Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

October 10th, 2006, 7:59 am #21

<font size=3 face=times new roman>February 2001

Most Madison Church of Christ members were oblivious to this article, “More Holyroller Influence at Madison” in the February "Plumbline Newsletter" which quotes the "Madison Marcher.”
  • The third worship service at Madison is to be held at the same time as the 10:30 a.m. worship. The "atmosphere will be more conducive to non-Christians. Many “unchurched” people are intimidated by a more formal atmosphere...." The worship affair will be an effort "...to make it easier for people with no church background to feel comfortable.... More time will be given to singing and communion... The sermons will not be as long as what we are used to. There is no question that God is working among our church family. He recognized our suppressed capacity to love…. Attendance for this first Sunday was 538 souls." Jim Hinkle said, "We will not be still, we will not be quiet."
February 2001

The elders announced that a "Third Contemporary" service that they had previously formed was going to be melted into the 10:00 a.m. or second service.
  • This announcement established a "contemporary service" at 10:00 AM and the 8:00 AM service remained unchanged. While making this announcement, Elder Buck Dozier said the Fire Marshal’s office had said there were too many people in the third service for the size of the auditorium. Since Buck is the past Fire Chief, one has to wonder if this was just a staged excuse to proceed with what was already planned.
February 25, 2001

Tom Haddon is instructing his "Homebuilders" class on how to transition the church members over to the ways of the Saddleback Community Church and that of "Holy Entertainment." He talks about the well laid plans that only a few know about. See the transcript of February 25th class.

March 2001

Praise teams, hand clapping, and raised hands during prayer have been introduced at the second service. Children’s Sunday school has been changed from Bible-based to more entertainment and singing. Young women teaching Sunday school to baptized young men.

April 13, 2001

The elders respond to a NewsChannel5 report about growing controversy at the Madison Church of Christ. They send out a LETTER to 683 Churches of Christ in the Channel 5 viewing area.
  • "The controversy seems to be over-reaction to change. The main things we have done in the 10:30 service are introduce more upbeat praise songs, give less time to the sermon, and give greater emphasis to the Lord's Supper. This embraces a more contemporary format, of course, but we don't feel that it departs from scriptural worship."

    See ConcernedMembers’ Letter to the Elders of 683 Churches of Christ.
April 22, 2001

In this meeting on April 22, 2001 the deacons ask the elders, “What is going on?” On May 02,2001 the Elders reply in a letter. Here Are the Questions and the Elders’ Answers

May 2001

Concerned members receive a copy of a rough draft of a "Covenant of Membership" that was supposedly written by Elder Buck Dozier. Mr. Dozier admitted "playing" around with one when contacted.
  • The concern about a "Covenant of Membership" is that it's one of the hallmark signs of a "Community Church" like Saddleback. They are generally written in such a way to assure that the membership can't take over the "community church" like they took over your church.
July 2001

According to THIS ARTICLE in the Tennessean, the elders bring in a mediator (Larry Sullivan) to help with the split within the church. We understand that Buck Dozier met Mr. Sullivan while attending a "seminar." Meetings are set up for the elders—we understand they had to swear to secrecy. Meetings are set up for the members to discuss their objections to the split contemporary and traditional services.

It's later shown by the ConcernedMembers that LARRY SULLIVAN is not an unbiased mediator. He has direct ties to the Saddleback organization. He is trained in using the HEGELIAN DIALECTIC techniques to compromise a groups consensus in whatever direction is predetermined.

Mid-August, 2001

By this time many members have left the Church. The unpaid volunteer minister on this particular Sunday abruptly left before giving his sermon at the second service. He was allowed only the last 6 minutes of worship time by the “worship leader.” Sometime during this period, Buck Dozier appeared in Bill Ruhl's adult class to take over. Bill Ruhl's absence was unexplained to the class.

August 29, 2001

Concerned members send out 2500 ballots and a LETTER asking for church members to indicate on the ballot the type of church service format they wanted. All ballots were to be received by September 20, 2001. Threatening phone calls are received by the contractor hired by ConcernedMembers to do the mailing (August 30, 2001). Other notes not full of brotherly love are received by mail. Ballots from ConcernedMembers mailing are tabulated, and totals posted along with a FINAL REPORT (September 15, 2001)

September 23, 2001

The members have been waiting on an announcement from the elders regarding the future format of services at the Madison Church of Christ. Today (09-23-01) that announcement was made.
  • EVERYTHING WILL REMAIN AS IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 30, 2001 (Sunday)

Larry Sullivan was Guest Speaker! (The Unbiased Mediator)

October 11, 2001 (Thursday)

Deacons had a special meeting with an attendance of over 100 concerned members and deacons. Petitions were given out to collect signatures—to dismiss “the elders that have split the Madison Church of Christ.” Petitions are due to be turned in by Wednesday the 17th.

October 14, 2001 (Sunday)

Frank Scott delivered his first in a series of talking head animated and canned sermons. Sometime during this period, two elders resigned—J.D. Elliott and Bobby McElhiney.

October 17, 2001 (Wednesday)

A member reported that Wednesday night when she inquired at the help desk as to where she should turn in her petitions, she was told by the lady: "Over there with the trouble makers … they are the mafia." Sometime during this period two more elders talked about resigning! No confirmation of that as of today.

October 21, 2001 (Sunday)

Sermon—Second in a three-part series of Frank Scott being a talking head for a canned and animated sermon on joy and entertainment. The words "corporate worship" and joy and entertainment were used extensively. Interesting!

Deacons—The deacons, headed by Ben Jones, nicely and in a very godly way asked the leaders to step down and let the church elect new leadership. (Complete transcript is available.)

October 24, 2001 (Wednesday)

”Elders and Deacons” meeting tonight! We understand that the 7 or 8 elders that have caused a split at Madison Church of Christ have been formally asked to step down or be disfellowshipped.

