Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 10th, 2011, 11:59 pm #11

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Here are some points and observations to consider with regard to handclapping after a baptism:

(1) This may no longer be an issue in mega congregations but remains an issue in smaller congregations.

(2) It may not be an issue when practically the entire congregation in involved in this activity. It may remain an issue when a handful of enthusiasts does it.

(3) There remains the question of clapping as if it is the only way of expressing inward rejoicing on the part of an individual. (I do not clap but embrace when meeting a brother I haven't seen in a long time.)

(4) This type of handclapping may be programmed as the entire congregation doing it has been conditioned and expected to do so after a baptism -- when this has become established as the norm.

(5) It is an erroneous assumption that past congregations that did not perform handclapping after a baptism did not rejoice inwardly.

(6) "Just sitting and looking as the angels in heaven are celebrating" projects a physical image that the angels (up there) are clapping while celebrating and we (down here) are also clapping while celebrating.

(7) Let's not forget the difference between: (a) this type of rejoicing when one is saved -- TEARS OF JOY or an inward [heartfelt] rejoicing VERSUS (b) this type of rejoicing when one is saved -- rah-rah-rah, clap-clap-clap as expected because it has become the norm.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 11th, 2011, 12:29 am #12

I went to Madison in the Steve Flatt era, and I have visited again after the split a few weeks ago. I went to the second service and I must say that it was not what I remembered. I have visited several other Churches of Christ and have seen the clapping and choirs drowning out everyone else other places as well.

I grew up Church of Christ, went to C of C college and now don't know exactly what I believe anymore. But I do know that Madison isn't Madison anymore. And the church isn't united. How many denominations can there be? How many times will the church fracture? If you wonder why kids can't pray in school and why homosexuals can adopt children, it is because the people that say they believe in God can't agree on anything.

I personally feel church is a place to worship. I think to much money goes into buildings, sound systems, production, and bribing people to come. It should go in to feeding the homeless, helping the widows, missions, and disaster aid. While I know money goes to these things, I see it being a fraction of what the church brings in.

But having said that, I see Madison Church now as a Benny Hinn show.

Science in public school is teaching children that the world is billions of years old and that we are related to apes. That the "Big Bag" caused our universe to come from nothing and that it is ever expanding. The Bible is a man made book used to control people, and put together years after Christ death.

So all I am saying is the world is getting an ever more convincing argument, and the Church of Christ is fighting amongst itself over semantics. If the church is of God, then what I have read here of Madison's problems could have been worked out. I don't get why people that love each other as christians would split. If I knew that it would offend someone I loved to clap, I wouldn't. If I thought a bunch of people out singing the rest of the church in mics was going to cause a split I would not do it. I don't get how it got to that point. But you can't have 2 services that believe 2 different things, it just looks bad.

I will do what I have been doing since I quit religion, read the Bible, learn about scientific theory, and try to see if and how they can fit together. I haven't seen to many classes at churches that tackle this issue.

From what I do know of the bible, Jesus had the apostles go out and teach the word, not have a big entertainment production. The church is now a reflection of the world and not Jesus. Mark 6:6-13 Matthew 10:13-15 Luke 9:4-6 and so on.

None of this is good for the church, and while I don't care to go, I think it is a good thing for some people.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Great examples ... really?[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]II Kings 11[ 11] And the guard stood, every man with his weapons in his hand, round about the king, from the right corner of the temple to the left corner of the temple, along by the altar and the temple. [12] And he brought forth the king's son, and put the crown upon him, and gave him the testimony; and they made him king, and anointed him; and they clapped their hands, and said, God save the king. [13] And when Athaliah heard the noise of the guard and of the people, she came to the people into the temple of the LORD. [14] And when she looked, behold, the king stood by a pillar, as the manner was, and the princes and the trumpeters by the king, and all the people of the land rejoiced, and blew with trumpets: and Athaliah rent her clothes, and cried, Treason, Treason.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Job 27[19] The rich man shall lie down, but he shall not be gathered: he openeth his eyes, and he is not. [20] Terrors take hold on him as waters, a tempest stealeth him away in the night. [21] The east wind carrieth him away, and he departeth: and as a storm hurleth him out of his place. [22] For God shall cast upon him, and not spare: he would fain flee out of his hand. [23] Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Job 34[37] For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Psalms 98[7] Let the sea roar, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein. [8] Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together.[/color]


