Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 3rd, 2008, 8:29 pm #11

Refuting: The Use of Musical Instruments (Psalm 150) in N.T. Assembly

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Stanley:

There are numerous references that would refute your belief that “musical instruments” were not part of or associated with the Old Law. Here’s one of many:
  • <font color=red size=4>“… and Other Uses of the Trumpets --</font>

    Numbers 10:10—“Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I am the LORD your God.”
Wouldn’t it be a form of disobedience in the assembly of New Testament saints not to use musical instruments with burnt offerings and sacrifices?</font>
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

May 5th, 2008, 8:24 pm #12

<font face=arial>Dear Friends in Christ:

Worship or Praise Teams are part and parcel of the change agenda. In today's lesson I share some interesting information about their origin. This information will help us understand those who want such things and where the idea originated. In dealing with this matter as with all others we must exercise discretion. We must uphold that which is good, oppose that which is evil and be tolerant of that which is in the real of opinion. If you find this lesson helpful, please forward it to Christians in your email directory. Feel free to make copies to share with others. Remember that the only church God will bless is the church that is submissive to and obedient to his will.

— John Waddey</font>

___________________________________
    • <font size=5>
      WHENCE CAME THE WORSHIP TEAM?
      </font>


      <font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>In churches committed to the change agenda, you will usually find a "worship team." Our wandering brethren sometimes called these "praise teams." Perhaps you, like me, have wondered, where did such ideas originate? In reading the book, Pagan Christianity, by Frank Viola and George Barna, I found the following information regarding the origins of the worship team. He opens his discussion by noting:
      • "In many contemporary churches...the choir has been replaced by the worship team" (p. 164).
      • He continues, "The standard worship team includes an amplified guitar, drums, keyboard, possibly a bass guitar and some special vocalists" (Ibid).
      • "Word are usually projected onto a screen... There are rarely songbooks or hymnals" (Ibid).
      • "The worship team will ...lead a lively, hand-clapping, body-swaying, hand-raising, (sometimes dancing) congregation... Typically the focus of the songs is on individual spiritual experience. First person singular pronouns –I, me, my–dominate a good number of the songs" (p. 164-165).
      • "The revolution (in Christian music) came when rock and roll was adapted into Christian music with the coming of the Jesus movement. This reform set the stage for the revolutionary musical changes to take root in the Christian church..." (Ibid).
      • "The origin of the worship team goes back to the founding of Calvary Chapel in 1965. Chuck Smith, the founder of the denomination, started a ministry for hippies and surfers. Smith welcomed the newly converted hippies to re-tune their guitars and play their now redeemed music in church" (Ibid).
      • "Since the advent of contemporary Christian music, the `worship wars' have begun constituting a divisive force that has balkanized the Christian church into `old styled-traditional-music' lovers vs. `new-styled-contemporary' music lovers. Not a few churches have been splintered right down the middle over what form of music is to be used during the church service" (Ibid. ft. note)
      • "The Vineyard (a contemporary charismatic denomination)....followed suit with the worship team.... Since that time, the Vineyard has probably had more influence on establishing worship teams and worship music..."
      • "In due time the guitar replaced the organ as the central instrument that led worship in the Protestant church. Although patterned after the rock concert of secular culture, the worship team has become as common as the pulpit" (p. 166).
      We recognize that not all congregations that have introduced praise teams have the instrumental band. Some however do. You should understand that those preachers and elders who have introduced worship teams into their worship did not discover them "after a long and prayerful study of the Bible." They have borrowed them from various denominational sources, hoping to have the same kind of enthusiasm and growth they have observed in their mega churches. The wish to have something new and different preceded the implementation of worship teams and other new aspects of the progressive churches. Concern about the scripturalness of such things or the harm they might cause the church are of little concern.

      We understand that the problem is not in having a committee or group of brethren to plan the worship service, nor is it in having more than one song leader before the congregation. The problem arises when such innovations are used as wedges to open the door for the use of instruments of music in worship (Eph. 5:19), to put Christian women in leadership roles in the worship (I Tim. 2:11-12), or other changes that do violate the sacred standard of Scripture (II John 9-11). The danger is seen when confusion and division occur (Rom. 16:18). By then the damage is done and the church has suffered great harm. Think of it this way. Say for 10 years you had taken the same medicine for your high blood pressure and it had worked fine. You go to a new young doctor and he insists that you need to change to a new kind of medicine. Against your better judgment, you take the medicine and become desperately ill. Thankfully you survive, although some did not. The young doctor was sure his prescription for a new medication would work wonders. In fact your old medicine was fully adequate for your needs. The new was a near disaster. So it is proving to be where the change agents insist on implementing their agenda in congregations that had done well prior to their coming.</font>

      ___________________________________

      **Pagan Christianity is a 2008 publication of Tyndale House Pub. Inc.
___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]


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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

May 5th, 2008, 9:08 pm #13

SingING and makING are both done in the PLACE of the heart or spirit. Paul made melody in Ephesians 5 means GRACE in Colossians 3 to make sure that you did not try to make PSALLO ever mean music.

