Bill
Bill

November 25th, 2016, 10:34 pm #21

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Me, too, Rancor.

Not only that "I think"; but also that "I will stick with the KJV Bible." Considering some of the passages imperfectly translated.

However, I will continue to research as to why some of the passages in modern versions of the Bible were/are not properly translated in accordance with the original/earliest manuscripts. For example:

1. God's Word is inerrant as: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God."
2. So, there came the earliest, original manuscripts.
3. Then, the scribes and reproduction of manuscripts.
4. Then, man-made doctrines formed: the Trinity dogma and other creeds.
5. Then, the printing press was invented.
6. Then, there were translators and modern translators of the Bible.

Have you not realized that translators are human and error-prone even though God's Word is inerrant? Doctrines were already formed prior to translations. Surprise! Surprise! Surprise! Some passages have been translated with doctrinal biases and prejudices. Good examples are John 1:1 and Isaiah 9:6. We have covered these issues many times already in various threads. But we'd be glad to discuss them here again.[/color]
The only "imperfectly translated" passages in the KJV are in the minds of those who reject the subjects of those passages in the first place. The passages in question primarily focus on the Trinity and Jesus as God. Naturally, a few folks who reject F,S,HS as the Trinity and Jesus as God will maintain that those passages are "imperfectly translated"; that is, their bias is quite evident. Whereas such a bias comforts those folks, the rest of the Christian world accepts the KJV as written.
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Stan
Stan

November 25th, 2016, 10:45 pm #22

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Is this Pope Francis singing:

"Holy! Holy! Holy! ... God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity"?

Wishing that the leaders of the Restoration Movement of the church of Christ in America were here to watch and listen to the pagan-influenced, Roman Catholic-invented Trinity dogma. Christ and His apostles as well.

"Worship Leaders" and "Praise Teams" perhaps can emulate the performances of the musical Pope?[/color]
What about Acts 1:8?

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses..."

Is Jesus talking about the Holy Spirit coming upon the apostles or not?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 25th, 2016, 11:24 pm #23

The only "imperfectly translated" passages in the KJV are in the minds of those who reject the subjects of those passages in the first place. The passages in question primarily focus on the Trinity and Jesus as God. Naturally, a few folks who reject F,S,HS as the Trinity and Jesus as God will maintain that those passages are "imperfectly translated"; that is, their bias is quite evident. Whereas such a bias comforts those folks, the rest of the Christian world accepts the KJV as written.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Where have you been, Bill? That's what we've discussing very much. In fact, you "show up" for the most part only when the discussion is about the Catholic-authorized "Trinity" dogma that you vigorously defend.

There's no such thing as the "Trinity" in the Old Testament and in the life of the early New Testament church.

No doubt that the "Jesus is God" perception (been there ... done that) and that "the Holy Ghost" is God-Person no. 3 comprise the core-concept of the man-concocted Trinity doctrine

The Trinity dogma was born in the 4th century, and it has its own history.

If you refuse to even read all the scriptural evidences that support the truth that's there is only one true God the Father and one Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Messiah whom God sent to this world, there's nothing else that the Scripture can help you with.

If those supporting scriptures don't help and convince you away from what the RCC with its papacy teaches you, then that remains to be your problem. The fact that you refuse to study the subject matter by way of technical research, such as resorting to what the earliest, original manuscripts reveal, then you can't be helped.

To keep reciting the Trinity pledge of allegiance as your defense of the dogma is certainly your prerogative.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 25th, 2016, 11:50 pm #24

What about Acts 1:8?

"But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses..."

Is Jesus talking about the Holy Spirit coming upon the apostles or not?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]An excellent question!!!

The holy spirit OF God is never a PERSON as the Trinity dogma suggests.

The word "spirit" is never in physical form; it has different meanings that can refer to wind, power, breath, mind.

At creation, "the spirit of God" moved "upon the face of the waters" (Genesis 1:2). That was the "power" of God.

At Pentecost, in addition to Acts 1:8 (that you quoted), we take into consideration the events in Acts 2:

[2] And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
[3] And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
[4] And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

Yes, "a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind."

