Where Is The Pattern For Grape Juice In The New Testament?

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 14th, 2012, 8:50 am #11

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ken,

I like the expression that the fruit of the vine is what the GRAPE VINE produces, but that wine is the fruit of the vat or tub.

Why complicate matters when grape juice is available? I doubt that it would make young partakers of the Lord's Supper drunk.

(Now, let's leave the Roman Catholic Church's Eucharist sacrament alone. It teaches transubstantiation -- real body and real blood of Christ or that "Jesus Christ is truly present under the 'bread and wine.'" We know that the RCC will continue to evolve into further paganism and ritualism. Whether or not everyone (RCC member) partakes of the "real blood" or that only the priest drinks the real blood in front of the parishioners and afterward consumes the rest of the real-blood-turned-into-that-intoxicating-wine in privacy -- that's the Catholic prerogative.

But then in terms of COMMEMORATING THE LORD'S DEATH, how much less of a New Testament pattern for the Lord's Supper is the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation from that of a church that teaches that the nature of the observance actually includes a "fellowship meal" of BBQ pork chops and chips and soft[?] drinks?)

(1) At the time of the Passover, there is no doubt that the bread used was unleavened.

(2) Would you like to think that what represents the blood of Christ is an intoxicant in: "This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me"?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 15th, 2012, 3:08 am #12

I am a bit slow this week: I found out that this does not apply to me:

Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone..

So, I dasheth my head against a sharp concrete step and went to get a 2.5 inch tear down to the bone over my right eye. So, I nursed a black eye while the daughters took us out for Mexican, then Sunday we celebrated wife's 78th, Mother's day and out 55th anniversary.

AL MAXEY AND ALL OF THE TEXT DODGERS INSISTS.

Because, says Al, JESUS INNOVATED and followed the BABYLONIAN PSEUDO PASSOVER; that means that we can ADD instruments of music which does not NEGATE the command to "speak that which is written with one mind and one mouth"

Al Maxey: ere is an interpretive precept circulating among certain elements within Christendom (and largely among conservative brethren of the American Restoration Movement) that suggests biblical silence is to be regarded as prohibitive in nature.

This is a somewhat radical, and at times fanatical, hermeneutical persuasion that if God said nothing about some doctrine or practice (neither pro nor con) then that doctrine or practice is ipso facto forever excluded, and to go against this so-called "Law of Silence" is to SIN against God and risk one's very salvation

The problem, however, is that the case of the four cups of wine completely destroys their premise. Jesus, who was sinless, embraced and utilized the four cups of wine which were added by men to the Lord God's Passover feast.

Jesus thus demonstrated that innovation and addition are not necessarily wrong, if that to which they are added is not negated or replaced or diminished by the addition or accompaniment.
In other words, the four cups of wine in no way negated,
replaced
or diminished what God HAD prescribed and ordained in the Passover.


Because JESUS INNOVATED and followed the BABYLONIAN PSEUDO PASSOVER; that means that we can ADD instruments of music which does not NEGATE the command to "speak that which is written with one mind and one mouth"

For example, there is no direct reference in the New Testament documents to instruments of music aiding or accompanying singing in a corporate worship setting. Therefore, according to this so-called "Law of Silence," the use of instruments is a potentially soul-damning abomination in the sight of God.

We would say that a Disciple DOES NOT use an interpretive principle:
that would deny that Jesus delivered all that pertains to life and
godliness.  It is JUST a matter of being a TRUE DISCIPLE willing
to read BLACK text on BROWN PAPER.

SOME BIBLICAL FACTS.

The Feast of Unleavened bread was held along with Passover Jesus and the faithful celebrated of the Biblical Passover which never used wine:

Exodus 12:8 And they shall eat the flesh in that night, roast with fire, and unleavened bread; and with bitter herbs they shall eat it.

Al Maxey would say that this command is SILENT about using milk and honey then HE has the authority to add milk and honey or fish to ACCOMPANY God's direct command.