<font color=blue>The man who was dying blessed me; I made the widow's heart sing. Jb.29:13

So my heart laments for Moab like a flute;
it laments like a flute for the men of Kir Hareseth. The wealth they acquired is gone. Je.48:36

My heart laments for Moab like a harp,
my inmost being for Kir Hareseth. Is.16:11</font>

<font color=blue>And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.Lu.1:47</font>

Internal <font color=blue>Therefore did my heart rejoice, </font>
External <font color=blue>and my tongue was glad;
moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Ac.2:26</font>

Internal <font color=blue>In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, </font>
External <font color=blue>and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight. Lu.10:21</font>

There is NO connection between psallo (melody) and music. Because psallo is PRIMARILY a shooting with an arrow to hit the literal heart, and because "hymns" impact the heart or feelings, "shooting out hymns" was a metaphor and you "twang" the heart strings.

<font color=blue>The bowstring touch'd her breast, so strong she drew;
Whizzing in air the fatal arrow flew.
At once the twanging bow and sounding dart
The traitor heard, and felt the point within his heart.

Thy scarlet-tinctured foot? or from my bow
The lyre of Phoebus [Apollo, Apollyon] to thy notes attuned
Will not protect thee; farther stretch thy wings;

Go, wanton, skim along the Delian lake,
Or wilt thou steep thy melody in blood.

Look, what strange bird comes onwards; wouldst thou fix
Beneath the battlements thy straw-built nest?

My singing bow shall drive thee hence; begone,
Or to the banks of Alpheus, gulfy stream, grace
Or to the Isthmian grove; there hatch thy young;

Plautus, Curculio CAPPADOX
My spleen is killing me, my reins are in torment,
my lungs are being torn asunder, my liver is being tortured,
my heart-strings are giving way, all my intestines are in pain.

Hecuba Alas! a dreadful trial is near, it seems, [230] full of mourning, rich in tears. Yes, I too escaped death where death had been my due, and Zeus did not destroy me but is still preserving my life, that I may witness in my misery fresh sorrows surpassing all before.
But if the bond may ask the free of things that do not GRIEVE them
or WRENCH their heart-strings,
you ought to speak in answer to my questions and I ought to hear what you have to say.</font>

If that doesn't work we might as WHY you want to use instruments meaning "a machine for doing hard work" when Jesus promises to be with the small groups so that we can come "learn of HIM" only when we teach "that which has been taught." Maybe the next time you try to listen to your wife explain something to you WE will just organize a Rock Band to show her just how much respect you have for her.
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Lisa Busby
Lisa Busby

May 5th, 2008, 11:42 pm #14

First-century Christians utilized whatever "modern" conveniences they had for their time, such as transportation by ship, cart, wagon, camel, or other beast of burden. Their "air conditioners" consisted of hand-held fans, if that at all. The word "modern" applies to whatever era one is discussing, whether that era is the first century or the 21st century. To imply that "back-to-the-Bible" means that it is sinful for us in the 21st century to utilize whatever "modern" conveniences we have for our time is to miss the concept of what "back-to-the-Bible" means. That phrase implies nothing about physical accouterments associated with any particular era of time. That phrase means to follow the timeless teachings and principles of doctrines and commands as set forth in the New Testament.

Hand-held fans in the first century did not violate Christ's teachings. Riding a camel to assembly on the first day of the week in the first century did not violate Christ's teachings. Electric-driven air conditioners today do not violate Christ's teachings. Riding in a car to church on Sunday does not violate Christ's teachings. Neither do rest rooms, kitchens, church buildings, or a host of other incidentals violate any of Christ's teachings, for there is no New Testament doctrine about them.