October 25, 2001 (Thursday)

”Saddleback Planters” meeting tonight! Talked about rebuking Ben Jones Sunday!
  • To rebuke is to criticize or reprove sharply; to reprimand.
    To reprove is to criticize for a fault or misdeed; to scold.
    To rebuke or reprove Ben Jones, then, Ben Jones must have done a misdeed.
    To define that misdeed, those who will rebuke him must find applicable scriptures.
What Ben did was to give each and every Madison Church of Christ member an opportunity to ask for forgiveness or repentance for causing division or for allowing division to occur.

October 26, 2001 (Friday)
  • Flash message coming in the next 72 hours from the ConcernedMembers!
October 28, 2001 (Sunday)

T H E...M A D I S O N...C H U R C H...O F...C H R I S T...H A S...B E E N...H I J A C K E D ! !

Today, according to an announcement made by everyone's favorite elder, Russ Kersten, the church has been hijacked by all the concerned members, deacons and I guess that includes the 5 elders that have been holding out against them. … Is “hijack” a chargeable offense in the church?

October 29, 2001 (Monday)

We received a copy of a letter sent to the deacons. And we felt compelled to reply. ConcernedMembers announced future plans (10/30/01). The server for this web page has recorded 22,645 page views since its creation 8 weeks ago (11/1/01).

November 2, 2001

Transcript of Homebuilders Sunday School class—a recording of Tom Haddon on how to transition the congregation to Saddleback and Holy Entertainment in Homebuilders Class (available under Interviews & Transcripts).

November 4, 2001

J.R. Compton and wife, members at Madison Church of Christ for 58 years, came before congregation to ask for forgiveness and ask to have their names removed as members.

November 7, 2001

Interview with Gary McDade of the Getwell Church of Christ in Memphis, TN. Discussion concerning the takeover of churches by the "Community Church" movement and the embracement of this movement by many of the Christian colleges.

November 9, 2001

Two different sources say Bruce White has been hired as a new minister.

November 20, 2001

ConcernedMembers retract a letter sent by the elders to 683 churches of Christ.

November 21, 2001

Email from J.E. Choate—“And also another personal evaluation is that Buck Dozier should be the first to leave the Madison eldership. His qualifications for the work is moot at best. His past shows that he is no stranger to igniting church fires with no solutions."

November 28, 2001 December 02, 2001

Bruce White appears to have been warmly welcomed as new minister at the Madison Church of Christ. First sermon was about the degrees of love. It appears that the “Praise Team” and their microphones have been turned off in the second service for the time being.

December 18, 2001

Fundraising letter sent out by the Church. Student ministry letter to former members (12/19/01).

January 20, 2002 (Sunday)

Rumor says there is a new group forming called "The PeaceMakers." Their training is probably coming from PEPPERDINE.

January 21, 2002 (Monday)

Letter sent by Donnie Cruz to the elders and other people about the crisis at Madison. The Christian Chronicle publishes article about Madison Church of Christ (01/21/02).

February 4, 2002 (Monday)

We understand that Buck has presented the members of “The Peacemakers" with a list of 192 reasons churches split. We wonder if pagan worship practices were on the list?

February 6, 2002 (Wednesday)

Big flare-up at church Wednesday night. We understand 4 or 5 of the good and godly elders have resigned, leaving the church under the control of the clapper and Saddleback crowd.

February 9, 2002 (Saturday)

After the resignation of two elders last year, Madison Church of Christ was left with 13 elders: Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, John Broadway, Joe Corley, Buck Dozier, Chris Gingles, Howard Henderson, Tommy Hoppes, Russ Kersten, Charles Link, Ken Rice, Norman Slate, Ray Wilson. Five of these elders had been opposed to the "praise teams" and clapping which had permeated the second service since last February 2001. This was when Elder Buck Dozier first announced the decision to turn the new third service loose on the second service. The five elders that were opposed we believe were: Joe Corley, Bill Bennett, Dale Bishop, Norman Slate, and Charles Link.

It's understood Tom Haddon and about 200 of his followers threatened to leave sometime ago when the praise teams were stopped. It's understood that Chris Gingles encouraged them to stay and fight it out. Recently the Haddon followers put the push back on to bring back the praise teams, through the elders they control. It's understood that the elders had become rather hostile toward each other, and when this push came again, then 4 of the 5 elders resigned. Charles Link was out of town, and it is assumed he will resign when he returns.

Quote as told to Bobby M. Johnson by one of the elders: "... told me that there had been a recent meeting of the 10:30 AM crowd including Chris Gingles’ and Tom Haddon's followers and they said they would never leave. So that with the push to return to the praise teams and the microphones was the “last straw."

The 5 elders had already decided to resign if the “winds of change” didn't subside. So that's that! 3 of these elders also announced that they would probably be attending church at other locations sometime in the future. [No one here blames them, and we can only try to imagine the pain they have been put through. We are sure that like many of us they were unable to continue to worship in that building.]
  • HAS GOD LEFT THE BUILDING?

    ConcernedMembers announce statewide newspaper advertising campaign
February 10, 2002 (Sunday)
  • Sunday Services reviewed by Donnie Cruz [see earlier “Timeline”]
February 11, 2002 (Monday)

We at ConcernedMembers have been told that when the 4 elders resigned, that they were assured that their letter would be read to the congregation. Well, as you are probably aware ... not only did their letter not get read, there was also no mention of their resignation, other than a little blip in the Marcher. We have been promised a copy of this letter, and we intend to post it on the web as soon as we get it up.
  • The Elders’ Resignation Letter Is Here [see earlier “Timeline”]
February 2-17, 2002
  • Announcement by the Elders [see earlier “Timeline”]
March 1, 2002

The Trap Has Been Set at the Madison Church of Christ [see earlier “Timeline”]

In the February 20, 2002 Madison Marcher, statement made by the elders February 17, 2002:
  • 4. "We believe that there can be unity in diversity and will continue to employ two styles of worship services."
March 10, 2002 (Sunday)

