Which Day Is the 'Christian' Sabbath: Saturday or Sunday?

Rancor
Rancor

July 22nd, 2017, 2:01 pm #11

Great point! The differences in the days are immense. One is a rest day, the other possible workday.

I noticed in a study of Luke 24, that Jesus arose on the first day of the week. Verse 1.

On that same day,two disciples were on the way to Emmaus. Verse 13.

In verse 30, he took the bread, blessed it, broke it, and offered it to His disciples. Notice the pattern of breaking and eating bread, a pattern often repeated in the Gospels.

THEN, THEIR EYES WERE OPENED. Verse 31.

These verses are prescience to the Lord's Supper as reported in the books of Acts, and instituted earlier in the Gospels.

Jesus had apparently opened their eyes earlier concerning the resurrection gift. Verse 32. Their "hearts were on fire" as he had talked with them earlier on this trip to Emmaus.

RIGHT NOW MEDIA will lead us AWAY from the weekly observance of this Lord's Supper. The Elders want to control what literature the church if reading.


2 Peter 1:20 Context

17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. 19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts: 20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 22nd, 2017, 4:40 pm #12

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Thanks for bringing up the context that "Jesus Christ" received FROM "God the Father" honor and glory and that "God" said about Jesus: "This is my beloved Son."

God "the Father" is not Jesus Christ "the Son OF God" -- that remains as truth and must not be privately interpreted; and that truth is found in numerous passages throughout The Scripture. [I know, I know how you feel about "Scripture" ... but he is just fine. d.c.][/color]
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William
William

July 23rd, 2017, 8:28 am #13

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]William, it appears that a post from you is missing (was inadvertently not submitted or published)? Would you resubmit? Thanks. D.C.[/color]
Early Jewish Christians had an attachment to the Sabbath. Remember that John 19:31 was written somewhat into the “Christian era” and was meant to have meaning to Jewish Christians at that time.
Early Christians went daily house to house. Acts 2:42 ff is clearly in a religious context, although the word “worship” is not used. Is there a place where the word “worship” is used in tandem with the “assembly”? I have not done a study on this, but mostly worship seems to be individual, even when individuals are joining with other individuals for worship. Paul speaks of going up to Jerusalem for worship (Acts 24:11), where he would have joined others. And at his trial “But I confess this to you— that according to the Way which they call a sect, thus I am worshiping the God of my ancestors.” Nothing to do with the “worship service.” I wait to hear someone describe a Biblical worship service.
In fact, in Acts 20, “And on the first day of the week, we having been gathered together to break bread …”, not having been gathered together for "worship." Although many want to see the “Lord’s Supper” in the term “breaking bread,” if I invite you to my house to break bread you would not expect the Lord’s Supper. It is clear from 1 Cor. that the gathering meals included the Lord's Supper, although abused by the Corinthians. Our patternest view says that Christian assemblies had sermons, but I am not sure that Paul’s speech was literally a sermon (the best precedent for Acts 20 is falling asleep during a long sermon).
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Dave
Dave

July 23rd, 2017, 12:56 pm #14

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Thanks for bringing up the context that "Jesus Christ" received FROM "God the Father" honor and glory and that "God" said about Jesus: "This is my beloved Son."

God "the Father" is not Jesus Christ "the Son OF God" -- that remains as truth and must not be privately interpreted; and that truth is found in numerous passages throughout The Scripture. [I know, I know how you feel about "Scripture" ... but he is just fine. d.c.][/color]
Man's logic (Donnie Cruz) states, that since God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is not Jesus Christ, then LOGICALLY SPEAKING...Jesus Chris cannot be God.

That is man's logic and privately falsely interpreted.

Scriptures attest to Jesus being God. John 1 versus 1 through 14 and many many more.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 23rd, 2017, 4:38 pm #15

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]In the Old Testament (KJV online search), the word "sabbath" occurs 111 times; "sabbath day" occurs only 22 (of 111) times; "sabbaths" occurs numerous times (35). This is an indication that there were different types of sabbaths under the old covenant. Facts are that the seventh day was the sabbath day; that God rested on the seventh day from all his work (Gen. 2:2; etc.); that it was a day of complete rest--no work to be done; that it was a day to be kept holy. "Seventh day" is mentioned 50 times in the O.T.

In the New Testament (KJV online search), the word "sabbath" occurs 60 times; "sabbath day" occurs 42 (of 60) times; "sabbaths" occurs zero (0) times. This seems to indicate that in the N.T., "sabbath" was in reference to the "sabbath day" as you will notice in the gospels (the life of Christ in Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and in the Book of Acts (the history of the early church). In the epistles, there is only one reference to the "sabbath days" in Colossians 2:16. Although the sabbath day was supposedly a day of complete rest, did not Christ and the apostles violate the command to observe the sabbath day as a day of rest -- which excludes healing or going to "pluck the ears of corn" or gathering sticks, etc.?

