Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 4th, 2012, 11:36 pm #21

Also, this is the first great rock on which the Protestant Reformation is founded.

1. "SCRIPTURES ALONE" or "Sola Scriptura".

The alternative was Church Tradition, the creeds, the councils, the encylicals, and the hierarchy of authority that divested every individual Christian from his or her right to read, understand, and apply the Word of God according to their ability and understanding.

Other rocks were 2. Christ, 3. Grace, 4. Faith, and 5. Glory to God.

This is not to enthrone these five or make them a creed!
Early scholars used the term Apostolic Church: that demanded that faith and practice be based on the writings of the Apostles recognizing that no one after them had the authority to make changes.

I would challenge them to find a scholar who did not make Scripture the only rule of faith and practice even when they misunderstood them.

Only our latter day "progressives" mock the idea that God has the right to command, example or even infer for one seeking to know the truth rather than trying to make up a new institution. They collect bits and pieces and make up their OWN.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 4th, 2012, 11:44 pm #22

Trinitarianism was not fully developed even at the end of the 2nd century AD (100-199 AD), when Irenaeus an early theologian emphasized the monotheistic nature of Christianity, that is, "one God", and that is the Father. But Irenaeus goes on to say "the Father is God, and the Son is God, for whatever is begotten of God is God" (c. 180, Adversus Haereses (Against Heresies), Irenaeus, 47) Although he implies that the Spirit is divine in his eyes, he sees the three not as three equal persons, but as a single person. The Father Who is the Godhead Itself, with His mind, or rationality, and His wisdom. With this monotheism, Irenaeus obscures the position of the Son and the Spirit as "Persons", to use modern terminology.

2nd century theologians represent the three not as coequal persons as did the Nicene Creed of 325 AD but as a single person, "the Father Who is the Godhead Itself, with His mind, or rationality, and His wisdom" (p. 108, Early Christian Doctrines, 1978, JND Kelly). These thinkers were anxious to offer Christianity as monotheism (one God), obscuring the position of the Son and the Spirit as "persons."

The theories of "Popes" Zephyrinus (198-217) and Callistus (217-222) thought that the theories of Hippolytus and Tertullian led to ditheism (I'm not sure if restorationism recognizes them as popes). Others regarded the Son and the Spirit as expansions or projections of the One God the Father.

I could go on and on, but trinitarianism was not full-blown until the Nicene Creed in 325 AD. This brings us to the application of Restorationism. For those wishing to restore primitive Christianity, therefore, the term trinity is generally "invisible", that is never mentioned.

Scriptures Alone suggest that we should speak where the Bible speaks, and remain silent where the Bible is silent. That our people are not aware of these issues today shows the great dearth existing in the pulpit today, with too much emphases on programs and "smooth" Christianity. Polished Christianity can create a bulging crowd, as long as the membership was taught rightly in the past, but with just a few decades of smooth preaching, all doctrinal foundations are erased and the church is just left with the remnants called "ritual." "Ritual" then itself fails when the membership begins to call in question all the basics. Then it is too late. Smooth preaching began in mid-20th century and has continued until the present.
2nd century theologians represent the three not as coequal persons as did the Nicene Creed of 325 AD but as a single person, "the Father Who is the Godhead Itself, with His mind, or rationality, and His wisdom" (p. 108, Early Christian Doctrines, 1978, JND Kelly). These thinkers were anxious to offer Christianity as monotheism (one God), obscuring the position of the Son and the Spirit as "persons."

Well done. They would say that God always has His Word and Wisdom with Him: the Son of God is His Word. I believe that is what the Campbells believed. Alexander was harsh against Calvin for his use of "person" but someone forced Calvin to use "the three aspects of God."

Personae was not a "people" in the modern trinitarian view. If God SENDS FORTH His Word then the Sender and Sent are different and I think that is where the neo-trinitarians run off the track.
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Racnor
Racnor

September 5th, 2012, 5:21 pm #23

Ken, more words from Jesus Christ.

8 I tell you, whoever publicly acknowledges me before others, the Son of Man will also acknowledge before the angels of God. 9 But whoever disowns me before others will be disowned before the angels of God. 10 And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.

Luke 12, 8-10
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2012, 2:08 am #24

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]What Spirit? The Spirit WHICH is HOLY? WHOSE Spirit? God's holy Spirit -- of course.

Whose Spirit? Not Donnie's. Not any man's spirit? It is God's holy Spirit. The holy Spirit which belongs to the Lord. Oh, OK, the holy Spirit which belongs to God.

[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which[/color] is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (I Corinthians 2)

What is the difference between:

(1) The Holy Spirit [a Trinity "person"] WHO is God?
---------------- or ------------------
(2) The holy Spirit [not a "person"] WHICH is OF God?
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Anonymous
Anonymous

September 6th, 2012, 2:17 am #25

Donnie,
You must rather enjoy it, akin to Ken....but why you have to make something so beautiful so complicated?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 6th, 2012, 2:54 am #26

[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. (I Corinthians 2)

I thought that was pretty simple: a Spirit is ALWAYS a that. In the Greek world YOUR spirit is feminine if you are a female but masculine if you are a HE. HIS SPIRIT means the Spirit which belongs to HIM.