Screen presentation of the elders [6 have already resigned] and their length of service helps Donnie Cruz to figure it out:
  • <font face=courier>(1) John Broadway ...... since 1998
    (2) Buck Dozier ........ since 1996
    (3) Chris Gingles ...... since 1998
    (4) Howard Henderson ... since 1999
    (5) Tommy Hoppes ....... since 1999
    (6) Russ Kersten ....... since 1992
    (7) Charles Link ....... since 1978
    (8) Ken Rice ........... since 1989
    (9) Ray Wilson ......... since 1992</font>

    (Most of the Remaining Elders Are ... That Explains It! [see earlier “Timeline”])
March 24, 2002 (Sunday)

Charismatic Contemporary Style Continues: March 24, 2002 [see earlier “Timeline”]
  • I don’t believe it is all right to be singing “It’s All Right” when the church is not united in spirit because of what this worship facilitation program has done to begin with. It is NOT ALL RIGHT when the body of Christ is suffering….
March 31, 2002
  • SUNDAY SERVICES—“Easter"

    Notes from the “Madison Marcher” (Wednesday, March 27, 2002):

    Bruce White: “We are going to have a great day next Sunday. It is Easter, and we [are] looking for a large crowd. I especially want to see the children in the colorful clothes.” Of the “Great Day in May” (May 5): “… will have a big lunch under the tent at 12:00. One of our choruses will entertain at 1:30.”
May 19-26, 2002; June 2, 2002
  • Changes Continue At Madison [see earlier Timeline]

    (1) the present deacons will be interviewed by the elders and new deacons will be named; (2) there will be additional elders to be selected; (3), the "love feast" -- and it's only "fitting" -- is to follow the Lord's Supper; (4) Canaan's Land is moving; (5) the "praise team" will be reinstated in the early part of July.
June 23, 2002 (Sunday)
  • ELDER CHARLES LINK RESIGNS, and more!
August 1, 2002
  • Is There a Tithing Pledge in Madison's Future? Donnie Cruz reports, there could be!
September 1, 2002 (Sunday)
  • Small Groups, Living Stones, or Prayer Circles?
October 27, 2002
  • TITHING NT Christians for Services of the OT Levitical Priests

    We are continuing to monitor the progress of the tithing campaign at Madison as taught by Dr. White, based on the tithing manual (“Take God at His Word”) written by Dr. Kregg Hood. Is the truth about tithing (equals 10%) continuing to be perverted as a CARRY-OVER and as a PERPETUAL command from the Old Testament for New Testament Christians? Since Dr. White proclaimed his message in August 2002 that we TITHE to TEST God and to let Him give the increase, we will be referring to the following amounts collected as being “TITHED”:

    <font face=courier>==================================================================
    Church Budget ----------------- 47,143 (2001) ---- 38,000 (2002)
    Children’s Home ---------------- 5,400 (2001) ----- 4,021 (2002)
    Amazing Grace/CPI -------------- 3,000 (2001) ----- 1,539 (2002)
    ==================================================================
    TOTAL BUDGET---- -------------- 55,543 (2001) ---- 43,560 (2002)
    ==================================================================
    ------------- (Sermons on “TITHING” in August 2002) ------------</font>
November 7, 2002
  • Transcription of Bruce White's Sermon on Tithing [see earlier Timeline]

    VOTE:
    Would you be willing to sign a Tithing Pledge?
    Would you be willing to sign a Church Oath or Covenant?
January 5, 2003 (Sunday)

DRAMA MINISTRY KICKOFF JANUARY 19 (by Kelley Hughes, Madison Marcher)
  • Drama is nothing new at Madison Church of Christ. From the Summer Spectaculars to Canaan’s Land … we have a long and great tradition of using drama to touch the lives of our members and visitors…. So Jesus himself used A TYPE OF THEATRE to help get his point across…. You may know of someone who is “UNCHURCHED” … The Drama Ministry kickoff meeting will be on January 19 at 5 p.m. in the Fellowship Hall.
April 13, 2003 (Sunday)

EASTER SUNDAY IN “CANAAN’S LAND” (Madison Marcher: April 9, 2003)
  • Easter Sunday is very special to all of us. For the last ten years in Canaan’s Land, we’ve used our time together on that Sunday to reenact the last week in the life of Jesus…. Responsibilities will range from … to dressing kids to assisting at the various story “sets” (e.g., HELPING SERVE CHILDREN BREAD AND GRAPE JUICE DURING THE LAST SUPPER [emphasis, d.c.]). All of us will celebrate Communion together as we reenact the LORD sharing it with His apostles and telling them its meaning.
(On May 19, 2003, Chris: “I received a copy of the CD that has the worship service from "Easter" on it. It was given to me by a member of the production crew there. … Was there any preaching? Or just reading?” Jeremy responded: “I do agree with what has been said about the Easter service. It definitely was a show. And most of the people I've talked to about that service say the same thing….”

May 12, 2003 (Monday)

Madison Church of Christ, Incorporated: ONE YEAR LATER
  • Annual Membership Meeting (Madison Marcher, Vol. 52, No. 19, May 7, 2003):

    Because Madison Church of Christ is now incorporated, we are required to have an annual membership meeting. This meeting will be on Wednesday, June 4, 2003, at 6 p.m. in the Auditorium for the transaction of such business as may come before the meeting.
June 4, 2003

Madison Marcher (6/4/03) announces: “Broadway Resigns From Eldership.” Ken Rice, May Chairman of the Eldership, said, “It is with great regret that we have received the resignation of John Broadway. Here is his statement:”
  • After much prayer and deliberation over the past several weeks, I have decided to submit my resignation from the eldership of the Madison Church of Christ….
June 19, 2003

A comparative analysis of statistics from the 2003 publication of “Churches of Christ in the United States,” compiled by Mac Lynn. The counts, based on the reported numbers in 2002, consist of: (1) membership [assumedly “baptized” believers], (2) average worship attendance, (3) adherents [including children?]. Please notice MCC’s staggering data.
  • <font face=courier>---------------------------------------- Members/Attendance/Adherents
    Goodlettsville Church of Christ ---------- 490 ----- 685 ----- 770
    Hendersonville Church of Christ --------- 1557 ---- 1323 ---- 2105
    Woodmont Hills Church of Christ(*)------- 1660 ---- 2300 ---- 2500
    Madison Church of Christ ---------------- 3142 ---- 1786 ---- 4730
    Richland Hills Church of Christ, TX ----- 4450 ---- 3700 ---- 5240

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    (*) Not listed as “Woodmont Hills Family of God” in the directory
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~</font>
July 23, 2003

Madison Marcher: “We are expanding the leadership of this great church.
  • Terry Ashley,
    Mark Street,
    Phil Coats
are being added to the eldership today. We are so pleased to see this number grow and expect to be able to service more effectively with these men in place.”

