Dave
Dave

December 29th, 2010, 2:54 pm #11

Roncar,
You might say that what we have here is the ole 'leap before you look' fallacy. I don't believe Ken looks at dates. He just roams around a bit, 'seeking whom he may devour.'
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 29th, 2010, 4:10 pm #12

WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN ITS WORSHIP

A remarkable thing has come to pass in the brotherhood of Churches of Christ. For 200 years, since our movement began here in America, our brethren praised God with their lips and steadfastly refused to joined with their religious neighbors in using instruments of music in their worship. This they did, not because they were old fashioned, obstinate or ignorant, but because they found no authority in God's Word for that practice.

For this they bore the ridicule of their neighbors and the scorn of denominational clergy. They endured a devastating apostasy and division involving the issue a century ago, yet they held fast to their biblical faith and quickly recovered the losses incurred. Now, shockingly, we hear voices among us, saying that we have been wrong in our stand. That we caused division by our stubborn refusal to allow those to use instruments who desired them. Some smile and tell us our a cappella worship is only our tradition, not something to insist upon. Others remind us it is only a relic of our frontier years. Now some twenty congregations have chosen to use instruments of music in some or all of their worship. What shall we make of this decision?

Adding instrumental accompaniment to the song worship of a congregation is only a symptom of numerous underlying problems in the hearts of those who do so.

  • It is a rejection of the authority of Christ as head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22), which of necessity includes her worship. He nowhere authorizes it.

    </li>
  • It is a rejection of the authority of the Bible in the life of their congregations. They cannot find any teaching the New Testament to justify their actions.

    </li>
  • It is a matter of will-worship (Col. 2:23). Will-worship is finds its authority and justification in the mind and will of man rather than of God! They want instruments for their worship and that is sufficient reason for them to do so.

    </li>
  • It is an act of arrogance. They care not what Christ, His Word or their brethren think of their decision (Is. 13:11). They vainly assume that they know better than the thousands of faithful preachers and teachers who have gone before them who concluded that God's only authorizes singing for worship! They ignore the history of Christianity which demonstrates that the use of instruments was accepted a thousand years after the beginning of the church

    </li>
  • It is done to seek the favor and approval of men, to attract them to their assemblies (Gal. 1:10). They value the praises of shallow, worldly Christians and denominational visitors above the reign of Christ and their brethren.

    </li>
  • It reflects a lack of fear and reverence for God. We are to worship him with reverence and awe (Heb. 12:28). In all things we are to fear God and keep his commandments (Eccle. 12: 13).

    </li>
  • It is an act of presumption. For finite, sinful man to dare to change the prescribed worship of God and offer that which He has not called for is high-handed indeed (Num. 15:30).

    </li>
  • It is grows out of a rebellious heart that is not willing to yield itself to the wisdom, authority and glory of the Savior. In God's sight, such rebellion is as idolatry (I Sam. 15:23).

    </li>
  • To justify their use of instruments in worship, they denigrate those who went before them and the more than two and a half million members who today refuse to follow them into the dark forest of will-worship. In this they prove themselves to be unworthy members of the body of Christ.

    </li>
  • Like the ancient Adversary of God's people (Rev. 12:10), they resort to accusing those who stand before them with Scripture in hand challenging their departures. They accuse them of causing the division they themselves are fomenting.

    </li>
  • They blush not to sow discord and division among God's people. The terrible disruption of a century past, they ignore as they pursue their divisive agenda. They forget that God hates those who sow discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16,19).

    </li>
Some years ago, Dr. David Edwin Harrell, Jr. published a booklet entitled, "Emergence of the `Church of Christ Denomination.' Discussing the apostasy of the Christian Churches and Disciples of Christ a century ago, he writes, "The simple fact of the matter was that the people within the church no longer wanted the same kind of Christianity. This was the basic issuewhat doctrinal problems arose to divide over were inconsequential" (p. 14). "Instrumental music and organized societies were in essence the accidental basis of the doctrinal division in the movement. They certainly were not the cause of the schism. The cause was that the church had grown to include incompatible kinds of people" (p. 14). "The old values of the early leaders of the movement are no longer an acceptable expression of Christianity to this sophisticated element" (p. 20). "The cultured element in the movement has simply begun the search for a more sophisticated type of religion" (p. 23). "The church is dividing because there are two basic kinds of people within the movement who are demanding two very different kinds of religion" (p. 23). These thoughts will help us better understand what we are witnessing in our day.

___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
I was updating my paper on Music IS the laded burden of people who TAKE the kingdom or YOUR church house. Steve will pop in and answer because he was my only hope to find someone who has a clue.

