Why Church doesn't work

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 11th, 2011, 12:46 pm #21

I hate to break this to you guys, but after reading a little more through some post, you guys are 2 different denominations sharing the same building, and preacher. Only terrible leadership could get you in this predicament. This can't last long term, one of the two viewpoints will win out. It might take 10 or 15 more years before one side or the other leaves of their own choosing or dies off.

The only thing I see as sad is a lot of people are spending time bickering with each other instead of saving souls. When I left Madison around 1998, both services were completely full. When I visited, the main auditorium needed some TLC and the balcony was empty and the bottom looked thin. I saw a noticeable decline.

Unless you are figuring out how to find middle ground, this website is destructive to the church. It seems after 6 years nobody has come any closer to a solution.
"Middle ground" sounds suspiciously like another term for "compromise." In the Church, "compromise" for the sake of maintaining "peace and harmony" means something like, "I'm willing to turn the Lord's Supper into a picnic if you're willing to have the praise team perform only two Sundays a month instead of every Sunday." OR, "I'm willing to downplay baptism as essential for salvation if you're willing to stop lobbying for IM in the Church."

"Compromise" just bastardizes New Testament examples and principles so everyone can "come together" in the same assembly without killing each other.
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July 11th, 2011, 4:08 pm #22

I went to Madison in the Steve Flatt era, and I have visited again after the split a few weeks ago. I went to the second service and I must say that it was not what I remembered. I have visited several other Churches of Christ and have seen the clapping and choirs drowning out everyone else other places as well.

I grew up Church of Christ, went to C of C college and now don't know exactly what I believe anymore. But I do know that Madison isn't Madison anymore. And the church isn't united. How many denominations can there be? How many times will the church fracture? If you wonder why kids can't pray in school and why homosexuals can adopt children, it is because the people that say they believe in God can't agree on anything.

I personally feel church is a place to worship. I think to much money goes into buildings, sound systems, production, and bribing people to come. It should go in to feeding the homeless, helping the widows, missions, and disaster aid. While I know money goes to these things, I see it being a fraction of what the church brings in.

But having said that, I see Madison Church now as a Benny Hinn show.

Science in public school is teaching children that the world is billions of years old and that we are related to apes. That the "Big Bag" caused our universe to come from nothing and that it is ever expanding. The Bible is a man made book used to control people, and put together years after Christ death.

So all I am saying is the world is getting an ever more convincing argument, and the Church of Christ is fighting amongst itself over semantics. If the church is of God, then what I have read here of Madison's problems could have been worked out. I don't get why people that love each other as christians would split. If I knew that it would offend someone I loved to clap, I wouldn't. If I thought a bunch of people out singing the rest of the church in mics was going to cause a split I would not do it. I don't get how it got to that point. But you can't have 2 services that believe 2 different things, it just looks bad.

I will do what I have been doing since I quit religion, read the Bible, learn about scientific theory, and try to see if and how they can fit together. I haven't seen to many classes at churches that tackle this issue.

From what I do know of the bible, Jesus had the apostles go out and teach the word, not have a big entertainment production. The church is now a reflection of the world and not Jesus. Mark 6:6-13 Matthew 10:13-15 Luke 9:4-6 and so on.

None of this is good for the church, and while I don't care to go, I think it is a good thing for some people.

Matthew 22:35-40
New King James Version (NKJV)

35 Then one of them, a lawyer, asked Him a question, testing Him, and saying, 36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said to him, You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.[a] 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 11th, 2011, 5:33 pm #23

If the commandment given in Matt. 22:35-40 had been the only commandment Jesus ever gave, it might be much easier for people to accept. But Jesus gave other commandments which also MUST be obeyed or there cannot be any salvation; Jesus Himself said so. There's where people go off on tangents and foul up the waters with their own personal "interpretations" of the New Testament. In matters of doctrine, stick with what is written in the New Testament. It sounds very simple, and it is; but people turn it into a mountain of difficulty.
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July 11th, 2011, 5:44 pm #24

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Actually, it should go beyond being mentioned or not mentioned. If mentioned, the context is significant. In the examples of clapping being mentioned in the Old Testament, the context clearly indicates the negative aspects of clapping -- considering the fact that clapping is clearly not associated with worship:[/color]
<ol>[*]Athaliah rent her clothes
</li>[*]Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.
</li>[*]He clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
</li>[*]Let the floods clap their hands. Oh!!!
</li>[*]All the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Oh!!!
</li>[*]All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head.
</li>[*]All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth.
</li>[*]Thou hast clapped thine hands, and <b>stamped with the feet.
</b></li>[*]I will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen...
</li>[*]I will cut thee off from the people.
</li>[*]I will cause thee to perish out of the countries.
</li>[*]I will destroy thee.
</li>[*]All that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee.

</li>[/list][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Just thought to emphasize occurrences associated with handclapping in the O.T.[/color]
This is what hand clapping means today.



hand clapping

noun
a demonstration of approval by clapping the hands together [syn: applause]
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Dave
Dave

July 11th, 2011, 8:47 pm #25

I went to Madison in the Steve Flatt era, and I have visited again after the split a few weeks ago. I went to the second service and I must say that it was not what I remembered. I have visited several other Churches of Christ and have seen the clapping and choirs drowning out everyone else other places as well.

I grew up Church of Christ, went to C of C college and now don't know exactly what I believe anymore. But I do know that Madison isn't Madison anymore. And the church isn't united. How many denominations can there be? How many times will the church fracture? If you wonder why kids can't pray in school and why homosexuals can adopt children, it is because the people that say they believe in God can't agree on anything.