Of course, many people who get on the "anti-incidentals" kick do so to argue for instrumental music in Christian worship. Their premise is, "God doesn't 'authorize' kitchens and air conditioners, yet we have them; so we should have instrumental music, even though God doesn't 'authorize' it.'" Such a premise mixes apples with oranges. We do have freedom to implement what God has not condemned, as long as what we implement does not violate God's existing doctrines and commands. To add instrumental music is to add to the vocal music or singing that God has already commanded for Christian worship (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16). To add instruments is to add to the accompaniment that God has authorized to enhance the singing, and that authorized accompaniment/enhancement is making melody in the heart (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16).

For those who fixate on the physical aspects of "back-to-the-Bible," just remember that first-century Christians did not utilize instrumental music in worship, neither did they utilize "praise teams," rock bands, and dramatic productions in their worship.

Lastly, those who condemn Sunday school or mid-week prayer meetings as "unscriptural" would hinder those who wish to read and study God's Word in a Christian environment. There is the command to observe the memorial to Christ's death, burial, and resurrection in the Lord's Supper (1 Cor. 11:20-29), and there is the example of the first-century Christians doing so on the first day of the week (Acts 20:7). There is no command against groups of Christians meeting together informally to study God's Word as in Sunday school or in prayer meetings.

Is studying God's Word to be limited only to Sunday? Paul states, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Tim. 2:15 KJV).


Is praying together to be limited only to Sunday? Paul states, "Pray without ceasing" (1 Thess. 5:17 KJV)

I find it very interesting how some members can take scripture and twist it to go along with what they are saying, but condemn someone else when they do the same. I have spent my whole life in the church, and have seen supposed "christians" use scripture to disprove everything from kitchens, to music. I have seen the verse "have you not homes to eat and drink in" used in heated discussions about kitchens in the church building. When Christ made that statement he was speaking of the Lord's supper, and yet, MAN has twisted that scripture for HIS OWN PURPOSE to say we should not have fellowship halls and eat in the church building. Do you think that is what Christ "authorized" that scripture for? Nobody is saying we shouldn't have Sunday school classes. I think they are very beneficial. The point I was making, and that was missed was we are so fanatical about doing everything in the right order that we forget why we are at chuch to begin with. Let's stop the infighting, and start resisiting the devil so that we can bring more people to Christ.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 9th, 2008, 10:11 pm #15

<font face=arial>Dear Friends in Christ:

Worship or Praise Teams are part and parcel of the change agenda. In today's lesson I share some interesting information about their origin. This information will help us understand those who want such things and where the idea originated. In dealing with this matter as with all others we must exercise discretion. We must uphold that which is good, oppose that which is evil and be tolerant of that which is in the real of opinion. If you find this lesson helpful, please forward it to Christians in your email directory. Feel free to make copies to share with others. Remember that the only church God will bless is the church that is submissive to and obedient to his will.

— John Waddey</font>

___________________________________
    • <font size=5>
      WHENCE CAME THE WORSHIP TEAM?
      </font>


      <font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>In churches committed to the change agenda, you will usually find a "worship team." Our wandering brethren sometimes called these "praise teams." Perhaps you, like me, have wondered, where did such ideas originate? In reading the book, Pagan Christianity, by Frank Viola and George Barna, I found the following information regarding the origins of the worship team. He opens his discussion by noting:
      • "In many contemporary churches...the choir has been replaced by the worship team" (p. 164).
      • He continues, "The standard worship team includes an amplified guitar, drums, keyboard, possibly a bass guitar and some special vocalists" (Ibid).
      • "Word are usually projected onto a screen... There are rarely songbooks or hymnals" (Ibid).
      • "The worship team will ...lead a lively, hand-clapping, body-swaying, hand-raising, (sometimes dancing) congregation... Typically the focus of the songs is on individual spiritual experience. First person singular pronouns –I, me, my–dominate a good number of the songs" (p. 164-165).
      • "The revolution (in Christian music) came when rock and roll was adapted into Christian music with the coming of the Jesus movement. This reform set the stage for the revolutionary musical changes to take root in the Christian church..." (Ibid).
      • "The origin of the worship team goes back to the founding of Calvary Chapel in 1965. Chuck Smith, the founder of the denomination, started a ministry for hippies and surfers. Smith welcomed the newly converted hippies to re-tune their guitars and play their now redeemed music in church" (Ibid).
      • "Since the advent of contemporary Christian music, the `worship wars' have begun constituting a divisive force that has balkanized the Christian church into `old styled-traditional-music' lovers vs. `new-styled-contemporary' music lovers. Not a few churches have been splintered right down the middle over what form of music is to be used during the church service" (Ibid. ft. note)
      • "The Vineyard (a contemporary charismatic denomination)....followed suit with the worship team.... Since that time, the Vineyard has probably had more influence on establishing worship teams and worship music..."
      • "In due time the guitar replaced the organ as the central instrument that led worship in the Protestant church. Although patterned after the rock concert of secular culture, the worship team has become as common as the pulpit" (p. 166).
      We recognize that not all congregations that have introduced praise teams have the instrumental band. Some however do. You should understand that those preachers and elders who have introduced worship teams into their worship did not discover them "after a long and prayerful study of the Bible." They have borrowed them from various denominational sources, hoping to have the same kind of enthusiasm and growth they have observed in their mega churches. The wish to have something new and different preceded the implementation of worship teams and other new aspects of the progressive churches. Concern about the scripturalness of such things or the harm they might cause the church are of little concern.