We're not talking about references to "enter[ing] into my rest" in the New Testament.

Is the Roman Catholic Church responsible for changing the Sabbath Day from Saturday to Sunday?

Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church correct in maintaining that the seventh day is still the Sabbath Day?

This may or may not be considered as a trick question: Which day is truthfully the "Christian" sabbath -- Saturday or Sunday? [/color]

_________________________

[color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]Corrected stats in red[/color] [d.c.]
Jesus said that God was SPIRIT without Flesh and Bones.
Jesus said that the was the Son of God made of Flesh and Bones.
God didn't BECOME flesh and bone: His WORD became flesh in the Flesh and Bones MOUTH of Jesus Christ: His lips are "double-edged swords."

Here is a short list of what became flesh in the same sense that God IS LIGHT became flesh.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 23rd, 2017, 6:31 pm #16

Early Jewish Christians had an attachment to the Sabbath. Remember that John 19:31 was written somewhat into the “Christian era” and was meant to have meaning to Jewish Christians at that time.
Early Christians went daily house to house. Acts 2:42 ff is clearly in a religious context, although the word “worship” is not used. Is there a place where the word “worship” is used in tandem with the “assembly”? I have not done a study on this, but mostly worship seems to be individual, even when individuals are joining with other individuals for worship. Paul speaks of going up to Jerusalem for worship (Acts 24:11), where he would have joined others. And at his trial “But I confess this to you— that according to the Way which they call a sect, thus I am worshiping the God of my ancestors.” Nothing to do with the “worship service.” I wait to hear someone describe a Biblical worship service.
In fact, in Acts 20, “And on the first day of the week, we having been gathered together to break bread …”, not having been gathered together for "worship." Although many want to see the “Lord’s Supper” in the term “breaking bread,” if I invite you to my house to break bread you would not expect the Lord’s Supper. It is clear from 1 Cor. that the gathering meals included the Lord's Supper, although abused by the Corinthians. Our patternest view says that Christian assemblies had sermons, but I am not sure that Paul’s speech was literally a sermon (the best precedent for Acts 20 is falling asleep during a long sermon).
but I am not sure that Paul’s speech was literally a sermon (the best precedent for Acts 20 is falling asleep during a long sermon).

I have been faithful to that example!

The "teaching" part of the service consisted mainly in reading a section from the law, with which the reading of a portion from the prophets, and a sermon, or address, were conjoined.

The later rabbis developed a law against "allegorizing." That is, the sermon was simply the explanation of those portions of the Scripture read and was often directed to questions.

"Although the sermon was not an essential part of the synagogue service, the translation and explanation of the Scripture lesson was a step in the direction of a preaching service. There is evidence that an exposition of the lesson formed a part of the Sabbath afternoon service. In earliest times the sermon seems to have been connected with the reading from the Prophets. Anyone able to instruct might be asked to preach (Acts 13:15). The preacher spoke from a sitting position on an elevated place (Luke 4:20). (Feiffer, Charles F., Between the Testaments, p. 63 Baker Book House).


Example: Jesus stood up to READ and then SAT DOWN for any DIALOG.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on July 23rd, 2017, 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 23rd, 2017, 10:53 pm #17

We can validate the universal history of the Bible about music because we have exact dates when various parts were imposed and caused discord. In the same way we can validate the Scriptures outlawing "rhetoric, singing or instruments" by the very way people understood the Word or Logos. We know when and why making sermons was introduced and it was not in Scripture. Certain trained speakers discovered that people would make them rich and famous by telling Bible stories according to their imagination.

The church in Troas did not meet at 9 in the morning: most would work until dark. Jesus needed to let Paul see Him and hear His voice to qualify Him for teaching. Jesus as Spirit promised to appear to Paul when needed. Even so, the emphasis is not on preaching as making up sermons refusing to let Jesus speak but He taught and then DIALOGED:

"DIALEGOMAI primarily denotes to ponder, resolve in one's mind; then, to converse, dispute, discuss, discourse with; most frequently, to reason or dispute with." In Acts 20:7 and 9 "the A.V. (KJV) translates it 'preached,' this the R.V. corrects to 'discoursed,' lit., 'dialogued,' i.e. not by way of a sermon, but by a discourse of a more conversational character." (Vine, p. 319).