1Corinthians 2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by HIS Spirit:
.....for the [His] Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man,
.....save the spirit OF man which is IN him?
.....even so the things OF God knoweth no man,
.....but the Spirit OF God.
1Corinthians 2:12 Now we have received,
.....not the spirit OF the world,
.........but the spirit which is of God;
.........that we might know the things that are freely given to us OF God.
1Corinthians 2:13 Which things also we speak,
.........not in the words which mans wisdom teacheth,
.........but [WORDS] which the Holy Spirit teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God:
.........for they are foolishness unto him:
.........neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Corinthians 2:15 But he that is SPIRITUAL judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
1Corinthians 2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him?
.........But we have the mind OF Christ.

So, you see, the Spirit of God is to God
What our spirit is to US.
But, we now have the MIND of Christ.

If you think that the Spirit OF God is "another people" (they do most certainly) then you MUST believe that your own spirit is another PERSON. No wonder they have a split personality and need some meds.

We have A holy spirit when WE obey and are Baptized INTO Christ: His MIND is OUR mind and we can read BLACK text on BROWN
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on September 6th, 2012, 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2012, 5:03 am #27

Donnie,
You must rather enjoy it, akin to Ken....but why you have to make something so beautiful so complicated?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

"... but why you have to make something so beautiful so complicated"?

I am a simple guy. I'm in the programming/analysis field. (Ken is an engineer.) We're technically-oriented. We simplify what seems complicated to others.

We worship the Father -- not HIS holy Spirit. The holy Spirit OF the Lord BELONGS only to Him. When you think that God's holy Spirit is the "third" [or ANOTHER] person according to the Nicean Trinity Doctrine -- that doesn't compute.

Let me explain it another way or simply. David Fields has a spirit. Dave's spirit is not a person, although it belongs to Dave. Can you imagine folks talking about Dave as a person and his strong-willed spirit as another person?[/color]

Maybe, I should write a book titled: Understanding "the Lord's Holy Spirit" for Dummies.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

September 6th, 2012, 5:13 am #28

Donnie,
That is NOT simple.....you guys are like the democrats....you believe if you say it enough times people will believe you.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 6th, 2012, 5:23 am #29

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

I was so sure your liberal, progressive religious beliefs were the equivalent of the liberal, progressive ideology of the Democrats in Congress, the Senate, the White House, and some of those in the Judicial Branch ... and the Democratic National Convention. "Hope and Change." Keep the change, Dave.

Besides, repetition is key to learning.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 6th, 2012, 3:17 pm #30

Donnie,
That is NOT simple.....you guys are like the democrats....you believe if you say it enough times people will believe you.
Wrong: I am certain that you can QUOTE THE TEXT a million times and those who are not OF TRUTH or OF FAITH will never believed it. Jesus spoke parables to KEEP the Scribes and Pharisees from hearing and believing. He used Isaiah 6, Isaiah 29 and repeated in Ezekiel 33 to name the hypocrites as "pleasure speakers, singers, instrument players, and audience." Music from mystery MEANS "to make the lambs dumb before the slaughter, to "silence the voice of the victim," defined historically as Sacred Violence. If you cannot believe and confess that which is written, don't worry about it.

Isaiah 6:8 Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.
Isaiah 6:9 And he said,
.....Go, and tell this people,
.....Hear ye indeed,
........but understand not;
.....and see ye indeed,
.....but perceive not.
Isaiah 6:10 Make
.....the heart of this people fat,
.....and make their ears heavy,
.....and shut their eyes;
.....lest they see with their eyes,
.....and hear with their ears,
.....and understand with their heart,
.....and convert,
.....and be healed.
Isaiah 6:11 Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered,
.....Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
Isaiah 6:12 And the LORD have removed men far away,
.....and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.
Isaiah 6:13 But yet in it shall be a tenth, and it shall return, and shall be eaten:
.....as a teil tree, and as an oak, whose substance is in them, when they cast their leaves:
.....so the holy seed shall be the substance thereof.

Acts 28:24 And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
Acts 28:25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed,
.....after that Paul had spoken one word,
.....Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
Acts 28:26 Saying,
.....Go unto this people,
.....and say,
.....Hearing ye shall hear,
........and shall not understand;
.....and seeing ye shall see,
........and not perceive:
Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross,
.....and their ears are dull of hearing,
.....and their eyes have they closed;
.....lest they should see with their eyes,
.....and hear with their ears,
.....and understand with their heart,
.....and should be converted, [Be Baptized]
.....and I should heal them. [Receive A holy spirit]
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