Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles?

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 22nd, 2011, 5:34 pm #11

Ken,

Your obsession with musical instruments has made you not only intolerant of any opinion other than your own, it has made you clueless and blind. The article by Alexander Campbell posted had nothing to do with intruments. It had to do with those who force their opinions on others, and pass judgement on others and cause divisions based on their opinions, which is exactly what you and this website do. You are so paranoid with your obsession that you see instruments where there are none, force your intolerance on others, see it in others where there is none, and sinfully divide from other believers based on your obsessed opinion. You are exactly the kind of person Alexander Campbell warned Christians about in the article I posted.
People lie, cheat and steal the church houses of widows
and then they mark you as crazy if you dare to question the house invaders: spiritual terrorists.

If you go to a candy store you will find that they are obsessed with candy.
If you go to piney.com you will find all of the key documents on instrumental (legal) religion from clay tablets to the latest church invaders.

You will find that all of it is linked and cross linked and you can test for yourself if you can find any instrumental music used in religion which is NOT the mark of them effeminate or worse. Amos and John calls the fruits, sorcerers, to be cast alive into the lake of fire.

Then you can find that your dominant priest collects YOUR money without authority PLANNING to divert it into his / her favorite obsession with singing boys and girls. If they will deliberate mind-control the youth (brain not even formed) to LEAVE OUR MOVEMENT then you cannot find any better manifestation of evil.

And Ray HOPES that those warning against the banditos can be branded as crazy or senile. That is part of the marks of the crooked race were are to save OURSELVES from.

It is a falsehood to TRY to say that what John Calvin launched as the Restoration of the Church of Christ ever had any more relationship to the Anglical (Catholic) based Disciples than to any other group they attempted to call back to pealing off all of their clergy and creeds which STOPPED local groups from coming together to

READ and MEDITATE on the Word of God.
The "scholars" are misleaders: Alexander campbell never did or intended to be united with any denomination organization: he said that there were undoubtedly baptized believers (Christians) in all of the Sects: if so, they should "come out of Babylon."

As long as they lie TO God and ABOUT God when they think they have found a jot or tittle which does not REPUDIATE using machines as ignorant superstition. Alll instrumental performance is UNIVERSALLY identified with lost or fearful people trying to SEDUCE or APPEASE their image of god.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 23rd, 2011, 1:54 am #12

Rick Atchley being mentored by David Faust, NACC president that year:

Rick.Atchley.Chris.Seidman.Instrumental.Music.Delusion.html

Rick Atchley and Chris Seidman musical delusions.

Well, we discipled the children of those progressive churches
for a whole generation to grow past us Boomers.
They never heard the sermons we heard.
They never heard the rationale for a cappella music.

We sent them to youth rallies and Church of Christ events
with some of the finest Christian bands in the world.
We discipled our children to leave our Movement!


Any time anyone IMPOSES instruments they know that they will EXCLUDE those who will not participate in the idolatry of talent.

They EXCLUDE the ex-owners from questioning the "leaders" or speaking against them hostile takeover.

If you throw a skunk into a widow's living room you PLAN to EXCLUDE the widows.
"THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. 1 Cor 13:1
Chalkos (g5475) khal-kos'; perh. from 5465 through the idea of hollowing out as a vessel (this metal being chiefly used for that purpose); copper (the substance, or some implement or coin made of it): - brass, money.

Chaldaios (g5466) khal-dah'-yos; prob. of Heb. or. [3778]; a Chaldoean (i.e. Kasdi), or native or the region of the lower Euphrates: - Chaldaean.

Kasdiy (h3778) kas-dee' (occasionally with enclitic kasdymah, kas-dee'-maw; towards the Kasdites: -into Chaldea), patron. from 3777 (only in the plur.); a Kasdite, or desc. of Kesed; by impl. a Chaldoean (as if so descended); also an astrologer (as if proverbial of that people: - Chaldeans, Chaldees, inhabitants of Chaldea
When you write your own "scriptures" in song and sermon you INTEND to make the lambs dumb fefore the slaughter." Why else would advanced "scholars" promote instrumental music even when it sows discord and proves HATRED for the captives and God and His Word.

Dodona: ancient sanctuary of the chief Greek god, Zeus, in Epirus, Greece; the ceremonies held there had many remarkable and abnormal features. The earliest mention of it is in the Iliad (xvi, 234), where its priests are called the Selloi (or Helloi) and are described as "of unwashen feet, sleeping on the ground." The description suggests worshipers or servants of an earth goddess or of some chthonian power with whom they kept in continual contact, day and night. Homer (Odyssey, xiv, 327) was also the first to mention the oracle at Dodona.

