to the heavens, land, ground, soil


Scripture, I believe noted that we are speaking of pretty flat land. So if there was a sudden breaking up of the sources of water along with rain this would be like a tsunami and it would be too late to run. The Ark Settled on some high places but certainly not what we know as Ararat which would leave no place for the water to run off.

Lots of research has shown that the Persian gulf was not always connected to the Ocean. That would mean that the 'Garden of Eden' would now be underwater. The land breaking suddenly as it will again in places if global warming is true

Another strong evidence is that Robert Ballard has done lots of research in the Black Sea: structures still exist under the Sea. A break allowing sea water to flood the black sea is another historical fact.

In any event if you research the words of Vain and Empty and Dark and Light it clearly points to a spiritual darkness which we know often destroys. Everyone blames God: I know a few preachers who claim that God commanded them to add instruments to what they call a "worship service." And if your landscaping plants die you can be that you get nothing because it was a ACT OF GOD.

You don't have to get it all right but you have to be a seeker to be approved by God. When people are dogmatic they make certain that you will not be a student and have to depend on them.

The Boulder area proves that telling people to move out because a flood is coming has no meaning to the masses.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 16th, 2013, 6:35 am #16

Are you still looking for the Messiah to come, or do you believe that the Bible's prophecy of a Savior/Messiah is just a fable?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Confused's questions were stated in the initial post. Now, Bill has an "are you ... or do you ..." question posed. How would you respond if Confused said yes either way?[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 16th, 2013, 6:49 am #17

"Confused" says that s/he has read the Bible cover-to-cover at least twice. Other questions that Confused may have are these: If God is perfect and omnipotent, why did He give an "imperfect" Old Covenant (Mosaic Law) in the first place? Why did He give a covenant that didn't completely do the job? Why did God first want "atonement" for sins through animal sacrifices, when His plan all along was to send Jesus to make the Final atonement? Why wasn't Jesus sent much earlier, instead of the Mosaic Law, to establish His Covenant permanently and "get the job done" once and for all time?

Perhaps the answers to these questions are the "mystery of God."

"For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isaiah 55:8,9 KJV).
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]... and hundreds and hundreds more questions similar to the ones you posed above.

Confused listed some 10 questions in the initial post. Can we provide answers to the rest of those questions first?[/color]
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September 16th, 2013, 9:27 pm #18

I believe Jesus lived. I believe he tried to change Judaism and the leaders didn't like that so they killed him. Much the same way those in the church would do today if someone professed the same things Jesus did. I believe the gospels where written many years after the fact. I believe that Jesus never asked to be worshiped and would not like the way the modern church runs today. I guess I consider myself a deist.

Or maybe at least a doubting Thomas.
It's my understanding that Deism died out in the 2nd Great Awakening between about 1810 through 1845. Jefferson and some of the early leaders of the United States are often classified as deists. Apologetic Press in Alabama (Dave Miller & associates) claim they were standard Christians (not deists), even though they were not connected with the Restoration Movement. (There is an irony here.)

Deism was discredit because it gave no hope that God would ever intervene in a person's life. They believed that God created the world like a clock, and just went off and left it. It was up to man to solve his own problems, but God had placed His laws in motion, and man had to use rationale to solve his own problems.

Deism is not the kind of religion that you would want to teach someone in the hospital. There are many who pray "God guide the hands of the doctors", but little is said about God directly bringing a cure. At least the one who prays as such, does believe that God can guide the hands of doctors.

Did you ever think that the New Testament says that Christians are the "children of God." Is there any connection between Jesus being the "son of God" and our becoming "children of God." I just want "Confused" to think about that!
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Bill
Bill

September 16th, 2013, 10:18 pm #19

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Confused's questions were stated in the initial post. Now, Bill has an "are you ... or do you ..." question posed. How would you respond if Confused said yes either way?[/color]
In the initial post, Confused primarily focused on the Old Testament and emphatically said, "I do not believe anything that happened in the Old Testament." As far as Jesus is concerned, Confused implied that it's possible to fabricate what was written in the Gospels 30 years after Jesus died. I just asked if Confused believed that some kind of Messiah (if not Jesus) was still to come, or did Confused think that everthing the Bible said about a Messiah was just a bunch of fables. In another post, Confused said s/he believed that Jesus lived on earth but seemed to doubt that He was divine. So far, Confused has not explicitly stated whether s/he believes some kind of Messiah is yet to come or whether the whole biblical concept of a Messiah is a fable. Maybe Confused has too many doubts to give a definitive answer one way or another. Now perhaps Confused will expound on this if s/he so chooses.
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Confused
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September 17th, 2013, 2:38 am #20

Here are some notes

Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.
Genesis 1:12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good


That is why some definitions define ERETS or FIRMA as the fruitful places.

Genesis 8:3 And the waters returned from off the earth continually: and after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated.

So, the waters ran OFF the earth and into the SEA. That means that the SEA was not covered by water. That is just simple reading what the text says. Earth is

H776 erets eh'-rets From an unused root probably meaning to be firm; the earth (at large, or partitively a land): X common, country, earth, field, ground, land, X nations, way, + wilderness, world.

terra (archaic tera , the dry land, the earth, opp. to the heavens, land, ground, soil


Scripture, I believe noted that we are speaking of pretty flat land. So if there was a sudden breaking up of the sources of water along with rain this would be like a tsunami and it would be too late to run. The Ark Settled on some high places but certainly not what we know as Ararat which would leave no place for the water to run off.

Lots of research has shown that the Persian gulf was not always connected to the Ocean. That would mean that the 'Garden of Eden' would now be underwater. The land breaking suddenly as it will again in places if global warming is true

Another strong evidence is that Robert Ballard has done lots of research in the Black Sea: structures still exist under the Sea. A break allowing sea water to flood the black sea is another historical fact.

In any event if you research the words of Vain and Empty and Dark and Light it clearly points to a spiritual darkness which we know often destroys. Everyone blames God: I know a few preachers who claim that God commanded them to add instruments to what they call a "worship service." And if your landscaping plants die you can be that you get nothing because it was a ACT OF GOD.

You don't have to get it all right but you have to be a seeker to be approved by God. When people are dogmatic they make certain that you will not be a student and have to depend on them.

The Boulder area proves that telling people to move out because a flood is coming has no meaning to the masses.
Is there any good books on inspiration of biblical writers and the history of the modern Christian bible? I guess my main problem is I see religion as a way to herd the sheep. Without belief tht writers were inspired by God, and God is the Hebrew God, it is a tall tale that was written after the fact to make it work. If the gospels were written years after Jesus death, any of the writers could have made up whatever prophecy they saw fit. Who back then, 30-70 years after the fact, were around to fact check?

So I would like to research the history of the bible, if any of you could suggest any good books, I would appreciate it.
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