    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Isaiah 55[12] For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Lament. 2[15] All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head at the daughter of Jerusalem, saying, Is this the city that men call The perfection of beauty, The joy of the whole earth? [16] All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth: they say, We have swallowed her up: certainly this is the day that we looked for; we have found, we have seen it.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ezekiel 25[5] And I will make Rabbah a stable for camels, and the Ammonites a couchingplace for flocks: and ye shall know that I am the LORD. [6] For thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast clapped thine hands, and stamped with the feet, and rejoiced in heart with all thy despite against the land of Israel; [7] Behold, therefore I will stretch out mine hand upon thee, and will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen; and I will cut thee off from the people, and I will cause thee to perish out of the countries: I will destroy thee; and thou shalt know that I am the LORD.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Nahum 3[18] Thy shepherds slumber, O king of Assyria: thy nobles shall dwell in the dust: thy people is scattered upon the mountains, and no man gathereth them. [19] There is no healing of thy bruise; thy wound is grievous: all that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee: for upon whom hath not thy wickedness passed continually?[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Unless I missed it, there is not a single example of congregational worship clapping found in the New Testament. Even the word "clap" is nowhere to be found in the New Testament.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 11th, 2011, 12:49 am #13

To the progressives, it matters not whether the New Testament does or does not mention something, as long as the Old Testament does. Since the New Testament doesn't mention clapping but the Old Testament does, then that's good enough for the progressives--implement clapping into the worship assembly. The same goes for IM. Since the New Testament mentions nothing about IM in the worship assembly but the Old Testament does, that's good enough for the progressives--implement IM into the worship assembly.

I would imagine that if neither Testament mentioned something that the progressives wanted, they would "justify" it through the texts of other faiths--Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc. The rationale would be, "Do whatever it takes to get what you want. All religions are equal and lead to heaven."
Quote
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 11th, 2011, 1:49 am #14

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Actually, it should go beyond being mentioned or not mentioned. If mentioned, the context is significant. In the examples of clapping being mentioned in the Old Testament, the context clearly indicates the negative aspects of clapping -- considering the fact that clapping is clearly not associated with worship:[/color]
<ol>[*]Athaliah rent her clothes
</li>[*]Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.
</li>[*]He clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
</li>[*]Let the floods clap their hands. Oh!!!
</li>[*]All the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Oh!!!
</li>[*]All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head.
</li>[*]All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth.
</li>[*]Thou hast clapped thine hands, and <b>stamped with the feet.
</b></li>[*]I will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen...
</li>[*]I will cut thee off from the people.
</li>[*]I will cause thee to perish out of the countries.
</li>[*]I will destroy thee.
</li>[*]All that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee.

</li>[/list][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Just thought to emphasize occurrences associated with handclapping in the O.T.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Dave
Dave

July 11th, 2011, 2:17 am #15

I went to Madison in the Steve Flatt era, and I have visited again after the split a few weeks ago. I went to the second service and I must say that it was not what I remembered. I have visited several other Churches of Christ and have seen the clapping and choirs drowning out everyone else other places as well.

I grew up Church of Christ, went to C of C college and now don't know exactly what I believe anymore. But I do know that Madison isn't Madison anymore. And the church isn't united. How many denominations can there be? How many times will the church fracture? If you wonder why kids can't pray in school and why homosexuals can adopt children, it is because the people that say they believe in God can't agree on anything.

I personally feel church is a place to worship. I think to much money goes into buildings, sound systems, production, and bribing people to come. It should go in to feeding the homeless, helping the widows, missions, and disaster aid. While I know money goes to these things, I see it being a fraction of what the church brings in.

But having said that, I see Madison Church now as a Benny Hinn show.

Science in public school is teaching children that the world is billions of years old and that we are related to apes. That the "Big Bag" caused our universe to come from nothing and that it is ever expanding. The Bible is a man made book used to control people, and put together years after Christ death.

So all I am saying is the world is getting an ever more convincing argument, and the Church of Christ is fighting amongst itself over semantics. If the church is of God, then what I have read here of Madison's problems could have been worked out. I don't get why people that love each other as christians would split. If I knew that it would offend someone I loved to clap, I wouldn't. If I thought a bunch of people out singing the rest of the church in mics was going to cause a split I would not do it. I don't get how it got to that point. But you can't have 2 services that believe 2 different things, it just looks bad.

I will do what I have been doing since I quit religion, read the Bible, learn about scientific theory, and try to see if and how they can fit together. I haven't seen to many classes at churches that tackle this issue.

