Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

January 1st, 2007, 3:18 pm #41

Donnie:
You said..."Servant, I was looking for your rebuttal in detail against my specific statements. I didn’t see any explanation in your post except to remark concerning “getting to heaven” and distrusting “your brother in Christ.” Oh, well, I think they’re good subject matters for discussion at some other time."

Would that be like when I gave rebuttal about your "proof", or lack thereof of showing historical evidence that instrumental music was not used with the first century church?

You show historians who did not live during the time of the first century church. I refutted one of your main historians, whom you say was quotted out of context when I showed proof that the said there was "no blame" for anyone if they wanted to used instruments of music.
Most of the historians that you quoted mentioned about the 'lifeless' instruments' out of preferrrence. That has nothing to do with fact showing that the first century church did/did not use instrumental music.
NO EVIDENCE Donnie. Even the historian Clemente, that you used to show 'proof', showed disdain for your 'proof.'
You use statements such as 'the silence of God is not permissive', and 'where the Bible speaks speak, and where the Bible is silent remain silent.
So I ask you about the great commission and how it tells us to 'go' but is SILENT on HOW to go. But then that is sooooooooo different from when the NT tells us to sing, and not HOW to sing.
Donnie, will those like you always claim ignorance to why the church of Christ is growing slower than it ever has???
Its because of WHAT YOU LIKE, but hexing and vexing what you don't like.
You use your sacred CENI for the items in the NT for which you prefer, but when it is used against you (the great commission and silence on how to go) then you say it is sin.
The only sin here is when Christians take it upon themselves to try to rewrite the Words of God and add sin to the Word where there was none in the first place. I used the word 'Christians' Donnie because I believe that you are a Christian, just a misguided one. Perhaps you no longer call me one, but I still believe that you and Bill and even Ken are my Christian brothers who are in SERIOUS error and need to ask God for forgiveness for your sins. I have already forgiven you. If it is a strong rhetoric that I have to keep up with you men, then so be it. YOU ARE IN ERROR, and you need to deal with it.
Servant said: "Donnie, will those like you always claim ignorance to why the church of Christ is growing slower than it ever has???"

If the church of Christ is "growing slower" at all, it's because people are slowly turning away from the true faith and jumping on the wagons of denominationalism with its penchant for promoting man-contrived doctrines to suit the carnally-minded, entertainment-oriented masses. But this should be no surprise to the discerning, for Christ through the apostle Paul centuries ago predicted that such behavior would eventually come to pass:

"For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:3-4 KJV).

Servant is reminded that we are no longer under the Old Covenant or the Law of Moses, which utilized instruments of music in worship. We are now under the New Covenant or the New Testament of Christ, which no longer authorizes instruments of music in worship. The NT specifically authorizes only vocal music or singing and making melody in the heart (Eph. 5:19; Col. 3:16 KJV).

Servant greatly emphasized "sin." Servant is also reminded that it is indeed a grievous sin to add anything more to NT Scripture or to go beyond what is written in NT scripture (I Cor. 4:6 KJV) when the NT has already laid down specific guidelines pertaining to worship and doctrine. Since singing and making melody in the heart are a part of worship and since only singing/making melody in the heart are authorized therein, to go beyond NT Scripture by adding musical instruments is indeed sinful. The melody is made in the heart, not with mechanical instruments. Thus God has not only commanded us to sing, He has also commanded us "how" to accompany our singing: by making melody in the heart.

So it's not a matter of preference and never will be a matter of preference; it's a matter of obedience to NT Scripture.
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Evelyn Julian Dallas
Evelyn Julian Dallas

January 2nd, 2007, 6:32 pm #42

I am sick ay heart about what happened at Madison. I graduated from Lipscomb in 1959--Brother North's son Tim married my cousin. I remember when Nick Boone led singing there and now, I cannot believe what happened and what is happening around the country.

My fear is that many congregations are not aware of this movement, and it will happen and be too late. How do we make them aware? Some of my friends I talk to just sort of dismiss what I say as "demented ramblings."

The elders at Nashville Road are aware at this point. My father, P. J. Julian, was an elder there for 40 years and is now deceased (2000). He, at one time, went into the pulpit and escorted the visiting preacher out the door.

Another time, he and the minister, Brother Harris, asked a couple not to return because the man was beginning some of the "code" questions and comments in the men's BIBLE class.
Another time, he stopped a slide show by a Philipine visitor who stated "In the Philipines, we don't call it the Church of Christ but the "Way." At that point, the slide show stopped.