I personally feel church is a place to worship. I think to much money goes into buildings, sound systems, production, and bribing people to come. It should go in to feeding the homeless, helping the widows, missions, and disaster aid. While I know money goes to these things, I see it being a fraction of what the church brings in.

But having said that, I see Madison Church now as a Benny Hinn show.

Science in public school is teaching children that the world is billions of years old and that we are related to apes. That the "Big Bag" caused our universe to come from nothing and that it is ever expanding. The Bible is a man made book used to control people, and put together years after Christ death.

So all I am saying is the world is getting an ever more convincing argument, and the Church of Christ is fighting amongst itself over semantics. If the church is of God, then what I have read here of Madison's problems could have been worked out. I don't get why people that love each other as christians would split. If I knew that it would offend someone I loved to clap, I wouldn't. If I thought a bunch of people out singing the rest of the church in mics was going to cause a split I would not do it. I don't get how it got to that point. But you can't have 2 services that believe 2 different things, it just looks bad.

I will do what I have been doing since I quit religion, read the Bible, learn about scientific theory, and try to see if and how they can fit together. I haven't seen to many classes at churches that tackle this issue.

From what I do know of the bible, Jesus had the apostles go out and teach the word, not have a big entertainment production. The church is now a reflection of the world and not Jesus. Mark 6:6-13 Matthew 10:13-15 Luke 9:4-6 and so on.

None of this is good for the church, and while I don't care to go, I think it is a good thing for some people.
Bill Crump wants to make the "middle ground" sound catastrophic and dispiteful. That is what many do when they find some young worship leader not wanting to lead "Amazing Grace' every Sunday. So he parallels "middle ground" with salvation issues, such as not being baptized, and an unapproved Lord's supper.

"Middle ground" can be praise teams that lead the worship instead of a single worship leader. Either will work fine. It could be a more charismatic worship leader who promote lifting of holy hands, uttering amens outloud, and clapping. Some congregations have a service that has a blend/mixure of all components, including praise teams and older songs.
Some congregations have distinct services: one for the traditional minded, one for the contemporary minded.
Two services that bring groups of people with two different preferences to worship, yet both sides still worshiping God and His Son.
Perfection amid a great "middle ground."
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 11th, 2011, 9:41 pm #26

This is what hand clapping means today.



hand clapping

noun
a demonstration of approval by clapping the hands together [syn: applause]
Applause/clapping is far more frequently used in the secular world to express approval, especially after a performance by one or more entertainers, at sporting events, at concerts, for political candidates, or similar events where one or more people is/are exalted as worthy of attention, praise, and accolades.

The only evidence of clapping mentioned in the Bible for ANY reason is found in the Old Testament. The words "clap," "claps," "clapped," "clapping," "applause," and "accolades" are not found anywhere in the New Testament (KJV). Suffice it to say that the early Christians did NOT express their praise to God in their assemblies with boisterous clapping.

Therefore, shall we carry our secular habits into the worship assembly and turn the assembly into something akin to a sports arena or a rock concert? Let's not bring the ways of the world into the assembly.

"And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God" (Romans 12:2 KJV).
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July 11th, 2011, 10:33 pm #27

Bill Crump wants to make the "middle ground" sound catastrophic and dispiteful. That is what many do when they find some young worship leader not wanting to lead "Amazing Grace' every Sunday. So he parallels "middle ground" with salvation issues, such as not being baptized, and an unapproved Lord's supper.

"Middle ground" can be praise teams that lead the worship instead of a single worship leader. Either will work fine. It could be a more charismatic worship leader who promote lifting of holy hands, uttering amens outloud, and clapping. Some congregations have a service that has a blend/mixure of all components, including praise teams and older songs.
Some congregations have distinct services: one for the traditional minded, one for the contemporary minded.
Two services that bring groups of people with two different preferences to worship, yet both sides still worshiping God and His Son.
Perfection amid a great "middle ground."
The doctor is a promoter of the "strawman" distraction.
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July 11th, 2011, 11:02 pm #28

Many Churches have no problems with traditional and contemporary services. Of course they have respect for each other and they know it is a preference.







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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 12th, 2011, 12:04 am #29

You get NO preferences: Paul outlawed doubtful disputations which are private opinions or preferences (Rom 14)

In Romans 15 Paul affirmed the synagogue or church of Christ from the wilderness onward which prohibited instruments.

The only reason anyone has for calling people out of bed and rest is to the Ekklesia or 'synagogue' in Paul's words. The ekklesia is defined as for PREACHING the Word by READING the Word.

Peter made that the Prophets by Christ and the prophecies made more perfect by Jesus and supernaturally validated to the Apostles: church is built upon the foundation of Prophets and Apostles. You, O mortal, have absolutely no words or legalistic acts to AID Jesus Christ as the ONLY Teacher when the elders teach that which has been taught.

If you cannot define ekklesia, Christian and Disciple by now, God HAS turned you over to your own preference.

Work on this:

What is a synagogue?
What is a Disciple?
What do disciples do when they assemble THEMSELVES.

What would it take to move beyond nursery ditties and hand clapping?

Sorry, but you don't know a single preacher who knows WHAT is a school of Christ or WHAT is a disciple. ISN'T that something of Biblical Proportions right before your flighting eyes and ears.
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July 12th, 2011, 12:10 am #30

The doctor is a promoter of the "strawman" distraction.
The old swicharoo by the doctor.




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