August 6, 2003

Madison Marcher: “The Madison Church of Christ has always had a heart for children and will continue to respond to, assist, and nurture children. We have our camp, youth activities, classes, and other programs for children … Morning Star Sanctuary…. So, we need to support all of these activities through our Sunday School Contribution. The Childcare program … however, will be closed. The State of Tennessee Children’s Services has altered the approach to childcare….”

August 13, 2003

Madison Marcher: “The shepherds are planning a new vision for Madison. They will be listening for awhile and then formulating what the Spirit leads them to envision for this church. Your prayers are earnestly solicited.”

September 3, 2003
  • Madison Marcher: “We want to encourage both 8:00 and 10:30 services. You will see the designation “traditional” and “contemporary” on our sign and in publication to inform the community of a choice. We hope that both times will see increase in attendance and involvement.” . . . “CALLING ALL SINGERS! The Worship and Music ministry is looking for additional singers. We are especially in need of male singers….” [also appeared in the next 2 weeks].
September 17, 2003
  • Madison Marcher: “Check your Saturday newspaper and find our new advertisement! . . . ||EVERY SUNDAY||--||Traditional Worship 8:00 am||--||Sunday School 9:30 am||--||Contemporary Worship 10:30 am||--||Evening Worship 6:00 pm|| . . . ||Pulpit Minister, Dr. C. Bruce White||--||Worship Minister, Keith Lancaster||”
September 28, 2003

The message on this Sunday was “Worthy of Double Honor.” It had been announced: “We are planning a very special day on September 28. We will be honoring our shepherds that day.” Former elders (J.D. Elliott, Bobby McElhiney, Charles Link, etc., with their wives) were honored first; current elders, with their wives, were also honored.

October 8, 2003
  • Madison Marcher: “Please pray for our shepherds. These men are going through some very trying meetings right now. The future of this congregation is weighing heavy on their hearts as they seek the Spirit’s guidance. They need your support and encouragement.”
December 15, 2003
  • A special e-mail has been received: “<font color=indigo>… I am troubled by the innovations, because they seem mostly to lean toward entertainment and behavior that I grew up associating with Pentecostal orgiastic ‘worship services.’ I quit going to Tulsa due to this. ...” </font>
December 17, 2003
  • Madison Marcher: “Keith Lancaster will be taking a sabbatical from Madison for the next several months to spend more time with Acappella. We wish him well and look forward to his return!”
February 4, 2004

Madison Marcher: “A WORD FROM THE SHEPHERDS”
  • Shepherds’ Vision 2004: The shepherds have spent the last several months focusing on prayer and preparation of a course for the church family at Madison. … We will maintain a traditional worship style in our 8:00 service on Sunday morning and a contemporary style of worship at 10:30. We are interested in accommodating a worship style which connects the worshipper with the Creator … The elders have implemented a functional change in their roles as shepherds. An Elders Administrative Committee composed of … and Buck Dozier, in conjunction with the Business Manager, will handle day-to-day administrative details. The remaining elders will give their “attention to prayer and the ministry of the Word.” The goal of the elders is to “smell like sheep.” … The Deacons Administrative Committee….

    We will be searching for a pulpit minister, as Dr. White enters partial retirement. He will continue to work on staff in other ministries. We look for a long relationship with him and Judy.

    We will be looking for anew youth minister to lead our program of developing our young people into leaders for tomorrow.
February 18, 2004

“A Little Flavor of Rick Warren’s Saddleback Community Church-ism”—the following was advertised in the Madison Marcher:
  • 27th Ladies Renewal (April 16th-17th, 2004) in Cadiz, KY—

    Come share the Love of Our Lord and your sisters in Christ.
    ”The Purpose Driven Life”
    We will use the book by Rick Warren as we study God’s Word
March 10, 2004
  • Interactive EASTER drama worship—Dr. White announces change in schedule: The drama presentation on “Easter Sunday” will no longer be an event in the “traditional” worship—it will be performed only during the “contemporary” worship.
March 23, 2004
  • Announcement on the Church Sign: <font color=blue>WORSHIP WITH US EASTER APRIL 11, 8 & 10:30 A.M. … EASTER PASSION WORSHIP DRAMA AT 10:30 A.M. </font>
  • Easter Worship Drama (Madison Marcher, March 17, 2004). “ . . . <font color=indigo>Easter Sunday [emphasis here and elsewhere, dc] is always a special time at Madison—but this year, April 11th is going to be unlike any worship experience we’ve ever shared together. During our 10:30 service [wonder why not at 8:00 am, dc], the story of Christ’s last hours—culminating in His Crucifixion and Resurrection—will be presented in the form of an interactive worship drama.

    Everyone is encouraged to attend this special time of worship
    </font>
April 5, 2004
  • FRONT PAGE re “EASTER SUNDAY PASSION DRAMA”: (MADISON MARCHER, March 31, 2004). “ . . . <font color=indigo>Experience much of the excitement next week as our Easter Sunday Passion Drama plays out at the 10:30 service [wonder why not at 8:00 am, dc] . . . We’ll join Jesus and His apostles in the upper room where we, as a congregation, will celebrate the Lord’s Supper. … This promises to be a very moving, powerful retelling of the Easter Story….”