A child of Jackson County hills, my father was not a formally "schooled" person; however, he did know the BIBLE, and I miss him so very much.

What do I, as one person, do to help this problem?

Evelyn
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Joined: December 30th, 2006, 8:03 pm

January 3rd, 2007, 4:51 am #43

Evelyn...

With all due respect to you... it seems that you are missing the point. Christ commanded us to love one another and to serve others and their needs before our own... and that was his basic message!

He stayed above the fray and rebuked the Pharisies when they tried to question him or his followers on minor technicalities of the Law. That is basically (in my opinion) what has happened in the more conservative Churches of Christ... there is a lot of nit-picking going on and we have gotten to the point to where we scrutinize every little thing that happens so much that we miss the point of what Christ really wants from us!!

Traditional Churches of Christ are quickly dying and by the time our kids grow old, they may be close to non-existant. I truly believe that the main reason for this is that we have failed to show people on the outside of the church that we grasp the basic message of Jesus Christ and that our main focus is on being Jesus Christ to a lost world... instead we have judged and condemned others that don't have all the same beliefs and traditions that we do. The rest of the world sees us as a bunch of closed-minded and legalistic hypocrites that would rather judge everyone and prove that we are right and that everyone else is wrong, as opposed to embracing them with love and acceptance in spite of their differences from us!
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

January 3rd, 2007, 6:56 am #44

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Vince,

What happened to “the rookie” this last game?

It appears that you don’t take problems and issues that confront and divide certain congregations that seriously. I wish I could help you understand that this website’s objective is to inform and warn others of the pitfalls and dangers that a church might expect when it is intruded upon and division ensues, and then acquisition is imminent.

Of course, we know that Christians are commanded to love and to serve. That’s common knowledge in Christendom, isn’t it? So, you are making that an issue here when it really is not an issue. In case you didn’t know it, change agents in the brotherhood use the same kind of defense mechanism—love one another—when, in fact, the issue has to do for the most part with doctrinal differences. If we don’t deal with these differences, why even bother to be loyal to the church? Why not just join any religious group of one’s choice?

Hey, speak to the Seventh Day Adventists and others about the law of Moses and the technicalities of the law—not to churches of Christ. Why? That subject matter is irrelevant as far as the church abiding in the doctrine of Christ and His apostles is concerned. Again, another ploy by change agents to accuse members of the church who rely on apostolic teachings—that is not by any means being Pharisaical or legalistic!

No, Mr. Young, the church is not dying. You’re only wishing, perhaps? You may need to do more research as to why churches of Christ were the fastest growing religious faith in the 50’s and 60’s—and that was when the unadulterated gospel of Christ was the central message … you know, just prior to the time when the now-change-agents began to experience the “new enlightenment” and suddenly outsmarting the Holy Scripture?

BTW, following the teachings of Christ and the apostles as revealed in the New Testament is not the same as following “human traditions.” Following His teachings is neither condemning others nor being closed-minded.

Donnie</font>
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

January 3rd, 2007, 8:01 am #45

I am sick ay heart about what happened at Madison. I graduated from Lipscomb in 1959--Brother North's son Tim married my cousin. I remember when Nick Boone led singing there and now, I cannot believe what happened and what is happening around the country.

My fear is that many congregations are not aware of this movement, and it will happen and be too late. How do we make them aware? Some of my friends I talk to just sort of dismiss what I say as "demented ramblings."

The elders at Nashville Road are aware at this point. My father, P. J. Julian, was an elder there for 40 years and is now deceased (2000). He, at one time, went into the pulpit and escorted the visiting preacher out the door.

Another time, he and the minister, Brother Harris, asked a couple not to return because the man was beginning some of the "code" questions and comments in the men's BIBLE class.
Another time, he stopped a slide show by a Philipine visitor who stated "In the Philipines, we don't call it the Church of Christ but the "Way." At that point, the slide show stopped.

A child of Jackson County hills, my father was not a formally "schooled" person; however, he did know the BIBLE, and I miss him so very much.

What do I, as one person, do to help this problem?

Evelyn
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Evelyn,

Thanks for writing.

I’m reminded of the message I posted above from Jared D.—it is titled “I Remember the Day That I Left….” [by Jared] (October 20 2006, 1:56 AM). Actually, I extracted his letter from another thread—“Motivated Change Agents Challenging Elders of the Church.” In that thread, Jared’s letter was a very appropriate response to John Waddey’s article, “PROVIDING IMMUNITY TO FADS IN WORSHIP

Indeed, the combined idea of: (1) providing a so-called “holy” entertainment [fads] at the postmodern “worship center” and (b) the elders approving it … yields to alienation among the brethren and chaos—among so many other things.