From what I do know of the bible, Jesus had the apostles go out and teach the word, not have a big entertainment production. The church is now a reflection of the world and not Jesus. Mark 6:6-13 Matthew 10:13-15 Luke 9:4-6 and so on.

None of this is good for the church, and while I don't care to go, I think it is a good thing for some people.
In another words....."You like what you have always liked, and don't prefer what others like."

It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it is wrong or right, or if it is in line with the Scriptures or not.

What you consider to be "good enough" may not be so for someone else.

Maybe someone wants to start a NEW tradition? No place for that for that...is there?
Quote
Share

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 11th, 2011, 2:39 am #16

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Actually, it should go beyond being mentioned or not mentioned. If mentioned, the context is significant. In the examples of clapping being mentioned in the Old Testament, the context clearly indicates the negative aspects of clapping -- considering the fact that clapping is clearly not associated with worship:[/color]
<ol>[*]Athaliah rent her clothes
</li>[*]Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.
</li>[*]He clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
</li>[*]Let the floods clap their hands. Oh!!!
</li>[*]All the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Oh!!!
</li>[*]All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head.
</li>[*]All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth.
</li>[*]Thou hast clapped thine hands, and <b>stamped with the feet.
</b></li>[*]I will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen...
</li>[*]I will cut thee off from the people.
</li>[*]I will cause thee to perish out of the countries.
</li>[*]I will destroy thee.
</li>[*]All that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee.

</li>[/list][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Just thought to emphasize occurrences associated with handclapping in the O.T.[/color]
That's all well and good, but I really don't think the progressives look at certain Scriptures THAT closely. All they care about, it appears, is that clapping (or IM or whatever they want) is PRESENT in the Old Testament--who cares about "context," their attitude says. As long as it's THERE, it's "inspired" and is "good" for however the progressives want to use it.
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 11th, 2011, 3:15 am #17

In another words....."You like what you have always liked, and don't prefer what others like."

It has nothing whatsoever to do with whether it is wrong or right, or if it is in line with the Scriptures or not.

What you consider to be "good enough" may not be so for someone else.

Maybe someone wants to start a NEW tradition? No place for that for that...is there?
I met a sad, sad man at the institute!

He told me he was an astronaut so I asked him to define an astronaut.
He got mad and said I don't need to know how to define it: I am an astronaut.

Yes, but you told me that you were Napoleon last week.
Well, that was then but this is now.

He also said that he was a Christian but didn't know what it meant.
Said he was a member of the church but couldn't explain the meaning of "church."

I doubt that he cold tell us the meaning of Is Is.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: July 8th, 2011, 5:02 am

July 11th, 2011, 5:01 am #18

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Actually, it should go beyond being mentioned or not mentioned. If mentioned, the context is significant. In the examples of clapping being mentioned in the Old Testament, the context clearly indicates the negative aspects of clapping -- considering the fact that clapping is clearly not associated with worship:[/color]
<ol>[*]Athaliah rent her clothes
</li>[*]Men shall clap their hands at him, and shall hiss him out of his place.
</li>[*]He clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.
</li>[*]Let the floods clap their hands. Oh!!!
</li>[*]All the trees of the field shall clap their hands. Oh!!!
</li>[*]All that pass by clap their hands at thee; they hiss and wag their head.
</li>[*]All thine enemies have opened their mouth against thee: they hiss and gnash the teeth.
</li>[*]Thou hast clapped thine hands, and <b>stamped with the feet.
</b></li>[*]I will deliver thee for a spoil to the heathen...
</li>[*]I will cut thee off from the people.
</li>[*]I will cause thee to perish out of the countries.
</li>[*]I will destroy thee.
</li>[*]All that hear the bruit of thee shall clap the hands over thee.

</li>[/list][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Just thought to emphasize occurrences associated with handclapping in the O.T.[/color]
I hate to break this to you guys, but after reading a little more through some post, you guys are 2 different denominations sharing the same building, and preacher. Only terrible leadership could get you in this predicament. This can't last long term, one of the two viewpoints will win out. It might take 10 or 15 more years before one side or the other leaves of their own choosing or dies off.

The only thing I see as sad is a lot of people are spending time bickering with each other instead of saving souls. When I left Madison around 1998, both services were completely full. When I visited, the main auditorium needed some TLC and the balcony was empty and the bottom looked thin. I saw a noticeable decline.