    Calendar: April 11 (Sunday—Easter) … Easter Worship Drama … 10:30 a.m.— ”The story of Christ’s last hours culminating in His Crucifixion and Resurrection will be presented in the form of an interactive worship drama.
    </font>
April 12, 2004

Jim Morris, who began serving as an elder at the same time with Pat Burch and Marty Rothschild in September, 2002, made the following announcement in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 53, No. 13, April 7, 2004), “Statement to Madison Church:” This is not the time for me to serve this body as an elder.

The Preacher Potpourri column in the Madison Marcher has announced the following (4.21.04): “We are adding more elders. We want you to submit names to help in the process. Think through your selections, write his name or names on a piece of paper, and share it with one of our shepherds.”

June 9, 2004
  • Russ Kersten retires from eldership (Madison Marcher reports).
June 16, 2004
  • Ray Wilson retires from eldership (Madison Marcher reports).

    There were 15 elders at the end of September 2001—10 of whom have resigned since. Is this report . . . troubling?
    <font face=courier>
    J.D. Elliott ----------- resigned 10/2001
    Bobby McElhiney -------- resigned 10/2001
    Joe Corley ------------- resigned 02/2002
    Bill Bennett ----------- resigned 02/2002
    Dale Bishop ------------ resigned 02/2002
    Norman Slate ----------- resigned 02/2002
    Charles Link ----------- resigned 06/2002 (… served since 1978)
    John Broadway ---------- resigned 06/2003 (… served since 1998)
    Ray Wilson ------------- resigned 06/2004 (… served since 1992)
    Russ Kersten ----------- resigned 06/2004 (… served since 1992)

    Ken Rice --------------- has served since ---1989
    Buck Dozier ------------ has served since ---1996
    Chris Gingles ---------- has served since ---1998
    Howard Henderson ------- has served since ---1999
    Tommy Hoppes ----------- has served since ---1999

    Jim Morris ------------- resigned 04/2004 (… served since 09/2002)
    Pat Burch -------------- has served since 09/2002
    Marty Rothschild ------- has served since 09/2002
    Terry Ashley ----------- has served since 07/2003
    Phil Coats ------------- has served since 07/2003
    Mark Street ------------ has served since 07/2003</font>
July 7, 2004
  • “From the Madison Search Committee” (Madison Marcher)

    “Several months ago … two groups appointed by the elders began praying and working toward the goals of hiring new pulpit and youth ministers. [Both committees included an elder liaison, other men as well as women in each.] … Pray that God … will make His will obvious, and that He will bless Tory’s efforts as he seeks out new opportunities [really?]. …

    “As announced, our new pulpit minister (once hired) will enjoy a period of transition with Bruce and be fully in place by the end of the year. Our new youth minister will join our existing ministry team and assume Tory’s responsibilities—also by year end.” [cf. thread on Tory Tredway]
July 14, 2004
  • Madison Marcher’s special report that “Keith Lancaster returns from sabbatical

    “The Madison family would like to welcome back Keith Lancaster as worship leader. Keith has been on sabbatical, producing two new albums for The Acappella Company. … In addition to working on the new albums, Keith attended the Pepperdine Lectureship in California and led worship at events in Texas…. ‘It is so great to be back with everyone at Madison,’ Keith said. ‘I really missed leading worship here.’

    “Keith will teach a number of new songs in the upcoming weeks, primarily in Homebuilders class on Sunday mornings and Prayer & Praise class on Wednesday nights.

    “Madison is very fortunate to have men who are able to lead worship and not just lead songs. …Lipscomb University now offers a worship ministry major, showing the growth of this trend among Churches of Christ
August 11, 2004
  • In “Devoted: Come to the Table” (Madison Marcher, August 11, 2004), it is explained that the “last quarter of 2004 will be devoted to communion and table fellowship” … “each family is encouraged to purchase a copy of Come to the Table, by John Mark Hicks….”

    In “Come to the Table” (by Dawn Ferguson) …
    • Beginning September 26, Haddon will be sharing the premises behind Hicks’ book with his class as other teachers are also doing throughout the church. To help with the “revisioning” of the Lord’s Supper, … “Janelle is painting two images for the class that will be before us the entire six weeks we’ll be discussing communion,” said Haddon. “One will be the table. The other will be the altar. She’ll be depicting the things we think of when we think of altar – sacrifice, blood, etc. For the table, she’ll be painting Adam and Eve in the garden in the presence of God – before sin separated them from God.”

      Haddon has asked Wells to paint during each class. “Kathy and I are still discussing and praying about what that painting will be,” said Haddon. “Hopefully, it will bring about the overall sense of hope and joy that Hicks believes is symbolized by the table of fellowship.” “… The living host is present at the table eating and drinking with his disciples. … The table on that first Easter, on that first Sunday, was a table of joy and celebration. There was no solemnity, sadness or burdened hearts.” ( Come to the Table, pg. 87)
    [“Come to the Table” (“Revisioning” the Lord’s Supper) authored by John Mark Hicks is taught at Madison.]
August 18, 2004
  • “Madison Has Two New Elders” (Madison Marcher). See the June 16, 2004 list, plus:

    <font face=courier>John Hagan ------------- appointed August 2004
    Jim Wilson ------------- appointed August 2004 </font>
October 6, 2004
  • In “Phil Barnes/Pulpit MinisterFrom the Elders (Madison Marcher):

    “Before his start date of November 1 [2004] , we would like to share some of our thoughts regarding Phil [Barnes]. … Phil Barnes is that man. We believe he is a God-lead choice whose strengths closely match the needs of Madison….”
October 27, 2004
  • In “Madison’s newest praise team joins active ministry” (Madison Marcher):