No, you are not the only one sickened by this scenario as I’m sure that there are hundreds of others who feel the same way—disheartened, sad, and despondent. Perhaps, we could only ask—if the elders had known that welcoming Rick Warren’s [Community Church] pattern for the New Testament church would effect the church havoc that occurred a few years ago, would they have implemented Warren’s methodology for “church growth” anyway?

The best we can do, I believe, is pray continually for the unity of His body and for the church elders to be given the wisdom in their decision-making processes and the proper understanding that God’s directives for the church are not to be tampered with … that they consult God and His truth for guidance and answers—not rely on their own understanding.

Also, there are excellent threads on this forum that contain messages and articles written by John Waddey, editor of Christianity-Then-and-Now. One thread that comes to mind is—A NEW BIG PICTURE: “THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING! THE CHANGE AGENTS ARE COMING!”

Not the least, let other members of the church be concerned members also. Share ConcernedMembers with your brothers and sisters in Christ.

Again, thanks!

Donnie</font>
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Amazed
Amazed

January 23rd, 2007, 8:10 pm #46

don,
I am sorry for you, man. I know that helpless feeling. It's like when you lean too far back in a chair. You know you're going to fall, and it happens so slowly, but ultimately, there's nothing you can do about it.

You told Vince Young (didn't know he was a C of C'er): "I wish I could help you understand that this website’s objective is to inform and warn others of the pitfalls and dangers that a church might expect when it is intruded upon and division ensues, and then acquisition is imminent."
You are FINALLY right about one thing. It is imminent. I asked this before, and never got an answer, so I'll try again.

This websites purpose is to warn people about the mythical "change agents", blah... blah... blah... so they can DO what? What are they supposed to do with your warning? don, they have three options:
1.) Love God and Love others. This means not only accepting, but embracing new ways to communicate the message of Jesus Christ
2.) They could leave their congregation, and find another that suits THEM (it is always about ME ME ME)
3.) They can, as you have so effectively modeled for us, stay at their congregation, living in sin by rebelling against the elders of that church.

If people don't like change, they can express that. If they are in a majority, and have weak leadership, that church will stay the same.
If they don't, they can leave. What's happening more and more, is people threatening to leave, thinking leadership will cower to their ego-fed threats. ("After all, what WOULD this church do without ME?"). But they are finding it falling on deaf ears. Leaving is the only thing they can DO about it. Their dwindling numbers can keep meeting together, and not changing.

So keep your "warnings" coming. They have been very effective slowing down the change, as evidenced by the numerous posts on this site detailing how the "change movement" is flourishing.






======================

<font color=red size=3 face=times new roman>Here's the portion (my original response to Vince) that is being removed -- not to be confused as part of Amazed's post above:
  • --------------------

    It appears that you don’t take problems and issues that confront and divide certain congregations that seriously. I wish I could help you understand that this website’s objective is to inform and warn others of the pitfalls and dangers that a church might expect when it is intruded upon and division ensues, and then acquisition is imminent.

    Of course, we know that Christians . . .

    --------------------
Thanks</font>
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on January 24th, 2007, 2:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 24th, 2007, 2:30 am #47

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Amazed,

Here’s to explain that the bottom part of your post has been removed. That part was actually my response to Vince. I think that you were using it for reference only while you were creating your post and that you had intended to remove it after completing your post.

Actually, I’m not here to contemplate Vince’s membership. I don’t know that he is or that he isn’t a member of the church that you have left. I’d give him the benefit. But in your case and based on your messages, I think that you have left the church; but feel free to correct me if I have misstated that.

I think you keep recycling your same arguments and opposition to the church that you criticize, despise, deride and left.

Donnie</font>
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Amazed
Amazed

January 24th, 2007, 3:38 pm #48


OOPS! Yeah, I cut/pasted your post to reference, and forgot to delete it before I sent it in.

I've told you many times that I have been freed from C of C legalism for about 5 years now. I do not attend a C of C anymore. Alot of the reason is because of what I am experiencing here. They spit out "doctrine" as fact, but when you ask them for an explanation, it's so shallow, that they have none. Instead of admitting that, they get mad and call names, etc...

It's largely a case of idol worship. Instead of doing what God says, and treating people the way He commands, it is far more important not to disappoint grandparents, parents, siblings, ministers, or friends. They worship man's opinion more than God, and as He says, "Worship ME only." They live in ignorance rather than being brave/smart enough to expect answers to legitimate questions.