Anyone is welcome to see if they pass the minimal entrance exam to determine whether they ARE a resting believer or a Captive-Carper
.
I think anyone who mocks the Word cannot be be a disciple of Christ.

I say that NONE of you can pass the exam to enter Jesus School, nursery level.
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Dave
Dave

December 29th, 2010, 4:44 pm #13

Nursery level you say?
Ken?

Ken, just remember about 'nursery level.'

Matthew 18:3
And he said: Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

I would certainly be on that level, than to be know it all hypocrite.

Know what I mean?

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 29th, 2010, 7:22 pm #14


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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

December 30th, 2010, 6:36 pm #15

Those who despise the WORD by fabricating their own define the Scribes and Pharisees: Jesus called them hypocrites by Quoting Christ in the Prophets to include entertainment speakers, singers and musicians. Christ in Jeremiah defines them as BLASPHEMERS:

Jer 23:16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts,
......Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you;
......they make you vain:
......they speak a vision of their own heart,
......and not out of the mouth of the Lord.

Miriam and the Levites "prophesied with musical instruments." A prophetes is one who speaks for a god and INTERPRETS his will to men, an expounder of his will, temple clergy, "Mousans" or musicians "singing the praises of agod."

Plato, Phaedrus [262d] ]the two discourses contain an example of the way in which one who knows the truth may lead his hearers on with sportive words; and I, Phaedrus, think the divinities of the place are the cause thereof; and perhaps too, the prophets of the Muses, who are singing above our heads, may have granted this boon to us by inspiration; at any rate, I possess no art of speaking.

Jer 23:17 They say still unto them that despise me,
......The Lord hath said, Ye shall have peace;
......and they say unto every one that walketh
......after the imagination of his own heart,
......No evil shall come upon you.

Despise tthe Word of God is:
...... Blasphmo , re,
...... I. v.a., = blasphme (eccl. Lat.), to revile, reproach, Vulg. 1 Par. 20, 7; God and divine things,
......to blaspheme: Christum, Prud. Apoth. 415: nomen Domini,


By using your own imagination and enhancements

Prvtas , tis, f. pravus, I. crookedness, inequality, irregularity, deformity
a distorting of the mouth in speaking, impropriety in speaking, in gestures,

Orto , 1. Speech, the power or faculty of speech, the habit or use of language:
quae (ferae) sunt rationis et orationis expertes,


Jer 23:18 For who hath stood in the counsel of the Lord,
......and hath perceived and heard his word?
......who hath marked his word, and heard it?

Jer 23:19 Behold, a whirlwind of the Lord is gone forth in fury,
......even a grievous whirlwind: it shall fall grievously upon the head of the wicked.

Turbo to throw into disorcer,

Jer 23:20 The anger of the Lord shall not return,
......until he have executed,
......and till he have performed the thoughts of his heart:
......in the latter days ye shall consider it perfectly.

Jer 23:21 I have not sent these prophets,
......yet they ran:
......I have not spoken to them,
......yet they prophesied.
Jer 23:22 But if they had stood in my counsel,
......and had caused my people to hear my words,
......then they should have turned them from their evil way,
......and from the evil of their doings.
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Rocnar
Rocnar

January 26th, 2011, 11:27 pm #16

Ken, it has been about 20 months since Stephen has posted. He may not be available at this very moment.
Ken, I'm sorry, my brother was wrong about that. It was actually Dr. Crump leading that attack on Stephen and you were just following the Doctor's lead. I bet you have some "lessons learned" on that. LOL!
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Joined: March 2nd, 2011, 7:23 pm

March 2nd, 2011, 8:15 pm #17

WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN ITS WORSHIP

A remarkable thing has come to pass in the brotherhood of Churches of Christ. For 200 years, since our movement began here in America, our brethren praised God with their lips and steadfastly refused to joined with their religious neighbors in using instruments of music in their worship. This they did, not because they were old fashioned, obstinate or ignorant, but because they found no authority in God's Word for that practice.

For this they bore the ridicule of their neighbors and the scorn of denominational clergy. They endured a devastating apostasy and division involving the issue a century ago, yet they held fast to their biblical faith and quickly recovered the losses incurred. Now, shockingly, we hear voices among us, saying that we have been wrong in our stand. That we caused division by our stubborn refusal to allow those to use instruments who desired them. Some smile and tell us our a cappella worship is only our tradition, not something to insist upon. Others remind us it is only a relic of our frontier years. Now some twenty congregations have chosen to use instruments of music in some or all of their worship. What shall we make of this decision?

Adding instrumental accompaniment to the song worship of a congregation is only a symptom of numerous underlying problems in the hearts of those who do so.