In preparation for the Passover (a family affair) they searched the house for any leaven or product of leaven. It's a fact that those who want to associate the pure blood of the Real Lamb with fermented "fruit of the vine" slander Jesus by accusing him of being contaminated with sin:

Leviticus 6:17 It shall not be baken with leaven. I have given it unto them for their portion of my offerings made by fire; it is most holy, as is the sin offering, and as the trespass offering.

No one DRANK the "drink offering"

2Timothy 4:6NIV For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure.

4689 spénd properly, to make a libation (drink-offering). A libation (a liquid offering) is poured out to symbolize total surrender (even unto death). 4689 (spénd) means "to pour out as a drink-offering, make a libation; figuratively, 'I am poured out or offered as a libation' (in the shedding of my life-blood), Phil 2:17" (Abbott-Smith); that is, the " 'outpouring' of one's life blood in service and suffering" (Souter).


The law forbade seor--yeast, ferment, whatever could excite fermentation--and

khahmatz (chametz), whatever had undergone fermentation, or been subject to the action of seor." (Patton 85).

"The great mass of the Jews have ever understood this prohibition as extending to fermented wine, or strong drink, as well as to bread. The word is essentially the same which designates the fermentation of bread and that of liquors." (Patton)






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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 16th, 2012, 10:17 am #13

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ken

"Me too" -- I am slow this...: I found out that I misapplied the passages that make reference to "running the race with patience":[/color]
[color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And that which fell among thorns are they, which, when they have heard, go forth, and are choked with cares and riches and pleasures of this life, and bring no fruit to perfection. But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (Luke 8:14-15, KJV)

But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. (Romans 8:25, KJV)

Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us.... (Hebrews 12:1, KJV) [/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Here's my version of what happened to me last week [and several days thereafter]:[/color]
[color=#000000" size="3" face="times]
And the grand coach in the neighborhood, in the stead of that he worketh out in the Sports complex, he driveth and arriveth home from his daily labor, and the kids patiently awaiteth his arrival.

And immediately they gather together [the one that waxeth old and the youth]. And the old dareth the young: let us all race with all our might. We all start; <i>everyone hath a chance to win the race on grass
.

But the leader, before a great cloud of witnesses, dasheth his right foot against the holey ground and heareth and feeleth the break at the end of the fibula of the ankle, much worse than if he twisteth his ankle.

And the leader goeth to Urgent Care and cometh home with a splint: he either walketh on crutches or crawleth. And the orthopedist deviseth the medical boot for the ankle.</i>[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]OK, that's the latest news from me.

Next time I would like to discuss what Ken brought up ... concerning one prominent change agent in the brotherhood: Al Maxey -- his take on "man-made" traditions, his article titled: "The 'Law of Silence' and the Four Cups of Wine."[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 17th, 2012, 12:10 am #14

Since Churches Of Christ follow the New Testament Pattern, where does it authorize grape juice for communion? In other words, would wine not be the exact pattern and grape juice only close to the pattern?

Grace and Peace.

-Sonny
Al Maxey: Another innovation was the addition of drink to this Passover feast as part of the religious ritual. Four cups of wine had been added by the rabbis to the Passover celebration. These were not just for the purpose of "washing down the food," a mere "incidental," as a few have feebly sought to suggest,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
but these cups of wine were specially and purposefully added
..... for their spiritual significance to the feast itself.
The Jews themselves admit that these cups of wine were "a Rabbinic tradition,"
with a specific religious purpose, and thus were not originally part of the divine directive,
nor were they merely "incidental to the Passover itself."


The Rabbinic traditions were NOT authorized and were usurping the authority of God.

"By New Testament times the Passover observance had features ADDED to those already SPECIFIED in the Old Testament .... At various intervals four cups of wine, a symbol of joy, were consumed" (International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, volume 3, page 677).

