Where Is The Pattern For Grape Juice In The New Testament?

Where Is The Pattern For Grape Juice In The New Testament?

Sonny
Sonny

May 9th, 2012, 5:12 am #1

Since Churches Of Christ follow the New Testament Pattern, where does it authorize grape juice for communion? In other words, would wine not be the exact pattern and grape juice only close to the pattern?

Grace and Peace.

-Sonny
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 9th, 2012, 9:17 am #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Based on how the question was phrased, there is no pattern for grape juice "in the New Testament." Grape juice is a substance. Wine is a substance. It is fair to say that neither is there a pattern for wine "in the New Testament." Perhaps, the container of either grape juice or wine is "the pattern"?

Seriously, I believe the more appropriate question would be: "What Is the New Testament Pattern for the Observance of the Lord's Supper"? The elements to "eat" and "drink" may be discussed then.[/color]
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B
B

May 9th, 2012, 1:54 pm #3

Since Churches Of Christ follow the New Testament Pattern, where does it authorize grape juice for communion? In other words, would wine not be the exact pattern and grape juice only close to the pattern?

Grace and Peace.

-Sonny
Does the New Testament explicitly command "wine" for Communion? What does the Greek text say about Matt. 26:29, Mark 14:25, and Luke 22:18? Does it say "cup of wine" or "fruit of the vine"? Does it say "fermented beverage" or "fruit of the vine"?

In those verses, the Greek text says gennema (offspring, produce, fruit) and ampelos (a vine) -- hence, FRUIT OF THE VINE.

In those verses, does the word oinos (wine) or something similar appear in the Greek text? NO.

Does "fruit of the vine" always imply a fermented beverage? NO.

Are not wine and grape juice both classified as "fruit of the vine"? Let's put it this way: wine can be made from grapes, and crushed grapes yield plain juice. So, wine and plain grape juice are both "fruit of the vine."

The bottom line: since the New Testament accurately says "fruit of the vine" and does NOT explicitly limit the beverage to "wine," then either wine OR grape juice can be used for Communion.
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 9th, 2012, 4:49 pm #4

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Based on how the question was phrased, there is no pattern for grape juice "in the New Testament." Grape juice is a substance. Wine is a substance. It is fair to say that neither is there a pattern for wine "in the New Testament." Perhaps, the container of either grape juice or wine is "the pattern"?

Seriously, I believe the more appropriate question would be: "What Is the New Testament Pattern for the Observance of the Lord's Supper"? The elements to "eat" and "drink" may be discussed then.[/color]
Based on that logic, a case can be made for using the juice of any one of a number of melons that grow on vines, not that I'm seriously proposing for a minute that we do. WE know for certain that what Jesus and the disciples drank at the Last Supper was the "blood of the grape"; it was probably fermented, as wine was an integral part of the Passover meal.
As for the container, the only legitimate objection I have to the one-cup doctrine is based strictly on sanitation. Who wants to sip from the same cup as someone who has had a dip in their mouth? Yuck. But it is a legitimate objection and it does need to be honored as there is no explicit command one way or the other.
Others have no problem with the one-cup doctrine. Fine, go fellowship with those who are like-minded and God bless you for it. As for me and my house, we'll honor the memory of Jesus and mind our health at the same time.
As for grape juice vs. wine, the use of grape juice has been a long-standing concession to those who object to the use of alcohol in any form. That is as it should be, as by doing so, we don't cause anyone to violate their conscience.
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B
B

May 10th, 2012, 3:17 pm #5

Whenever the Bible uses the term "vine," the fruit that is mentioned in association with it is the grape. There is no mention of mellons or other fruits with respect to vines.

Was the beverage at the Passover (Old Covenant) fermented? Perhaps. But since Jesus used the phrase "fruit of the vine" instead of "wine," then He granted a bit of flexibility with the Lord's Supper (New Covenant): either grape wine OR grape juice is permitted for the Lord's Supper.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 10th, 2012, 6:18 pm #6

Does the New Testament explicitly command "wine" for Communion? What does the Greek text say about Matt. 26:29, Mark 14:25, and Luke 22:18? Does it say "cup of wine" or "fruit of the vine"? Does it say "fermented beverage" or "fruit of the vine"?

In those verses, the Greek text says gennema (offspring, produce, fruit) and ampelos (a vine) -- hence, FRUIT OF THE VINE.

In those verses, does the word oinos (wine) or something similar appear in the Greek text? NO.

Does "fruit of the vine" always imply a fermented beverage? NO.

Are not wine and grape juice both classified as "fruit of the vine"? Let's put it this way: wine can be made from grapes, and crushed grapes yield plain juice. So, wine and plain grape juice are both "fruit of the vine."

The bottom line: since the New Testament accurately says "fruit of the vine" and does NOT explicitly limit the beverage to "wine," then either wine OR grape juice can be used for Communion.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on May 16th, 2012, 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 10th, 2012, 8:52 pm #7

Raise your hand and wait till your called on, Ken.
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Sonny
Sonny

May 11th, 2012, 4:26 am #8

Does the New Testament explicitly command "wine" for Communion? What does the Greek text say about Matt. 26:29, Mark 14:25, and Luke 22:18? Does it say "cup of wine" or "fruit of the vine"? Does it say "fermented beverage" or "fruit of the vine"?

In those verses, the Greek text says gennema (offspring, produce, fruit) and ampelos (a vine) -- hence, FRUIT OF THE VINE.

In those verses, does the word oinos (wine) or something similar appear in the Greek text? NO.

Does "fruit of the vine" always imply a fermented beverage? NO.

Are not wine and grape juice both classified as "fruit of the vine"? Let's put it this way: wine can be made from grapes, and crushed grapes yield plain juice. So, wine and plain grape juice are both "fruit of the vine."

The bottom line: since the New Testament accurately says "fruit of the vine" and does NOT explicitly limit the beverage to "wine," then either wine OR grape juice can be used for Communion.
Brother B,

Thank you for this explanation. I have learned and benefited from reading. I had never questioned until reading the other forum on patterns and had this specific question. You have answered satisfactorily.

-Sonny
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 11th, 2012, 6:58 pm #9

The fruit of the cob can only be corn: I eat my corn OFF the cob even if others drink their "Corn."

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Anonymous
Anonymous

May 11th, 2012, 10:36 pm #10

Ken, I thought friends and foes called you "Wiskeyneggs" in your younger days?
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