"The latter part of the fourth and the first half of the fifth centuries was above all others an age of great preachers in the ancient church...In form it was often highly rhetorical, and the hearers manifested their approval by applause. Yet, while this preacher was probably never excelled, preaching was by no means general, and in many country districts, or even considerable cities, few sermons were to be heard." (Walker, Williston, Hist of Ch. Ch., Charles Scribner's Sons, 1918 p. 167-168)

"The bombastic rhetoric which had ruled in the Roman world since the death of Cicero was now introduced into the Christian pulpit, and the congregation burst forth in applause extravagant enough for a welcome to a chief returning from the conquest of a new province." (John Fletcher Hurst, History of the Christian Church, vol. I., p. 357). "With the victory of Christianity and the development of the service came a soaring of the sermon. Preaching became more frequent, being employed even during the week and during fast seasons in some places daily.

As the Church during that period assimilated more and more Greco-Roman culture, the sermon developed para passu. The most noted Christian preachers had not seldom been educated in the rhetorical schools of the heathen, and employed in their sermons the rule of rhetoric and the artistic effects taught there, and polish became almost an end, often giving more brilliancy than warmth. The hearers came to look for esthetic satisfaction rather than for edification, leaving after the sermon and before the Eucharist." (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Preaching, p. 150, Period 300-450 A. D.). "In the East the sermon was often imaginative, poetic, even bombastic and wordy; in the West the rhetoric was more sober, and the sermon practical, simple, and clear." (The New Schaff-Herzog Religious Encyclopedia, Preaching, p. 150).


There are many homilies written by true Bible Scholars and read in public. Some are still valuable. Most of my early experience was by sober-minded people teaching the Bible fully. Many were topical (now despised) but just as valid.

When we speak of the great apostasy we slip past "the law of giving" neither condoned by the Bible nor most early scholars. As well, we slip by fabricating sermons by using a verse or two while spending all of the time talking about their own experiences or interpreting based on OUR CHANGED CULTURE.

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Scripture
Scripture

July 24th, 2017, 2:36 pm #18

Early Jewish Christians had an attachment to the Sabbath. Remember that John 19:31 was written somewhat into the “Christian era” and was meant to have meaning to Jewish Christians at that time.
Early Christians went daily house to house. Acts 2:42 ff is clearly in a religious context, although the word “worship” is not used. Is there a place where the word “worship” is used in tandem with the “assembly”? I have not done a study on this, but mostly worship seems to be individual, even when individuals are joining with other individuals for worship. Paul speaks of going up to Jerusalem for worship (Acts 24:11), where he would have joined others. And at his trial “But I confess this to you— that according to the Way which they call a sect, thus I am worshiping the God of my ancestors.” Nothing to do with the “worship service.” I wait to hear someone describe a Biblical worship service.
In fact, in Acts 20, “And on the first day of the week, we having been gathered together to break bread …”, not having been gathered together for "worship." Although many want to see the “Lord’s Supper” in the term “breaking bread,” if I invite you to my house to break bread you would not expect the Lord’s Supper. It is clear from 1 Cor. that the gathering meals included the Lord's Supper, although abused by the Corinthians. Our patternest view says that Christian assemblies had sermons, but I am not sure that Paul’s speech was literally a sermon (the best precedent for Acts 20 is falling asleep during a long sermon).
In response to William, it is all too typical for announcements to be made, after which the announcer says "Now let us begin worship."

Then we have a series of worship songs, usually call "praise songs." These songs are generally all directed to(ward) God with little self-improvement and self-edification, and normally the complete absence of conversion songs. The praise team kicks in, and the audience (trapped worshipers) are asked to stand on their feet for three or four songs.

Normally the songs are those derived from about 1980 or later, with the traditional hymns only a small minority of the songs. The traditional hymns found in the humnals do contain a fairly even distribution of conversion, reflection, duty, and other themes than just praise songs. But these themes are considered irrelevant to today's commercial processing of those who come to worship.

I suspect that William worships in such an environment, as do most readers of this thread.

In some churches, when the "worship" is over, there used to be a final song [to end the worship] and then no telling what is going to take place--items that are not classified as worship, but which are either entertaining and secular or whatever.

I would say that Williams thinks the "Now let us begin worship" should not be stated.

Many churches which fit this pattern are in the process of "transitioning," but are not clear about what this means. One church is in the process of lowering its pulpits and installing a flat 5 inch high stage to accommodate what is not quite clear. These changes look like the Jimmy Swaggert stage. Often the Lord's Table is considered a distraction, and it may be placed in the back of the auditorium, so this "sacrament" no longer is the focal point, but the stage antics become the attraction. In some churches the baptistry is placed in the foyer.

Rather than extend the invitation at the end of the sermon, the audience is instructed "if there is any way we can help you, let us know. The shepherds are in the foyer to give counsel." The "sacrament" of baptism is not mentioned.

The Lord's Supper (called Communion by the transition teams) and baptism seem to be an artifacts rather than working agents.