THE JEWS WERE IN BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY AS A RESULT OF MUSICAL IDOLATRY AT MOUNT SINAI WHERE THEY REPUDIATED THE MEANING OF GOD'S DEFINITION OF THE FESTIVAL.

Int Standard Encyclopedia Vol 4, p. 2256: The Passover was the annual Hebrew festival on the evening of the 14th day of the month of 'Abhibh (Abib) or Nisan, as it was called in later times. It was followed by, and closely connected with, a 7 days' festival of matstsoth, or unleavened bread, to which the name Passover was also applied by extension (Leviticus 23:5).

BUT NOT IN FACT: the Feast of Unleavened bread began the next day but continued for 7 days.

Leviticus 23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORDs passover.
Leviticus 23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.

THE SCRIBES AND PHARISEES (preachers, singers, instrument players Ezek 33) WERE the LEAVEN which should be cast out: drinking wine to drunkeness was the Babylonian addition to the Word of God and is always repudiated:

Matthew 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them,
.....Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Matthew 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread,
.....that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?

Both were distinctly connected with the Exodus, which, according to tradition, they commemorate; the Passover being in imitation of the last meal in Egypt, eaten in preparation for the journey, while Yahweh, passing over the houses of the Hebrews, was slaying the firstborn of Egypt (Exodus 12:12 f; Exodus 13:2,12 ff); the matstsoth festival being in memory of the first days of the journey during which this bread of haste was eaten (Exodus 12:14-20).

Hallel; request that the service be accepted.
.....Thereafter folk-songs are sung to traditional melodies,
.....and poems recited, many of which have allegorical meanings.
.....A cup of wine is used at the sanctification and another at grace,
.....in addition to which two other cups have been added,
.....the 4 according to the Mishna (Pecachim x.1)
.....symbolizing the 4 words employed in Exodus 6:6-7 for the delivery of Israel from Egypt.
Instead of eating in haste, as in the Egyptian Passover,
.....it is customary to recline or lean at this meal in token of Israel's freedom.


Exodus 6:6 Wherefore say unto the children of Israel, I am the LORD, and I will bring you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians, and I will rid you out of their bondage, and I will redeem you with a stretched out arm, and with great judgments:

Exodus 6:7 And I will take you to me for a people, and I will be to you a God: and ye shall know that I am the LORD your God, which bringeth you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Of course, almost all of the Israelites had REPUDIATED the original Passover by falling back into the Egyptian form of idolatry of the trinity. These people were so abandoned that Jesus refused to teach them the gospel.

Neither Jesus nor any Godly Jew observed the Babylonian REPLACEMENT for the Passover. There was no FOUR CUPS OF WINE: there was NO wine. It is slander to the character of Jesus to assume that He would follow "the traditions of the elders or that He would be forced by "culture" to violate the direct command for the Passover. After all, the Lord's Supper as He ordained it would be to show forth or preach the death of Jesus Christ as the true Passover and NOT the Passover connected ONLY to the death of the Egyptian first born sons.

"To add insult to injury, Achashverosh invited the Jews to the feast as well. He told them: "Torah is proven false, so give up your hope and join us." Unfortunately, many Jews succumbed to this challenge of faith and attended the party

6 The third day of Esther's fast was the 15th of Nissan -- the night of the Passover Seder (Rashi 5:1). Because of the dire situation,

.....the regular Seder could be forfeited.
.....Still, Esther kept as much as she could and served matzah at the banquets.
.....Additionally, the banquets are called "mishteh ha-yayin" --
.....a wine feast (5:6, 7:2, 7:7) -- alluding to the four cups of wine drunk at the seder


The Bible Calls them BANQUETS OF WINE. The king drank the wine, flew into a rage, and went looking for HAMAN. Haman just fell on the queen's bed. So the king had Haman hanged on the gallows made for Mordecai. Al, don't you get the JUDAS connection?

Esther 5:6 And the king said unto Esther at the banquet of wine, What is thy petition? and it shall be granted thee: and what is thy request? even to the half of the kingdom it shall be performed.