  • It is a rejection of the authority of Christ as head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22), which of necessity includes her worship. He nowhere authorizes it.

    </li>
  • It is a rejection of the authority of the Bible in the life of their congregations. They cannot find any teaching the New Testament to justify their actions.

    </li>
  • It is a matter of will-worship (Col. 2:23). Will-worship is finds its authority and justification in the mind and will of man rather than of God! They want instruments for their worship and that is sufficient reason for them to do so.

    </li>
  • It is an act of arrogance. They care not what Christ, His Word or their brethren think of their decision (Is. 13:11). They vainly assume that they know better than the thousands of faithful preachers and teachers who have gone before them who concluded that God's only authorizes singing for worship! They ignore the history of Christianity which demonstrates that the use of instruments was accepted a thousand years after the beginning of the church

    </li>
  • It is done to seek the favor and approval of men, to attract them to their assemblies (Gal. 1:10). They value the praises of shallow, worldly Christians and denominational visitors above the reign of Christ and their brethren.

    </li>
  • It reflects a lack of fear and reverence for God. We are to worship him with reverence and awe (Heb. 12:28). In all things we are to fear God and keep his commandments (Eccle. 12: 13).

    </li>
  • It is an act of presumption. For finite, sinful man to dare to change the prescribed worship of God and offer that which He has not called for is high-handed indeed (Num. 15:30).

    </li>
  • It is grows out of a rebellious heart that is not willing to yield itself to the wisdom, authority and glory of the Savior. In God's sight, such rebellion is as idolatry (I Sam. 15:23).

    </li>
  • To justify their use of instruments in worship, they denigrate those who went before them and the more than two and a half million members who today refuse to follow them into the dark forest of will-worship. In this they prove themselves to be unworthy members of the body of Christ.

    </li>
  • Like the ancient Adversary of God's people (Rev. 12:10), they resort to accusing those who stand before them with Scripture in hand challenging their departures. They accuse them of causing the division they themselves are fomenting.

    </li>
  • They blush not to sow discord and division among God's people. The terrible disruption of a century past, they ignore as they pursue their divisive agenda. They forget that God hates those who sow discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16,19).

    </li>
Some years ago, Dr. David Edwin Harrell, Jr. published a booklet entitled, "Emergence of the `Church of Christ Denomination.' Discussing the apostasy of the Christian Churches and Disciples of Christ a century ago, he writes, "The simple fact of the matter was that the people within the church no longer wanted the same kind of Christianity. This was the basic issuewhat doctrinal problems arose to divide over were inconsequential" (p. 14). "Instrumental music and organized societies were in essence the accidental basis of the doctrinal division in the movement. They certainly were not the cause of the schism. The cause was that the church had grown to include incompatible kinds of people" (p. 14). "The old values of the early leaders of the movement are no longer an acceptable expression of Christianity to this sophisticated element" (p. 20). "The cultured element in the movement has simply begun the search for a more sophisticated type of religion" (p. 23). "The church is dividing because there are two basic kinds of people within the movement who are demanding two very different kinds of religion" (p. 23). These thoughts will help us better understand what we are witnessing in our day.

___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE electricity IN ITS WORSHIP

A remarkable thing has come to pass in the Churche of Christ denomination. For 200 years, since the Church of Christ denomination began here in America, our brethren praised God with their lips and steadfastly refused to joined with their religious neighbors in using electricity in their worship. This they did, not because they were old fashioned, obstinate or ignorant, but because they found no authority in God's Word for that practice.
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Joined: March 2nd, 2011, 7:23 pm

March 2nd, 2011, 8:26 pm #18

WHEN A CONGREGATION ELECTS TO USE INSTRUMENTS OF MUSIC IN ITS WORSHIP

A remarkable thing has come to pass in the brotherhood of Churches of Christ. For 200 years, since our movement began here in America, our brethren praised God with their lips and steadfastly refused to joined with their religious neighbors in using instruments of music in their worship. This they did, not because they were old fashioned, obstinate or ignorant, but because they found no authority in God's Word for that practice.

For this they bore the ridicule of their neighbors and the scorn of denominational clergy. They endured a devastating apostasy and division involving the issue a century ago, yet they held fast to their biblical faith and quickly recovered the losses incurred. Now, shockingly, we hear voices among us, saying that we have been wrong in our stand. That we caused division by our stubborn refusal to allow those to use instruments who desired them. Some smile and tell us our a cappella worship is only our tradition, not something to insist upon. Others remind us it is only a relic of our frontier years. Now some twenty congregations have chosen to use instruments of music in some or all of their worship. What shall we make of this decision?