REPUDIATING ALL OF THE LEGALISTIC PATTERNISM OF THE INSTRUMENTAL SECTARIANS.

Isaiah 28:15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death (Amos), and with HELL are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
Isaiah 28:18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

A tree (or trees) was reputed to give oracles, presumably through the rustling of its leaves and other sounds. Herodotus, but no earlier writer, mentions priestesses, whom he describes as the givers of the oracles, doubtless under some kind of inspiration from the god.

A further peculiarity of Dodona was the "bronze," a large GONG set vibrating at every breeze by a scourge held in the hand of a figure standing over it;

the persistent ringing passed into a Greek proverbial phrase--Khalkos Dodones ("Brass of Dodona")-- for a continuous talker who has NOTHING to say. Britannica Members

"A famous oracle in Epi'ros, and the most ancient of Greece. It was dedicated to Zeus (Jupiter), and situate in the village of Dodna.

The tale is, that Jupiter presented his daughter Theb with two black pigeons which had the gift of human speech. Lemprière tells us that the Greek word peleiai (pigeons) means, in the dialect of the Eprots, old women; so that the two black doves with human voice were two black or African women. One went to Libya, in Africa, and founded the oracle of Jupiter Ammon; the other went to Eprus and founded the oracle of Dodna. We are also told that plates of brass were suspended on the oak trees of Dodona, which being struck by thongs when the wind blew, gave various sounds from which the responses were concocted. It appears that this suggested to the Greeks the phrase Kalkos Dod ns (brass of Dodona), meaning a babbler, or one who talks an infinite deal of nothing. Bartleby

That would suggest that ANY Disciple of Christ would ask about the "spirit" descending like a DOVE and identifying the FATHER of a SON instead of the MOTHER of a DAUGHTER.


I think babblers must be female pigeons.
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Dave
Dave

December 26th, 2011, 3:27 am #13

Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles? Madison CofC? Piney.com? ConcernedMembers.com?

From the writings of Alexander Campbell - The Christian Baptist, Volume VII, #11, June 7, 1830, pp. 650-656:

"WHAT means this intolerant spirit? I ask again, What is the meaning of it? Is every man who acknowledges in word and deed the supreme authority of Jesus of Nazareth as Lord Messiah--who has vowed allegiance to him--who is of good report as respects good works, to be sacrificed upon the altar of opinion--because his opinion upon some speculation, fact, or doctrine, differs from mine? Because, while he admits that Jesus died for our sins, he will not dogmatize upon the nature, extent and every attribute of "the atonement"--is he to be deemed unfit for the kingdom of heaven? Admitting "an election of favor," is he to be given over to Satan because of some opinion about the conditionality or unconditionality of that election?--In one word, are we to understand that an exact agreement in opinion, a perfect uniformity is contended for as a bond of union? If so, let our Baptist brethren say so. Let them declare to the world, that

"Tenth, or ten thousandth, breaks the chain alike."

That a disagreement in the tenth opinion, or in the ten thousandth opinion, breaks the bond of union. If this be the decree, let it be published and translated into all languages--let it be known and read by all men. If, again, a perfect uniformity be not decreed, but a partial uniformity, let it be proclaimed in how many opinions an agreement must be obtained; then we shall know who are, and who are not, to be treated as heathen men and publicans.

What makes divisions now? The man who sets up his private judgments as the standard of truth, and compels submission to them; or the man who will bear with a brother who thinks in some things differently from him?

No man can, with either reason or fact on his side, accuse me of making divisions among christians. I declare non-fellowship with no man who owns the Lord in word and deed. Such is a christian. He that denies the Lord in word or deed is not a christian. A Jew or a Gentile he may be, a Pharisee or a Sadducee he may be, but a Christian he cannot be! If a man confess the Lord Jesus, or acknowledge him as the only Saviour sent by God: if he vow allegiance to him, and submit to his government, I will recognize him as a christian and treat him as such. If a man cause divisions and offences by setting up his own decisions, his private judgment, we must consider him as a factionist, and as such he must be excluded--not for his difference in opinions, but because he makes his opinion an idol, and demands homage to it.

There are some preachers in the East and in the West--some self-conceited, opinionative dogmatizers, who are determined to rend...into fractions by their intolerance. They wish moreover to blame it upon us. As well might they blame the sun for its light and heat as blame us for creating divisions. When we shall have cut off from the church any person or persons because of a difference of opinion, then they may say, with reason, we cause divisions. Till then it is gratuitous. They are the heretics, not we. Yes, they are the heresiarchs, and will be so regarded by all the intelligent on earth, and by all in heaven."
"I think babblers must be female pigeons."