    “The praise teams at Madison have been blessed … the Gold Team emerges as Madison’s newest praise team….”
November 17, 2004
  • The Madison Marcher declares “White Sock Sunday (a.k.a. ‘Sock It Away Campaign’) Success.” In addition to the “regular” contribution, the financial campaign contribution toward “Debt Retirement” was $304,664.67….
December 1, 2004
  • This month was highlighted by “Your Holiday Events” (Madison Marcher, 11.24.2004) with activities as: “Christmas of Hope” (12/2) benefiting the Morning Star Sanctuary; “Breakfast with Santa” (12/4, Sat.) in the Church Mall [$4 for adults, $2 for ages 3-11]; “A S’mores Christmas Party (12/4, Sat.)—“Parents Night Out—Kids Night of Fun”; “Singles’ Christmas Party” (12/2, Sat., 7-9 p.m., $15 per person at…)—‘Bring a wrapped Christmas ornament to play {Dirty Santa}’; “CHRISTMAS SINGING” (12/19, Sunday at 6 p.m., Bixler Chapel)—‘Start your holiday week with this inspiring service

    The new pulpit minister, Phil Barnes, addresses his affinity for Christmas: “‘Merry Christmas’ has been replaced with ‘Happy Holidays.’ … It’s so easy to walk right past the manger with our arms full of gifts, isn’t it? … But … the one God sent to all of us wrapped in cloth and lying in a manger … Jesus Christ is Born!” [on December 25]

    “What Is The Drama Ministry (cf. Madison Marcher, 12.1.2004). “The goal of the drama ministry is to give glory to God through the use of drama declaring, illustrating and clarifying Biblical truth [emph., d.c.]…” using I Corinthians 9:22 [becoming “all things to all men”]; I Peter 4:10-11 [“whatever gift”]; Eph. 6:19-20 [“make known the mystery of the gospel”].

    Sounds like misuse of the scriptures. The other “minister(s)” would have been closer to the truth had they quoted one of their own chief ministering change agents:
    • <font color=blue size=3 face=Times New Roman> “Drama works because we KNOW that it ISN'T TRUE. IF the word entertainment does mean to DIVERT one’s attention, to cause to be pleasurable, to cause to be interesting, then that is what we're here to do.”</font>
January 16, 2005
  • Beginning this Sunday and the following, Phil Barnes, as a strong advocate of the Community Church/Change Movement, delivers sermons such as: “Is This All There Is to It?”; “Shattering the Shackles”; “Remove the Chains”; etc. These are favorite agenda among change movers. See “Timeline, Part VIII” for details.
January 26, 2005
  • Beginning this issue of the Madison Marcher, Keith Lancaster, the Musical Worship Leader, writes a series of articles on musical worship: (1) “Worship: It’s All About You, God!” [Notice how he “personally” addresses our heavenly Father—a semblance of “Hey, Man!”]; (2) “Worship: Our Great Heritage of Singing” [What heritage?]; (3) “Worship: God-Centered Singing” [What about Worship-Leader-Praise-Team-Centered Holy Entertainment at the Worship Center?]. See “Timeline, Part VIII” for details.
February 16, 2005
  • The “INTERACTIVE EASTER WORSHIP DRAMA” all over again!!! “This year on Saturday, March 26th at 7 p.m. and again on Easter Sunday during our 10:30 a.m. worship service, we will be celebrating the Easter Story together in an interactive worship drama … attend these special times of worship … when we will celebrate the Lord’s Supper … no … Canaan’s Land … during the Easter Morning worship service.” [This was brought up in “Timeline, Part VIII” for discussion … but unfortunately diverted into other irrelevant topics.]
March 17, 2005
  • A review of an article, “Phil Barnes/Pulpit Minister,” in the Madison Marcher (Vol. 53, No. 39, Oct. 6, 2004) reveals the obvious path that the church leaders are treading. “The elders composed a list of 15 … matching … characteristics necessary [for] … that man … to carry Madison forward….” What qualifications? <font color=indigo>“… Sensitive to traditional/contemporary services … Relevant to today’s environment … Team oriented—gets along well with others … People person … Motivator/promoter [of change, d.c.]….”</font> One very keen observer noted the list as being “Bible-starved
March 27, 2005
  • The contemporary assembly at 10:30 a.m. was entertained with the performance of the “Interactive Easter Worship Drama,” but the 8:00 a.m. assembly was “deprived” of the Easter festival [thank you!!!] Note that some of the elders actually participated in the “Worship Drama.” Was “worship” interactive? There was virtually no congregational participation. All the intervening music during the drama was performed by the “worship leader” [in a “priestly” white robe] and his minstrels. However, the audience participated in the long applause at the conclusion of the worship drama.
April 10, 2005
  • There was the “combined worship service” at 10:00 on this “Madison Family Day.” The “worship leader,” and his Praise Team and handclappers were in their best behavior. The atmosphere was reverential; the Praise Team members had to hide their microphones; the other cheerleaders proved that the clapping hands have no vocal cords. Congregational singing was evident on this day.