By the way, are you the pot or the kettle here? Recycling answers???? You write the same thing over and over and over. You don't even recycle your answers, you just have one, and it's starting to stink. I think it's rotten. You might want to get a new one.

Seriously though, I'd appreciate a sincere effort from you to answer this. According to you, this site exists to "warn" people. O.K. They got your warning. Now, what are they supposed to DO about it????

Don't come with all your "stand strong in the truth" and "defend the faith" cliches. Give us something practical. Not an ideal, but an action. What can people DO besides leave a church????









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Servant
Servant

January 24th, 2007, 8:57 pm #49

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Amazed,

Here’s to explain that the bottom part of your post has been removed. That part was actually my response to Vince. I think that you were using it for reference only while you were creating your post and that you had intended to remove it after completing your post.

Actually, I’m not here to contemplate Vince’s membership. I don’t know that he is or that he isn’t a member of the church that you have left. I’d give him the benefit. But in your case and based on your messages, I think that you have left the church; but feel free to correct me if I have misstated that.

I think you keep recycling your same arguments and opposition to the church that you criticize, despise, deride and left.

Donnie</font>
Please feel free to edit my post also....
Donnie, if Amazing has left the church of Christ, then maybe you should follow likewise example.
I builid up the church of Christ while you slam it!
Why do you continue to stay at Madison when you are content with negatively condeming the worship service, the elders, the praise team, the praise team leaders, the extracurricular activites, etc (I could name more Donnie).
Do you realize that God will NOT allow you to coninue on this road of destruction. He will have His Way...and He will have His Way with you.
God is proud of what Jesus did with the Kingdom, even if you are not. He will ultimately protect it from individuals such as you.
If you believe nothing else Donnie, BELIEVE that!!!
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

January 27th, 2007, 11:25 pm #50

OOPS! Yeah, I cut/pasted your post to reference, and forgot to delete it before I sent it in.

I've told you many times that I have been freed from C of C legalism for about 5 years now. I do not attend a C of C anymore. Alot of the reason is because of what I am experiencing here. They spit out "doctrine" as fact, but when you ask them for an explanation, it's so shallow, that they have none. Instead of admitting that, they get mad and call names, etc...

It's largely a case of idol worship. Instead of doing what God says, and treating people the way He commands, it is far more important not to disappoint grandparents, parents, siblings, ministers, or friends. They worship man's opinion more than God, and as He says, "Worship ME only." They live in ignorance rather than being brave/smart enough to expect answers to legitimate questions.

By the way, are you the pot or the kettle here? Recycling answers???? You write the same thing over and over and over. You don't even recycle your answers, you just have one, and it's starting to stink. I think it's rotten. You might want to get a new one.

Seriously though, I'd appreciate a sincere effort from you to answer this. According to you, this site exists to "warn" people. O.K. They got your warning. Now, what are they supposed to DO about it????

Don't come with all your "stand strong in the truth" and "defend the faith" cliches. Give us something practical. Not an ideal, but an action. What can people DO besides leave a church????








<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Roger,

Did you mean to say, “I am no longer a member of the church of Jesus Christ”? You see, even in secular terms, no one says—“I do not attend an American Red Cross.” But we get your point. If you are no longer a member of the church you left, you haven’t told us how and where you transferred your membership to. It would seem that naturally, if something else is better than something, one would be proud of mentioning the “something else.” So, why are you ashamed to tell us what is better than the one you left?

If your new church [the one you found that is better] spits out the right “doctrine” and that you and your fellow members DO NOT worship “man’s opinion,” again, would you tell us what is this new church? Would you tell us your comparative analysis of the differences in beliefs and teachings? As well as which church offers a “shallow” explanation? You know, there is no credence in your own opinion until you spit out real proofs and evidences to support your acquired or borrowed doctrine.

I’m really not expecting you to accept my only “ONE” and “stinking” answer. You are far gone and beyond “the river of no return.”

Speaking of this site “warning” other congregations, especially un-infiltrated ones as yet, that all depends on the wisdom of the leadership of which I have no control. By the same token, what do you expect when you proudly say you have left the church [without specifying whereto]? Well, that would depend on how grounded in the truth the individual is.

You’ve expressed yourself freely here. That is good. That is fair. That is one good way that the reader can gauge the veracity of your acquired teachings. After all, the church, as well as the Scripture, cannot be blamed [and no one should] by the individual who chooses to deride and speak against it and rejoice over his actions.

Donnie</font>
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