In Job 27[3] All the while my breath is in me, and "the spirit of God is in my nostrils."[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 26th, 2016, 12:26 am #25

Continuing what Donnie said:

Yes. But Jesus in His glorified state IS Holy Spirit. There are many threads all tied into a knot at Pentecost.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


Another or "allos" is not "heteros" but different in some respects.

CONDITION:

Spirit is never a people but the "mental disposition of that person."

John 14:17 Even the Spirit OF truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


The Spirit OF truth is the spirit WHICH IS TRUTH.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE [the spirit which IS truth and not a spook].

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


I have read most of the copied books on The Holy Spirit and I have never heard or read anyone who can quote verse 18. There are several other passages saying the same things.

It was the KJV who decided that wind or BREATH was a Holy Ghost or the "spook of a dead man."
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 26th, 2016, 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Bill
Bill

November 26th, 2016, 12:28 am #26

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Nope:

1. All power (authority) was given by GOD Himself to Jesus Christ and to no one else -- that power (authority) was not given to your perceived three-Gods-in-one (the pope's Trinity). That means that God did not give ALL power: (1) 1/3 to God the Father Himself, (2) 1/3 to Jesus Christ, (3) 1/3 to the Trinity's version of the Holy Ghost.

2. This I can agree with you: Therefore, "in the name of Jesus" means "by the authority of Jesus." So, it is not by the authority of the Catholic Trinity's three-Gods-in-one.

3. The number of "saved by faith only" passages found in the Bible is zero. To use that Baptist analogy is illogical -- it must be your own logic.

4. Baptism is for the "remission of sins," however the baptizer pronounces it. In fact, Acts 2:38, which is the main passage that churches of Christ refer to in defense of salvation clearly indicates so. Bill, read it: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins."[/color]
I see that I must make a clarification for Donnie. There are far more scriptural passages that require faith for salvation but that do not simultaneously mention baptism; fewer passages mention baptism for salvation. The Baptists use that as one argument against baptism as a requirement for salvation: faith passages surpass baptism passages, which is playing the "numbers game." Since I was formerly an organist for a Baptist church, I know of what I speak. A Baptist pastor even once told me that there is no Scripture in which baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation. He was quite wrong, of course.

The typical wording that churches of Christ use is: "Upon the confession of your faith in Jesus Christ and in obedience to His command, I now baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit [FSHS] for the remission of sins." That was the wording used when I was baptized and when many others I've witnessed were baptized. I'm sure Donnie was also baptized with the FSHS wording. Frankly, I've never heard a baptizer say, "I now baptize you in the name of Jesus..."; the wording has always included FSHS. Now, Donnie claims that baptizing in the name of FSHS is wrong. No, it's not wrong, it's just a reflection of his peculiar bias against the Trinity.

So when Donnie emphasizes that there are far more baptize-in-the-name-of-Jesus passages, compared to only one baptize-in-the-name-of-FSHS passage, he's obviously playing the "numbers game," just as the Baptists do. In reality, both wordings are acceptable.
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Bill
Bill

November 26th, 2016, 12:32 am #27

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Where have you been, Bill? That's what we've discussing very much. In fact, you "show up" for the most part only when the discussion is about the Catholic-authorized "Trinity" dogma that you vigorously defend.

There's no such thing as the "Trinity" in the Old Testament and in the life of the early New Testament church.

No doubt that the "Jesus is God" perception (been there ... done that) and that "the Holy Ghost" is God-Person no. 3 comprise the core-concept of the man-concocted Trinity doctrine

The Trinity dogma was born in the 4th century, and it has its own history.

If you refuse to even read all the scriptural evidences that support the truth that's there is only one true God the Father and one Son of God, Jesus Christ, the Messiah whom God sent to this world, there's nothing else that the Scripture can help you with.

If those supporting scriptures don't help and convince you away from what the RCC with its papacy teaches you, then that remains to be your problem. The fact that you refuse to study the subject matter by way of technical research, such as resorting to what the earliest, original manuscripts reveal, then you can't be helped.

To keep reciting the Trinity pledge of allegiance as your defense of the dogma is certainly your prerogative.[/color]
To keep reciting his denial of the Trinity and his denial that Jesus is God is certainly Donnie's prerogative.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 26th, 2016, 12:54 am #28

Continuing what Donnie said:

Yes. But Jesus in His glorified state IS Holy Spirit. There are many threads all tied into a knot at Pentecost.