At the same time, the preacher often says that all the accomplishments of the church members have not been achieved by them, but by the "Holy Spirit" who opens doors and gives growth. The congregation is also informed that the Lord's Supper is not to be a solemn feast of introspection, but an opportunity to TALK to the person next to you all about the preceding week and about the Lord's and Holy Spirit operation. In some churches, members are asked to take a stone at the start of the worship period, and during the Lord's Supper to bring it forward and place it near the Lord's Table. This is to indicate that the "stone" (hindrance) in the worshiper's life is to be removed during this Supper. These comments may be given by a preacher in his 20s who says he knows more about 1 Corinthians 11 and 12 than all the people who have studied these passages for half a century.


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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 24th, 2017, 2:53 pm #19

Jesus said that God was SPIRIT without Flesh and Bones.
Jesus said that the was the Son of God made of Flesh and Bones.
God didn't BECOME flesh and bone: His WORD became flesh in the Flesh and Bones MOUTH of Jesus Christ: His lips are "double-edged swords."

Here is a short list of what became flesh in the same sense that God IS LIGHT became flesh.

The "messianic Jews" are still Jews but are center stage at LU and a few EX churches of Christ. They boast that God gave them the property of others when Scripture and everyone's understanding is that God's RIGHTEOUSNESS would have destroyed them all because they were Purpose Driven to violate God's Commands and Rose Up to challenge God with PLAY.

When they Rose Up against God and demanded a king like the nations (Gentiles) He gave them kings in His anger to carry out the captivity and death penalty. Most early writers understand that and left a record. Calling itself the Church of God or the Church of Christ defining canonc c 341. The "sabbath" was kept with the godly people limited to a very short walk so they COULD NOT attend the usual SATURN or SUN worship. Hislop says that Satan was STUR or 666.

After Constantine allowed the First Day as another REST day, Christians were instructed not to attend the usual SEVENTH DAY revels:

In the Apostolic Constitutions:
XXXIII. I Peter and Paul do make the following constitutions.
.....Let the SLAVES work five days;
.....but on the Sabbath-day and the Lord's day
.....let THEM have leisure to go to church
.....for instruction in piety.

We have said that the Sabbath
.....is on account of the creation,
.....and the Lord's day of the resurrection.

Chapter XXI.-Sabbaths Were Instituted on Account of the People's Sins, and Not for a Work of Righteousness.

"Moreover, that God enjoined you to keep the Sabbath,
.....and IMPOSE on you other precepts for a sign, as I have already said,
.....on account of your unrighteousness,
.....and that of your fathers,-as He declares that for the sake of the nations,
lest His name be profaned among them, therefore He permitted some of you to remain alive,-
.....these words of His can prove to you: they are narrated by Ezekiel thus:
`I am the Lord your God; walk in My statutes, and keep My judgments,
.....and take no part in the customs of Egypt; and hallow My Sabbaths;
.....and they shall be a sign between Me and you,
.....that ye may know that I am the Lord your God.


Notwithstanding ye rebelled against Me,
.....and your children walked not in My statutes,
.....neither kept My judgments to do them:
.....which if a man do, he shall live in them. But they polluted My Sabbaths.
And I said that I would pour out My fury upon them in the wilderness, to accomplish My anger upon them;
.....yet I did it not; that My name might not be altogether profaned in the sight of the heathen.

I led them out before their eyes, and I lifted up Mine hand unto them in the wilderness,
.....that I would scatter them among the heathen, and disperse them through the countries;
.....because they had not executed My judgments, but had despised My statutes, and polluted My Sabbaths,
.....and their eyes were after the devices of their fathers.

Wherefore I gave them also statutes which were not good, and judgments whereby they shall not live.
.....And I shall pollute them in their own gifts,
.....that I may destroy all that openeth the womb, when I pass through them.' (Ezek. xx. 19-26.)

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on July 24th, 2017, 3:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

July 25th, 2017, 4:33 pm #20

Man's logic (Donnie Cruz) states, that since God, the Father of Jesus Christ, is not Jesus Christ, then LOGICALLY SPEAKING...Jesus Chris cannot be God.

That is man's logic and privately falsely interpreted.

Scriptures attest to Jesus being God. John 1 versus 1 through 14 and many many more.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]God said about Jesus: "This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased." Rancor accurately quoted the scripture from II Peter 1:17.

There are countless references in Scripture to support the free truth that Jesus is the Son of God (some 50 times), as well as the Son of man (89 times in the N.T.). [You will not find either expression in the O.T. and can never be in reference to God, since Jesus was born only 2 millennia ago.

Jesus addressed his Father as "my God"; and Jesus is now at the right hand of God.

Dave's logic (that Jesus is co-God) is his logic, and his every attempt to supersede and complicate God's simple truth will never work.[/color]
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