      We understand that the problem is not in having a committee or group of brethren to plan the worship service, nor is it in having more than one song leader before the congregation. The problem arises when such innovations are used as wedges to open the door for the use of instruments of music in worship (Eph. 5:19), to put Christian women in leadership roles in the worship (I Tim. 2:11-12), or other changes that do violate the sacred standard of Scripture (II John 9-11). The danger is seen when confusion and division occur (Rom. 16:18). By then the damage is done and the church has suffered great harm. Think of it this way. Say for 10 years you had taken the same medicine for your high blood pressure and it had worked fine. You go to a new young doctor and he insists that you need to change to a new kind of medicine. Against your better judgment, you take the medicine and become desperately ill. Thankfully you survive, although some did not. The young doctor was sure his prescription for a new medication would work wonders. In fact your old medicine was fully adequate for your needs. The new was a near disaster. So it is proving to be where the change agents insist on implementing their agenda in congregations that had done well prior to their coming.</font>

      ___________________________________

      **Pagan Christianity is a 2008 publication of Tyndale House Pub. Inc.
___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I don’t think the discussion of this subject on the “Worship Team” should escape Madison’s situation. After all, the emergence of the Praise Team was one major controversy at Madison—and it caused a lot of grief and confusion—it eventually led to the upheaval and many of the congregation’s members leaving in droves. There was division not only in the membership, but also in the leadership—one of the worst incidents that would adversely affect the congregation’s standing in the community and in the brotherhood.

I vividly remember when Keith Lancaster brought his organized “Worship Team” into the 10:00 o’clock assembly—which was then “traditional” [as the change agents would now identify it] and which is now “contemporary” [by the change agents’ standards]. The original “team” of 4 men and 4 women—all co-music-leaders—was prepared to do its performances with those loud handheld microphones. That was a shocker!!!

Many of the church elders themselves resigned. The ones that remained could then boldly assert and proclaim: “If you don’t like it, leave; we must move on.” And that’s what hundreds of members did—just like that.

The reader might be inclined to think that I’m bringing old issues back to the table, but not consider looking into the future; that past is past; that we must seek ways to be united as one body; that those who have left made that decision on their own; etc.

No, no, no. Certain members may think that the problem has been resolved; that there’s no more existing conflict; that members can co-exist even with the current designations that one assembly is “traditional” and the other “contemporary.” Oh, the “unity in diversity” thing? Hardly!!!

Just because the elders, who were concerned about the adverse effects of implementing controversial and divisive elements such as the “Worship Team,” are gone, the infection still needs to be treated and cured. Healing the wounds is simply not sufficient.

Madison’s “Praise Team” needs to go. The claimed “help-the-congregation-learn-new-contemporary-‘praise’-songs” objective has outlived the need for it. What remains is the performing artistry of the “Worship Team.” There is no need for a “church of Christ CHOIR”—churches of Christ have never had a Baptist choir before. And it is NOT about time to have and maintain one.

If I were Madison’s “Worship Leader,” I would not be needing co-leadership in “musical worship” from the 8 women of the 16-member setup. What an insult to the musical talent of the very, very capable “Worship Leader” to seek the unneeded assistance from the women leaders. Hmmm … only that the women do not wag their arms, although they lead in the programmed joy of handclapping; nonetheless, the women are CO-LEADERS.</font>
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Jimmy Joe
Jimmy Joe

May 12th, 2008, 2:29 am #16

I started to respond to your post with a lengthy one of my own. However, to save time and typing I remembered a maxim used by Dr. North. Never get into a puking contest with a buzzard.
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Dave
Dave

May 12th, 2008, 4:28 am #17

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>I don’t think the discussion of this subject on the “Worship Team” should escape Madison’s situation. After all, the emergence of the Praise Team was one major controversy at Madison—and it caused a lot of grief and confusion—it eventually led to the upheaval and many of the congregation’s members leaving in droves. There was division not only in the membership, but also in the leadership—one of the worst incidents that would adversely affect the congregation’s standing in the community and in the brotherhood.