Unless you are figuring out how to find middle ground, this website is destructive to the church. It seems after 6 years nobody has come any closer to a solution.
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 11th, 2011, 5:06 am #19

That's all well and good, but I really don't think the progressives look at certain Scriptures THAT closely. All they care about, it appears, is that clapping (or IM or whatever they want) is PRESENT in the Old Testament--who cares about "context," their attitude says. As long as it's THERE, it's "inspired" and is "good" for however the progressives want to use it.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I agree and we know that they pay no attention to references and the text. But it's worth the try to list the context bolded and underscored without the references for which they have no regard.

As in this case, associated with clapping, the emphases are now on hissing ... Ahtaliah going naked ... multiplying words AGAINST God ... stamping with the feet ... gnashing the teeth ... being cut off from the people ... etc.

We cannot equate presenting arguments against clapping to/with presenting arguments against instrumental music. The mere mention of both elements as being present in the OT but not in the NT does not prove anything in the same manner.

Clapping is man's expression of his emotions and it boils down to its display of IRREVERENCE and how ANNOYING, DISTRACTING and OFFENSIVE it may be to others. Clapping can be wrong when it becomes a stumbling block to a brother or sister and is sinful when it causes the body to SPLIT.

Instrumental music -- when associated with "WORSHIP" -- is an ADDED element that man has concocted for it has NEVER BEEN A COMMANDMENT nor A DIRECTIVE from God at any time: NOT in the Old Testament era; NOT in the era of the the NT/1st century Christians. In fact, it is not scripturally accurate to simply state that it was OK that or because God's followers practiced it during the OT dispensation. [/color]
Quote
Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 11th, 2011, 5:54 am #20

I hate to break this to you guys, but after reading a little more through some post, you guys are 2 different denominations sharing the same building, and preacher. Only terrible leadership could get you in this predicament. This can't last long term, one of the two viewpoints will win out. It might take 10 or 15 more years before one side or the other leaves of their own choosing or dies off.

The only thing I see as sad is a lot of people are spending time bickering with each other instead of saving souls. When I left Madison around 1998, both services were completely full. When I visited, the main auditorium needed some TLC and the balcony was empty and the bottom looked thin. I saw a noticeable decline.

Unless you are figuring out how to find middle ground, this website is destructive to the church. It seems after 6 years nobody has come any closer to a solution.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Jon, FYI, I'm the only one among the current posters from the Madison congregation. So, it is not the bickering going on between two groups from Madison as you obviously think. I just wanted you to know that. So, I would encourage you to read a lot more about other threads.

This website was initiated near the time the division at Madison was "work in progress" in 2001 -- about 3 years after you had already left. We cannot underestimate the turmoil and difficulties the congregation was going through at that time. Thanks to the CHANGE AGENTS who had already intruded other mega congregations of the church of Christ and who were now victimizing the Madison congregation. You mentioned Vision 2000. You left in 1998. The transformation of Madison was taking shape in the 1990s. I wasn't aware of it. You weren't aware of it, either, more likely. Then in 2001, the split in membership between those who left and those who remained was right in the middle: from 3000 (when the main auditorium and the balcony were full) dwindling to about 1500 when the balcony was empty WHEN YOU VISITED).

In regard to the Madison congregation alone, I fully agree with your assessment. The church is divided between: "traditional" and "contemporary" -- such should not be the case. There is no unity in spirit and in the bond of peace, as some might claim that there is. I really have no way of predicting the outcome of this division. Part of the problem, I believe, is the lack of recognition in the leadership that the split actually occurred. And I believe also that whatever remedies and corrective measures are being taken now will be to no avail when there's no acknowledgment of the division and the REASONS or CAUSES of the division.

So, I just would like to clarify:

(1) That the "bickering" is not between two sides of the Madison members. Rather, it is OVER the efforts of the change agents operating in the brotherhood, who have the determination to "grow the church" by whatever culture-driven means, even if it is a departure from the gospel of Christ or compromising the truth just to increase numbers. The bickering is between: (1) those who are pro-change agents, pro-Change Movement--who are dividing congregations they influence; and (2) those who will continue to defend [and not compromise] the truth and remain loyal to the church.

(2) This website will continue to warn other congregations to be diligent and deny change agents entrance and involvement in their affairs.

I hope I have clarified some of the misunderstanding of this website's objectives.[/color]
Quote
Like
Share