You certainly don't look like a pigeon, but now that you've mentioned it....

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The response coming from an elder of a congregation of the church at Clemson, SC.[/color]
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on December 26th, 2011, 6:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 26th, 2011, 6:11 pm #14

Christ in Ezekiel 33 used by Jesus to define Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites is repeated in the form of thesis and antithesis to fool to foolish.


<table border="1" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" width="100%"><tr><td valign="top" width="50%">1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,
 


</td><td valign="top">1Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries,

       and all knowledge; and though I have all faith,
       so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity,</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">I am become 
</td><td valign="top"> I am 
</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">as sounding BRASS, or a tinkling CYMBAL. </td><td valign="top">NOTHING. </td></tr></table>
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 16th, 2012, 5:57 am #15

Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles? Madison CofC? Piney.com? ConcernedMembers.com?

From the writings of Alexander Campbell - The Christian Baptist, Volume VII, #11, June 7, 1830, pp. 650-656:

"WHAT means this intolerant spirit? I ask again, What is the meaning of it? Is every man who acknowledges in word and deed the supreme authority of Jesus of Nazareth as Lord Messiah--who has vowed allegiance to him--who is of good report as respects good works, to be sacrificed upon the altar of opinion--because his opinion upon some speculation, fact, or doctrine, differs from mine? Because, while he admits that Jesus died for our sins, he will not dogmatize upon the nature, extent and every attribute of "the atonement"--is he to be deemed unfit for the kingdom of heaven? Admitting "an election of favor," is he to be given over to Satan because of some opinion about the conditionality or unconditionality of that election?--In one word, are we to understand that an exact agreement in opinion, a perfect uniformity is contended for as a bond of union? If so, let our Baptist brethren say so. Let them declare to the world, that

"Tenth, or ten thousandth, breaks the chain alike."

That a disagreement in the tenth opinion, or in the ten thousandth opinion, breaks the bond of union. If this be the decree, let it be published and translated into all languages--let it be known and read by all men. If, again, a perfect uniformity be not decreed, but a partial uniformity, let it be proclaimed in how many opinions an agreement must be obtained; then we shall know who are, and who are not, to be treated as heathen men and publicans.

What makes divisions now? The man who sets up his private judgments as the standard of truth, and compels submission to them; or the man who will bear with a brother who thinks in some things differently from him?

No man can, with either reason or fact on his side, accuse me of making divisions among christians. I declare non-fellowship with no man who owns the Lord in word and deed. Such is a christian. He that denies the Lord in word or deed is not a christian. A Jew or a Gentile he may be, a Pharisee or a Sadducee he may be, but a Christian he cannot be! If a man confess the Lord Jesus, or acknowledge him as the only Saviour sent by God: if he vow allegiance to him, and submit to his government, I will recognize him as a christian and treat him as such. If a man cause divisions and offences by setting up his own decisions, his private judgment, we must consider him as a factionist, and as such he must be excluded--not for his difference in opinions, but because he makes his opinion an idol, and demands homage to it.

There are some preachers in the East and in the West--some self-conceited, opinionative dogmatizers, who are determined to rend...into fractions by their intolerance. They wish moreover to blame it upon us. As well might they blame the sun for its light and heat as blame us for creating divisions. When we shall have cut off from the church any person or persons because of a difference of opinion, then they may say, with reason, we cause divisions. Till then it is gratuitous. They are the heretics, not we. Yes, they are the heresiarchs, and will be so regarded by all the intelligent on earth, and by all in heaven."
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles"?

Great question, Ray.

But the problem with your choices is that it is:

        (a) The Madison congregation

        ----------------- VERSUS -----------------

        (b) The website (ConcernedMembers.com/Piney.com)

I'll make the correction for you quickly. Here are the more valid and logical distinctions or contrasting elements:

Piney.com[/color] >->->->->-> Strong supporter of the Restoration Movement and its principles -- the New Testament as the only rule of faith and practice; denunciation of denominationalism, creeds and human authority; replete with with well-researched data, references, links to resources that pertain to biblical accounts of music, music and dancing, musical idolatry as proven by historical accounts. Exposes the denominational doctrines and polluted teachings of the anti-church of Christ change agents of our day -- Jay Guin, Max Lucado, Rick Atchley, Rubel Shelly, et al.

------------------ vs. -----------------

<font size="4">BandofChangeAgents.com
>->->->->-> Liberals and progressives attempting to rewrite/revise the Restoration Movement history; to transform the church of Christ into a denomination; to improve upon the simple teachings found in the NEW Testament; to embrace [instead of denounce] denominationalism; to compromise the truth to gain acceptance into denominational churches; etc.