Adding instrumental accompaniment to the song worship of a congregation is only a symptom of numerous underlying problems in the hearts of those who do so.

  • It is a rejection of the authority of Christ as head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22), which of necessity includes her worship. He nowhere authorizes it.

    </li>
  • It is a rejection of the authority of the Bible in the life of their congregations. They cannot find any teaching the New Testament to justify their actions.

    </li>
  • It is a matter of will-worship (Col. 2:23). Will-worship is finds its authority and justification in the mind and will of man rather than of God! They want instruments for their worship and that is sufficient reason for them to do so.

    </li>
  • It is an act of arrogance. They care not what Christ, His Word or their brethren think of their decision (Is. 13:11). They vainly assume that they know better than the thousands of faithful preachers and teachers who have gone before them who concluded that God's only authorizes singing for worship! They ignore the history of Christianity which demonstrates that the use of instruments was accepted a thousand years after the beginning of the church

    </li>
  • It is done to seek the favor and approval of men, to attract them to their assemblies (Gal. 1:10). They value the praises of shallow, worldly Christians and denominational visitors above the reign of Christ and their brethren.

    </li>
  • It reflects a lack of fear and reverence for God. We are to worship him with reverence and awe (Heb. 12:28). In all things we are to fear God and keep his commandments (Eccle. 12: 13).

    </li>
  • It is an act of presumption. For finite, sinful man to dare to change the prescribed worship of God and offer that which He has not called for is high-handed indeed (Num. 15:30).

    </li>
  • It is grows out of a rebellious heart that is not willing to yield itself to the wisdom, authority and glory of the Savior. In God's sight, such rebellion is as idolatry (I Sam. 15:23).

    </li>
  • To justify their use of instruments in worship, they denigrate those who went before them and the more than two and a half million members who today refuse to follow them into the dark forest of will-worship. In this they prove themselves to be unworthy members of the body of Christ.

    </li>
  • Like the ancient Adversary of God's people (Rev. 12:10), they resort to accusing those who stand before them with Scripture in hand challenging their departures. They accuse them of causing the division they themselves are fomenting.

    </li>
  • They blush not to sow discord and division among God's people. The terrible disruption of a century past, they ignore as they pursue their divisive agenda. They forget that God hates those who sow discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16,19).

    </li>
Some years ago, Dr. David Edwin Harrell, Jr. published a booklet entitled, "Emergence of the `Church of Christ Denomination.' Discussing the apostasy of the Christian Churches and Disciples of Christ a century ago, he writes, "The simple fact of the matter was that the people within the church no longer wanted the same kind of Christianity. This was the basic issuewhat doctrinal problems arose to divide over were inconsequential" (p. 14). "Instrumental music and organized societies were in essence the accidental basis of the doctrinal division in the movement. They certainly were not the cause of the schism. The cause was that the church had grown to include incompatible kinds of people" (p. 14). "The old values of the early leaders of the movement are no longer an acceptable expression of Christianity to this sophisticated element" (p. 20). "The cultured element in the movement has simply begun the search for a more sophisticated type of religion" (p. 23). "The church is dividing because there are two basic kinds of people within the movement who are demanding two very different kinds of religion" (p. 23). These thoughts will help us better understand what we are witnessing in our day.

___________________________________
John Waddey, Editor
Christianity: Then and Now

E-Mail: [url=mailto:johnwaddey@aol.com]johnwaddey@aol.com[/url]
Adding the use of electricity worship of a congregation is only a symptom of numerous underlying problems in the hearts of those who do so.


It is a rejection of the authority of Christ as head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22), which of necessity includes her worship. He nowhere authorizes the use of electricity in worship.


It is a rejection of the authority of the Bible in the life of their congregations. They cannot find any teaching the New Testament to justify their actions.


It is a matter of will-worship (Col. 2:23). Will-worship is finds its authority and justification in the mind and will of man rather than of God! They want the use of electricity for their worship and that is sufficient reason for them to do so.


It is an act of arrogance. They care not what Christ, His Word or their brethren think of their decision (Is. 13:11). They vainly assume that they know better than the thousands of faithful preachers and teachers who have gone before them who concluded that God does not authorizes the use of electricity in worship! They ignore the history of Christianity which demonstrates that the use of electricity was accepted a thousand years after the beginning of the church


It is done to seek the favor and approval of men, to attract them to their assemblies (Gal. 1:10). They value the praises of shallow, worldly Christians and denominational visitors above the reign of Christ and their brethren.