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


Another or "allos" is not "heteros" but different in some respects.

CONDITION:

Spirit is never a people but the "mental disposition of that person."

John 14:17 Even the Spirit OF truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.


The Spirit OF truth is the spirit WHICH IS TRUTH.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the WORDS that I SPEAK unto you, they are SPIRIT, and they are LIFE [the spirit which IS truth and not a spook].

John 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


I have read most of the copied books on The Holy Spirit and I have never heard or read anyone who can quote verse 18. There are several other passages saying the same things.

It was the KJV who decided that wind or BREATH was a Holy Ghost or the "spook of a dead man."
John 20:22 And when he had said this, he BREATHED on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy SPIRIT:

Ezekiel 37:9] Then said he to me, Prophesy to the wind [spiritum], prophesy, son of man, and tell the wind, Thus says the Lord Yahweh: Come from the four winds, breath, and breathe [Spiritus] on these slain, that they may live.


The apostles did not see a SPIRIT person but the "breath" of God had been WITH them and would be IN them as it was Jesus as Holy Spirit (pure breath is what little simple simon heard).

No reader would have thought that WORD or BREATH were extra gods required for the ALMIGHTY to rule.

"Progresssives" actually claim that Holy Spirit as a god was what made it possible for Jesus the Son and "brother" to do His Work. That "god" person was also "who" made it possible for the Almighty to communicate with the Son.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on November 26th, 2016, 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 26th, 2016, 1:25 am #29

I see that I must make a clarification for Donnie. There are far more scriptural passages that require faith for salvation but that do not simultaneously mention baptism; fewer passages mention baptism for salvation. The Baptists use that as one argument against baptism as a requirement for salvation: faith passages surpass baptism passages, which is playing the "numbers game." Since I was formerly an organist for a Baptist church, I know of what I speak. A Baptist pastor even once told me that there is no Scripture in which baptism is an absolute requirement for salvation. He was quite wrong, of course.

The typical wording that churches of Christ use is: "Upon the confession of your faith in Jesus Christ and in obedience to His command, I now baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit [FSHS] for the remission of sins." That was the wording used when I was baptized and when many others I've witnessed were baptized. I'm sure Donnie was also baptized with the FSHS wording. Frankly, I've never heard a baptizer say, "I now baptize you in the name of Jesus..."; the wording has always included FSHS. Now, Donnie claims that baptizing in the name of FSHS is wrong. No, it's not wrong, it's just a reflection of his peculiar bias against the Trinity.

So when Donnie emphasizes that there are far more baptize-in-the-name-of-Jesus passages, compared to only one baptize-in-the-name-of-FSHS passage, he's obviously playing the "numbers game," just as the Baptists do. In reality, both wordings are acceptable.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

This debate has nothing to do with your "numbers game."

The oddity is in your not recognizing the fact that throughout the New Testament, it's all about the truth that it was God who gave Jesus "a name which is above every name" (Philippians 2:9). God did not give Jesus "the name of F-S-HS."

The New Testament also unequivocally reveals that God (the Father of Jesus and is also our Father) gave His Son "all power" in heaven and earth.

As you have frequently asserted (and I fully agree with you on this) that the power/authority was given to Jesus. Again, the power/authority was not given by God the Father individually or collectively to the three-Gods-in-one [your Trinity].

I pray to our Father in heaven with "in the name of Jesus." Do you pray with "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost," Bill?

Col. 3[17] -- And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

I know, I know: how anxious you are to change that passage to state: Do all in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

The Roman Catholic Church, which invented the Trinity doctrine, has already admitted to adding "in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit" to the text in Matt. 28:19 (cf. Catholic Encyclopedia). It doesn't make sense that while you accept the RCC teaching of the Trinity, you reject its claim that it changed the text from: "Go and make disciples of all nations IN MY NAME."[/color]



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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 26th, 2016, 1:30 am #30

To keep reciting his denial of the Trinity and his denial that Jesus is God is certainly Donnie's prerogative.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="TIMES]It is ... certainly. Denying or rejecting man's teaching as if it were God's truth is not a bad thing.[/color]
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