What about ConcernedMembers.com? No, I have not forgotten. Simply substitute "ConcernedMembers.com" for "Piney.com" -- it supports the Restoration Movement and the church of Christ just the same. The only difference is that CM is a religious discussion forum. Both will defend RM and the New Testament church of Jesus Christ against the discordant change agents operating in the brotherhood, against the liberals and progressives who, at the end of it all, are anti-church of Christ.</font>
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

January 16th, 2012, 6:28 pm #16

Who is more aligned with Restoration Movement principles? Madison CofC? Piney.com? ConcernedMembers.com?

From the writings of Alexander Campbell - The Christian Baptist, Volume VII, #11, June 7, 1830, pp. 650-656:

"WHAT means this intolerant spirit? I ask again, What is the meaning of it? Is every man who acknowledges in word and deed the supreme authority of Jesus of Nazareth as Lord Messiah--who has vowed allegiance to him--who is of good report as respects good works, to be sacrificed upon the altar of opinion--because his opinion upon some speculation, fact, or doctrine, differs from mine? Because, while he admits that Jesus died for our sins, he will not dogmatize upon the nature, extent and every attribute of "the atonement"--is he to be deemed unfit for the kingdom of heaven? Admitting "an election of favor," is he to be given over to Satan because of some opinion about the conditionality or unconditionality of that election?--In one word, are we to understand that an exact agreement in opinion, a perfect uniformity is contended for as a bond of union? If so, let our Baptist brethren say so. Let them declare to the world, that

"Tenth, or ten thousandth, breaks the chain alike."

That a disagreement in the tenth opinion, or in the ten thousandth opinion, breaks the bond of union. If this be the decree, let it be published and translated into all languages--let it be known and read by all men. If, again, a perfect uniformity be not decreed, but a partial uniformity, let it be proclaimed in how many opinions an agreement must be obtained; then we shall know who are, and who are not, to be treated as heathen men and publicans.

What makes divisions now? The man who sets up his private judgments as the standard of truth, and compels submission to them; or the man who will bear with a brother who thinks in some things differently from him?

No man can, with either reason or fact on his side, accuse me of making divisions among christians. I declare non-fellowship with no man who owns the Lord in word and deed. Such is a christian. He that denies the Lord in word or deed is not a christian. A Jew or a Gentile he may be, a Pharisee or a Sadducee he may be, but a Christian he cannot be! If a man confess the Lord Jesus, or acknowledge him as the only Saviour sent by God: if he vow allegiance to him, and submit to his government, I will recognize him as a christian and treat him as such. If a man cause divisions and offences by setting up his own decisions, his private judgment, we must consider him as a factionist, and as such he must be excluded--not for his difference in opinions, but because he makes his opinion an idol, and demands homage to it.

There are some preachers in the East and in the West--some self-conceited, opinionative dogmatizers, who are determined to rend...into fractions by their intolerance. They wish moreover to blame it upon us. As well might they blame the sun for its light and heat as blame us for creating divisions. When we shall have cut off from the church any person or persons because of a difference of opinion, then they may say, with reason, we cause divisions. Till then it is gratuitous. They are the heretics, not we. Yes, they are the heresiarchs, and will be so regarded by all the intelligent on earth, and by all in heaven."
ALL OF THE ANTI-church of Christ blobs are dedicated to endorsing musical instruments as approved by God AND using all of the RACA words on those who use Scripture to refute them. Even so-called Conservatives follow the attack: blame the INVADED for resisting having their church family destroyed. That is the oldest Guilt Clause known. Furthermore, there is no ROLE and no DOLE for any kind of entertainment Self-speak sermons.

<table border="1" cellpadding="6" cellspacing="2" width="100%"><tr><td valign="top">[color=#000000" face="Arial]
Ezek. 33:31 And they come unto thee AS the people
cometh, [/color]
[color=#000000" face="Arial]and they sit
before thee AS my people, [/color]
[color=#000000" face="Arial]and they hear thy words, but they will
not do them:
[/color]

[color=#000000" face="Arial]    
  for with their mouth they shew much love, [/color]

[color=#000000" face="Arial]   
    but their heart goeth
after their covetousness.
[/color]
</td><td valign="top" width="50%">1Corinthians 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity,


Ezekiel 33: 