    Well, unfortunately, all of that was only transient. On the Sunday following, of course, the “charismatic” behavior of some and the concert-like environment did quickly return. (Please read the article in Part IX titled “The Sunday I Was at the ‘Christian’ Rock Concert.”)
May 18, 2005
  • Announcement of “New Adult Sunday School Classes Beginning in June” including:
  • (a) HomeBuilders [popular among denominations] now called LifeBuilders with both men and women teachers [
    — …
    — Terry & Susie Ashley
    — Rob Wells and Leanne Shelby (female Youth Minister)
    — …
    — Madison’s Praise Team (male and female choir members)];
  • (b) Single Mothers Class; and
  • (c) Serving Singles.
June 1, 2005
  • Again, a repeat in 2005 of Rick Warren’s “church growth” scheme’s special feature—incorporating. Announcement—“NOTICE TO ALL MADISON CHURCH OF CHRIST MEMBERS: We will have our annual corporation meeting on Wednesday, June 1, 2005 at 6 p.m. in the Main Auditorium. Buck Dozier will be conducting the meeting”
June 8, 2005
  • Kay Nickell writes in “Remembering Dad” about Russ Kersten, elder, and his illness and death.
June 29 2005
  • In the preceding Timeline thread (#10), someone was asking about Keith Hall, the male “Youth Minister”—and Tory Tredway’s replacement. Many people have wondered to this day how and why Tory lost his job. [Hush, Tory wasn’t the singy-clappy charismatic kind of guy. Young … but he did not meet the “contemporary” standards.] There are a few posts in the thread about “Tory Tredway.” Check the Page 1 Index for this thread last-dated March 4, 2005.
August 10, 2005
  • “David Billingsley and Steve Smith … were ordained as Elders on August 7, 2005” [Marcher, 8.10.05]. “Marty Rothschild has been assigned to work with Steve as his mentoring Elder” [Marcher, 8.17.05].
August 17, 2005
  • In “To the Elders and Members of Madison Church of Christ,” Howard Henderson writes—“I indicated to the Elders at our Spring Rereat that upon the installation of any additional shepherds, I would be bowing out of this role.” [Marcher]
September 7, 2005
  • “Madison Welcomes New Lipscomb President, Randy Lowry”—“… will be preaching … on September 25th … founder of the nationally-recognized Straus Institute for Dispute Resolution and was a professor of law at Pepperdine University in Malibu, California.”
September 14, 2005
  • Phil Barnes writes re: the Hurricane Katrina relief efforts—“In consultation and agreement with the elders, I committed our congregation to provide a week of relief help for the Red Cross Shelter that is being established at Two Rivers Baptist Church.” [Marcher]
October 26, 2005
  • Preparing for the Christmas Drama—“A Christian Carol.” “As Phil announced … we will be doing a full-length Christmas play this year. The dates for the production will be December 17th and 18th (Saturday and Sunday) at 7:00 p.m. each night. The play is an adaptation of the Dickens classic “A Christmas Carol” which we are calling “A Christian Carol.” Why are we doing a Christmas drama? … Using drama, we can break down defenses and are often able to get people to come to a performance [emph. d.c.] who might be intimidated by a regular church service…. If it is God’s purpose to use this drama to reach the unchurched in our community, Satan will try to put obstacles in our path. … Once again, we ask that each of you be praying over this play….”
January 25, 2006
  • Financial Report of the Saints’ Collection (cf. Marcher)

    <font face=courier>Expenditures:
    --- Personnel Wages -------- 865,688,66
    --- ------ Benefits -------- 167,308.31
    --- ------ Counseling ------- 42,398.00
    --- ===================================
    --- Wages & Benefits ----- 1,075,394.97 = (36.51% of Receipts)
    --- Benevolence ------------ 124,191.07 = (04.22%)

    2006 Wish List: New Church Sign ----- 55,000.00
    --- Media: Video Projector ----------- 8,000.00
    --- --------- Time Base Corrector –--- 2,000.00
    --- --------- Projection Switcher --- 20,000.00
    --- --------- Pro Tools Software –--- 12,000.00</font>
March 26, 2006
  • Job Announcement—“… That growth has led us to a wonderful opportunity that your Shepherds are excited to share with you. It has been decided to add a new position to our Ministry Team, an Associate Minister of Community and Family Development. This crucial role will primarily deal with coordinating our volunteers in our many ministries, coordinating our efforts to assimilate new members, and coordinating our Small Group ministry. … As a family of believers, your Shepherds ask you to agree to pray for this decision and this process, and that God will send us the man He has already chosen.”
Is the above announcement of a job for “just the right man” [not “woman”—this has been verified ] one more indication of how an incorporated church operates and functions? It’s been about three months. Perhaps missed … please notify us if God has sent “the man He has already chosen.”
</font>
_______________________________________

Quoting Phil Sanders:
  • <font color=blue size=3 face=Times New Roman> “Entertainment settings should not be regarded as periods of worship. … There is no harm in clapping with appreciation for the entertainer, but clapping in worship seems to take the focus off of God and put it on the performer. To be caught up in the skill of a performer and to lose sight of God dilutes and cheapens worship. The rock star status accorded to some entertainers has little place next to the cross. In worship the focus must be on praising God, not the skills of men. Worship put on for show is clearly condemned in Scripture (Matt. 6:1-18; 23:5-12). … The recent blurrings of these distinctions [between entertainment and worship], coupled with the exposure to so many denominational worship services on television, services which feature professional performers, has created the confusion.” </font>
_______________________________________

<font size=3 face=times new roman>NOTE: Prior posts to this thread have been archived here. This is done to keep the loading time down and to ensure that all messages in the thread can be viewed. Thanks.
</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Nothing against contemporary songs that will someday become traditional hymns, but in the last couple of Sundays, the early assembly at 8 o’clock sang only 2 hymns vs. 5 quite-carefully-chosen contemporary praise songs on October 1; 4 hymns along with 4 quite carefully chosen praise songs from the “notebook” on October 8…. This is the methodology of incremental or smooth transitioning—the ultimate objective being that at some point, especially when the senior saints are no longer a pain or an obstruction, the transformation will have been successfully completed.

On the other hand, on one Sunday, the 10:15—11:45 a.m. “contemporary worship” guide listed 12 contemporary musical pieces—without a single hymn—these were from notebook #180, notebook #181, notebook #98, notebook #101, notebook #168, notebook #25, notebook #38, notebook #119, notebook #54, notebook #66, notebook #134, and notebook #179. Note that there was not a single hymn sung—isn’t that the trend that hymns are bound for extinction at Madison? Thanks to Madison’s full-time professional “ministry” staff—the “Worship Leader.”

On Sunday following, the “contemporary worship” guide listed 10 all-contemporary musical pieces—again, without a singly hymn—these were from notebook #160, notebook #32, notebook #202, notebook #153, notebook #110, notebook #100, notebook 187, notebook #170, notebook #26, and notebook #106. Note that there was not a single hymn sung—isn’t that the trend … that hymns are bound for extinction at Madison? Thanks to Madison’s full-time professional “ministry” staff—the “Worship Leader.” The list of praise songs and choruses was shorter this time due to the “World Christian Broadcasting” presentation. But I must let you know that two notable “praise” songs were:

<ol>[*]“Clap Your Hands”—an action song, of course. “Clap your hands [clap-clap] all ye people, shout to God [clap-clap-clap] with a voice of triumph. Clap your hands [clap-clap-clap] ….”