I vividly remember when Keith Lancaster brought his organized “Worship Team” into the 10:00 o’clock assembly—which was then “traditional” [as the change agents would now identify it] and which is now “contemporary” [by the change agents’ standards]. The original “team” of 4 men and 4 women—all co-music-leaders—was prepared to do its performances with those loud handheld microphones. That was a shocker!!!

Many of the church elders themselves resigned. The ones that remained could then boldly assert and proclaim: “If you don’t like it, leave; we must move on.” And that’s what hundreds of members did—just like that.

The reader might be inclined to think that I’m bringing old issues back to the table, but not consider looking into the future; that past is past; that we must seek ways to be united as one body; that those who have left made that decision on their own; etc.

No, no, no. Certain members may think that the problem has been resolved; that there’s no more existing conflict; that members can co-exist even with the current designations that one assembly is “traditional” and the other “contemporary.” Oh, the “unity in diversity” thing? Hardly!!!

Just because the elders, who were concerned about the adverse effects of implementing controversial and divisive elements such as the “Worship Team,” are gone, the infection still needs to be treated and cured. Healing the wounds is simply not sufficient.

Madison’s “Praise Team” needs to go. The claimed “help-the-congregation-learn-new-contemporary-‘praise’-songs” objective has outlived the need for it. What remains is the performing artistry of the “Worship Team.” There is no need for a “church of Christ CHOIR”—churches of Christ have never had a Baptist choir before. And it is NOT about time to have and maintain one.

If I were Madison’s “Worship Leader,” I would not be needing co-leadership in “musical worship” from the 8 women of the 16-member setup. What an insult to the musical talent of the very, very capable “Worship Leader” to seek the unneeded assistance from the women leaders. Hmmm … only that the women do not wag their arms, although they lead in the programmed joy of handclapping; nonetheless, the women are CO-LEADERS.</font>
Donnie:
That last reply behooves me to ask....why stay in the brotherhood if you aren't happy? Why proclaim that you are a Christian, a follower of Christ with such a negative attitude? From the looks of this reply, you certainly aren't happy about anything.
If you are fighting the body from within, asi obvious, are you really a Christian at all?
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Alarmed
Alarmed

May 12th, 2008, 9:25 pm #18

I started to respond to your post with a lengthy one of my own. However, to save time and typing I remembered a maxim used by Dr. North. Never get into a puking contest with a buzzard.
Jimmy Joe,

I think you are underestimating the readers’ interest in comparing notes between two or more sides of those involved in a discussion.

Certain questions and issues need to be responded to or clarified. For example, when there is a special, elite group of musicians performing for the congregation and it is called the “worship team,”—and it didn’t exist before—would you be excluded from that team? Or, do you happen to be a member of the Madison church CHOIR?

I’m sure there are more related issues, but that one question of being a “member” (participant) of the elite group would make a good starting point of a discussion.

OK, so, there’s one set of views from the writer of the original post. Would you please rebut at least something that you strongly oppose?
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Alarmed
Alarmed

May 12th, 2008, 9:39 pm #19

Donnie:
That last reply behooves me to ask....why stay in the brotherhood if you aren't happy? Why proclaim that you are a Christian, a follower of Christ with such a negative attitude? From the looks of this reply, you certainly aren't happy about anything.
If you are fighting the body from within, asi obvious, are you really a Christian at all?
Dave,

Just where did you get the idea that having a man-made “Worship Team” is prevalent in the brotherhood? I think you should carefully review whatever statistical data you are being deceived by.

I question the veracity of your last statement. Wouldn’t you think that those who promote the man-devised scheme for a congregation to have a “Worship Team”—as if the rest of the congregation were NOT part of the CHOIR—are the ones intruding and fighting those already in the body? Think about that.
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Dave
Dave

May 15th, 2008, 4:36 am #20

Alarmed:
I assume that you are speaking to me when you ask..."Just where did you get the idea that having a man-made “Worship Team” is prevalent in the brotherhood?"

Where did I suggest or make known, in my reply, that the worship team is prevalent?
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