<span class="la">inculcantes</span>
   <span class="la">abellae</b></span> <span class="la">fpreach to a stone, short play
   propter <b>elegantiam
  delicate, effeminate
   sermonis</span> disputation, oratio:
   Scribe writing your own.
      Gestus to report, blab
     <span class="la">carmina,</span> <span class="la">poëmata</span> Versibus
</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">Ezekiel 33:32NIV Indeed, to them you are NOTHING MORE
</td><td valign="top">I am become</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">than one who sings love songs with a beautiful voice
and plays an instrument well, for they hear your words
but do not put them into practice.</td><td valign="top">as sounding BRASS, or a tinkling CYMBAL.</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">[color=#000000" face="Arial]Ezek. 33:31 And they come unto thee AS the people
cometh, [/color][color=#000000" face="Arial]and they sit
before thee AS my people, [/color]
[color=#000000" face="Arial]and they hear thy words, but they will
not do
them:
[/color]
[color=#000000" face="Arial]for with their mouth they shew much love, [/color][color=#000000" face="Arial]
but their heart goeth
after their covetousness.
[/color]

</td><td valign="top">1Corinthians 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries,



 and all knowledge; and though I have all faith,

 so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity</td></tr><tr><td valign="top">Ezekiel 33:32NIV Indeed, to them you </td><td valign="top"> I Am  </td></tr><tr><td valign="top"> are NOTHING MORE</td><td valign="top">NOTHING
</td></tr></table>

NOW YOU KNOW why no one of the scholarly or preacher level knows or cares about the prophets by CHRIST which always REPUDIATE whatever is done by the Civil-Military-Clergy complex. You don't know a pseudo conservative who will NOT hurt you for denying that God commanded congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment under the OLD LAW. That proves that they see godliness as a means of financial gain (occupation) and are not students and do not want anyone from the pews to get uppity.
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Joined: January 28th, 2012, 10:19 pm

February 29th, 2012, 8:04 pm #17

I know of those who have been complicit in the current and previous falling away who view their calling as a career and not a solemn trust as in Titus and TImothy. Some have used tactics learned in secular organizations which amount to "how to get my way" by cruel and harsh words. They would do well to remember the statement in the Bible that God will judge every idle word.

I also know of those who have not bowed to any idol or wind of doctrine over the last 50 years. I remember them often to encourage and edify myself and others.

comments welcome
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 1st, 2012, 12:12 am #18

...which raises the question, who or what are we loyal to? Is it Jesus? Or is it the Church of Christ? I submit we have a tendency to lean toward the latter.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 1st, 2012, 2:44 am #19

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

Yours is an illogical comparison. It appears that you're in doubt that the church that Christ established belongs to Him.

It should be loyalty to: (a) Christ, the founder of His church, VERSUS (b) any of the men/women founders of their respective churches.

It should be loyalty to: (a) the church that Christ built VERSUS (b) any of the denominational bodies founded by man/woman.

This is the fallacy that the change agents embrace, a departure from the New Testament teachings concerning the church of our Lord Jesus Christ and from the Restoration Movement principles. The change agents are busy rewriting the RM history and promoting the concept that the church of Christ is just "another denomination."[/color]
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B
B

March 1st, 2012, 2:53 am #20

...which raises the question, who or what are we loyal to? Is it Jesus? Or is it the Church of Christ? I submit we have a tendency to lean toward the latter.
If a person is truly loyal to Christ, then s/he will be a member of the Church that Christ founded, which is the Church of Christ. S/he will not be a member of the Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Roman Catholic, or any of the scores of other denominations, because Christ never founded them. Not one of those denominations is mentioned in the New Testament, because they are man-made. The New Testament mentions those congregations that are loyal to Christ, which are the churches of Christ. Observe:

The churches of Christ salute you (Romans 16:16b KJV).

Notice that the New Testament does NOT say, "The Baptist churches salute you," or "The Roman Catholic churches salute you," or "The Presbyterian churches salute you," etc. etc. blah blah. Those who are truly loyal to Christ comprise the Church of Christ. The individually loyal congregations are the churches of Christ.

The denominations cannot be members of the Church of Christ, because they are NOT completely loyal to Christ's teachings. Some denominations allow female officers in the Church; others dismiss baptism as essential for salvation; most denominations have instrumental music; some allow divorce and remarriage for any reason, as long as the two parties are "in love," because (so they reason) God would not want people to be unhappy; some also allow homosexual officers in the Church; some condone rattling off prefabricated, professionally written prayers over and over, which are forms of vain repetition; many observe "special holy days" (which the New Testament does not confirm) in addition to the first day of the week; many subscribe to "God didn't say not to," when nothing of the sort is recorded in the New Testament. The list could go on and on.
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