It reflects a lack of fear and reverence for God. We are to worship him with reverence and awe (Heb. 12:28). In all things we are to fear God and keep his commandments (Eccle. 12: 13). Nowhere in the Bible does God commands the use of electricity in worship and the legalistic patternists know that.


It is an act of presumption to use electricity in worship. For finite, sinful man to dare to change the prescribed worship of God and offer that which He has not called for is high-handed indeed (Num. 15:30).


It is grows out of a rebellious heart that is not willing to yield itself to the wisdom, authority and glory of the Savior. In God's sight, such rebellion is as idolatry (I Sam. 15:23).


To justify their use of electricity in worship, they denigrate those who went before them and the more than two and a half million members who today cannot follow them into the dark forest of will-worship and use electricity in worship. In this they prove themselves to be unworthy members of the body of Christ.


Like the ancient Adversary of God's people (Rev. 12:10), they resort to accusing those who stand before them with Scripture in hand challenging their departures. They accuse them of causing the division they themselves are fomenting.


They blush not to sow discord and division among God's people. The terrible disruption of a century past, they ignore as they pursue their divisive agenda. They forget that God hates those who sow discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16,19).

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 2nd, 2011, 9:40 pm #19

Churches of Christ, like all church fathers and founders of denominations rejected instruments for several simple reasons.

They understood that in ALL of the instrumental passages people are contriving to "make the lambs dumb before the slaughter."

http://www.piney.com/Amos-Five.html

Furthermore, they KNEW that none of the Bible was metrical and was never and could be sung in the modern tuneful sense: sing or cantillate is "using the normal inflections of the human voice." You see, the purpose was to TEACH the Prophets and Apostless. You cannot even halluciate a "praise service" in the school of Christ.

NO ONE sang tunefully with or without instruments until after the Reformation: then some Psalms (only) had to be recomposed and then sung in unison.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

March 3rd, 2011, 6:04 am #20

Adding the use of electricity worship of a congregation is only a symptom of numerous underlying problems in the hearts of those who do so.


It is a rejection of the authority of Christ as head over all things to the church (Eph. 1:22), which of necessity includes her worship. He nowhere authorizes the use of electricity in worship.


It is a rejection of the authority of the Bible in the life of their congregations. They cannot find any teaching the New Testament to justify their actions.


It is a matter of will-worship (Col. 2:23). Will-worship is finds its authority and justification in the mind and will of man rather than of God! They want the use of electricity for their worship and that is sufficient reason for them to do so.


It is an act of arrogance. They care not what Christ, His Word or their brethren think of their decision (Is. 13:11). They vainly assume that they know better than the thousands of faithful preachers and teachers who have gone before them who concluded that God does not authorizes the use of electricity in worship! They ignore the history of Christianity which demonstrates that the use of electricity was accepted a thousand years after the beginning of the church


It is done to seek the favor and approval of men, to attract them to their assemblies (Gal. 1:10). They value the praises of shallow, worldly Christians and denominational visitors above the reign of Christ and their brethren.


It reflects a lack of fear and reverence for God. We are to worship him with reverence and awe (Heb. 12:28). In all things we are to fear God and keep his commandments (Eccle. 12: 13). Nowhere in the Bible does God commands the use of electricity in worship and the legalistic patternists know that.


It is an act of presumption to use electricity in worship. For finite, sinful man to dare to change the prescribed worship of God and offer that which He has not called for is high-handed indeed (Num. 15:30).


It is grows out of a rebellious heart that is not willing to yield itself to the wisdom, authority and glory of the Savior. In God's sight, such rebellion is as idolatry (I Sam. 15:23).


To justify their use of electricity in worship, they denigrate those who went before them and the more than two and a half million members who today cannot follow them into the dark forest of will-worship and use electricity in worship. In this they prove themselves to be unworthy members of the body of Christ.


Like the ancient Adversary of God's people (Rev. 12:10), they resort to accusing those who stand before them with Scripture in hand challenging their departures. They accuse them of causing the division they themselves are fomenting.


They blush not to sow discord and division among God's people. The terrible disruption of a century past, they ignore as they pursue their divisive agenda. They forget that God hates those who sow discord among brethren (Prov. 6:16,19).
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]David,

It's plagiarism -- almost. So, it was easy for you to simply substitute "it" (electricity) for instrumental music and then present John Waddey's bullet points as your own. (You may ask next time for some HTML lesson regarding the use of bullet points for emphasis.)

Your comparison between electricity and musical instruments does not compute:[/color]

</b>
APPLES not = ORANGES


[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Let me tell you the difference:

<b>(1) Musical devices are PLAYED by music lovers and performers

------------------- versus --------------------

(2) Electricity is never to be PLAYED with.
[/color]
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