Amos speaks of people BACK in slavery to the unlawful and ungodly Civil-Military-Clergy complex. Instead of teaching THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN the followed Al Maxey and added singers and instrument players right inside of their temple.

vinum ,
Amos 2.. [11] I raised up some of your sons for prophets, And some of your young men for Nazirites. Isn't this true, You children of Israel?" says Yahweh. [12] "But you gave the Nazirites wine to drink, And commanded the prophets, saying, 'Don't prophesy!' [13] Behold, I will crush you in your place, As a cart crushes that is full of grain.
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Last edited by Ken.Sublett on May 17th, 2012, 12:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 17th, 2012, 5:51 pm #15

Since Churches Of Christ follow the New Testament Pattern, where does it authorize grape juice for communion? In other words, would wine not be the exact pattern and grape juice only close to the pattern?

Grace and Peace.

-Sonny
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 17th, 2012, 6:56 pm #16

Since Churches Of Christ follow the New Testament Pattern, where does it authorize grape juice for communion? In other words, would wine not be the exact pattern and grape juice only close to the pattern?

Grace and Peace.

-Sonny
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

May 17th, 2012, 11:19 pm #17

...which completely misses the point. Jesus participated in the Passover as it was celebrated in His day. Did He sin by doing so, yes or no?
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B
B

May 18th, 2012, 12:38 am #18

Would Christians actually think Jesus was capable of sin?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 18th, 2012, 12:50 am #19

...which completely misses the point. Jesus participated in the Passover as it was celebrated in His day. Did He sin by doing so, yes or no?
Jesus observed the Biblical Passover which was KILLED and ROASTED and had NO connection to wine. All of the products of fermentation must be removed from the house.

The Jewish Passover was conspired during or following the Babylonian Captivity where they ADDED four cups of wine with no authority. Jesus DID NOT participate but REPUDIATED all of the Babylonian practices of the Jews.

Jesus instituted the Lord's Supper AFTER Passover which was on the first day: the feast of unleavened bread continued for 7 days.

The Babylonian (Jewish, pagan) pseudo Passover demanded four cups of INTOXICATING wine for each participation. Nothing could be more Judgmental than Jesus taking ONE CUP of Preserved Juice and dividing among ALL of the apostles. This cup was THE FRUIT OF THE VINE. God is NOT as ignorant as people want to make him. This was confessed to be "eat, drink and make merry" celebrating while in their self-produced exile.

In promoting singing WITH instrumental accompaniment your mentors are strongly deluded and cannot read the Word but must blaspheme by trying to cut Jesus down to their size. The end time Babylon Mother of Harlots produces the lusted after FRUITS (not of the fine) and USES them as false preachers, singers and instrument players: John calls them SORCERERS and said that they will be cast alive into the LAKE OF FIRE. That is why such people DENY the clear statements which connects the three forms of musical instruments with God driving His enemies into hell.

Revelation 16:19 And the great city [Jerusalem] was divided into three parts,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
and the cities of the nations fell:
.....and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
.....to give unto her the cup of the WINE of the fierceness of his wrath.
Revelation 17:4 And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour,
.....and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls,
.....having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:
Revelation 18:6 Reward her even as she rewarded you,
.....and double unto her double according to her works:
.....in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.


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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

May 18th, 2012, 12:55 am #20

Would Christians actually think Jesus was capable of sin?
No, but pseudo-christians gladly implicate Jesus and the apostles with what is universally condemned throughout the Bible. They disqualify Him as King or prince and high priests.

Proverbs 31:4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink:
Proverbs 31:5 Lest they drink, and forget the law, and pervert the judgment of any of the afflicted.
Proverbs 31:6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and wine unto those that be of heavy hearts.
Proverbs 31:7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his misery no more.
Proverbs 31:8 Open thy mouth for the dumb in the cause of all such as are appointed to destruction.
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