[*]“I Was Made for This”—guess what? “Oh, I was made for this: to know Your tender kiss, to know a love divine, to know this love is mine, and I was made to laugh… My feet were made to dance … You give me more and more, for I was made for You… When I was far away, You ran to welcome me. I felt Your warm embrace… Oh, I as made for this. I was made to love You Jesus. I was made for this….”

[/list]Lest I forget, I must tell you that the congregation has several men who are capable of leading singing, and it could very well save the saints’ financial contribution. The church can properly and wisely use the money for scriptural purposes and reasons—instead of paying a full-time professional musician, who already has a flourishing “Christian” music business [IOW, “in the name of religion”] of his own.

I wish I had the answer to the following question(s): Since Kevin Dunnebacke and Mark Spears—very talented as well—led singing on separate Sundays in the absence of the “Worship Leader,” were they paid for their services also? If not, why not? If so, did Keith Lancaster refuse payment for those two weeks [of “arm wagging”] he didn’t do when he was absent and gone, perhaps, to get paid for his tours and concerts?

BTW, the Acappella News has recently listed the following events:
  • 10/7/2006: Cuyahoga Falls, OH
    Venue: First United Methodist Church
    245 Portage Trail … Time: 7:00:00 PM … Contact Info: …
  • 10/21/2006: Phoenix, AZ
    Venue: Church of the Nations
    11640 N. 19th Avenue … Time: 7:00:00 PM
    Event Info: Phoenix Rescue Mission Benefit Concert … Contact Info: …
I may be doing some advertising here … or investigating? Anyway, it is not a secret—visit the Worship Leader’s http://www.acappella.org/.

“The Acappella Company Moves — After 24 years, Acappella’s home base of operations has moved from Paris to Nashville, Tennessee, providing many new opportunities for the guys. Having the group and the studio closer to their producer, Keith Lancaster has allowed for more creative time in the studio between the producer and the group.”

It looks like the staff infection is spreading—not the gospel of Christ.

Donnie</font>
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Roger Bradley
Roger Bradley

October 10th, 2006, 8:27 pm #22

So let me get this straight. According to your last post, Madison is sinning because they don't sing hymns, but instead, sing songs YOU don't like? And Acapeela moving from Paris to Nashville is wrong because?????

You, however will continue to handle it like the upstanding Christian man you are. Just as Jesus would: Calling them names, discrediting their ministry, judging them, and telling lies about them, as well as putting on display your clear ignorance of a full-time ministry, and the concept of salary.

My question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

October 11th, 2006, 2:57 am #23

Not even Jesus modelled COMMAND AUTHORITY and he outlawed it for the APOSTLES. How do elders suddenly get this AUTHORITY over NOT-CHURCH activities.

Elders are RECOGNIZED but not ELECTED because they "are already laboring to the point of exhaustion in preaching and teaching." Since there is NO ROLE called PREACHER we understand Paul in Ephesians 4 to define the evangelist with a GO button and the elders as the sole PASTOR-TEACHERS. Double honor means an HONORARIUM but not a salary.

Beginning as the "church in the wilderness" the synagogue had the role of READING, and REHEARSING the WORD while they RESTED from the laded burden of a collection plate and STAFF INFECTION.

Jesus exampled and proved the READING of the synagogue, the word EKKLESIA means synagogue means "school of the Bible." Paul directly commanded NOT pleasuring which is the antics of the CROOKED generation FROM WHOM Jesus died to free us. To those "competent to teach one another" was added and observed for hundreds of years JUST the Lord's Supper. Singing was an apostasy about c. 400 and preaching came about then. "Moses was PREACHED in the synagogue every Sabbath BEING READ."

The SOLE authority of the elder is to "teach that WHICH HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and the Sabbath--meaning REST which is ANTI-worship--outlawed SPEAKING YOUR OWN WORDS. If the elder is not qualified by HIS OWN HOLY SPIRIT meaning "holding the mysteries of the faith in a clear conscience" then he is NOT qualified in any sense. PEER bonding DOETH NOT AN ELDER MAKE but a WOLF. A wolf is a pervert who allows the CYNICS to enter into the FOLD and howl their attracting songs.

There is NO preacher in a TRUE synagogue of Christ.

Therefore, NO elder has the authority to hire a HIRELING.

Preaching is NOT permitted in the "synagogue" which had no praise service. Therefore, NO praise LEADER which is the most ancient, legalistic superstition know in Cave Man 101aaa.

There is NO Law of giving so if the elders are doing PSYCHOLOGICAL VIOLENCE by using the LAW OF TITHING as at MAD or the LAW OF GIVING then they are NOT ethically or morally BISHOPS who FEED the word--only.

Jesus exampled and Paul commanded THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN or SCRIPTURE for songs and sermons: if they have a HIRELING who composes his own SCRIPTURE then he qualifies as both a SCRIBE and PHARISEE.

Jesus used prophecy to tell us that the HYPOCRITES are performance speakers, singers and musicians. In Revelation John calls them SORCERERS: they are DECEIVING the World even as the SERPENT as a "musical enchanter" wholly seduced Eve.

Therefore, the ELDERS have TAKEN CAPTIVE a group of people and have no more AUTHORITY than anyone who boasts about INFILTRATING and DIVERTING to "turn this into a Theater for Holy Entertainment."

So, YOUR psychological violence will not work because Jesus died to save us FROM that CROOKED generation where CROOKED identifies the "skolion" singers. Remember that Paul said, according to the literature, "Don't get PIPED down or FLUTED down" by the skolion singers known today as the NEW WINESKINERS. Then you SPEAK that which is written.

The RESTORATION meaning according to the Campbell's is just what I have said and further that NO leaders have the authority to ADD the spiritual anxiety of DEBT.

Remember, that Paul said LAY a weekly sum BY YOURSELF for the ONE TIME GIVING only to the DESTITUTE and only if you were WILLING. That means that the ELDERS have no more FUNDING than the Mafia to exercise authority OVER the fleeced lambs.

So, wise up and get yourself an honest job.
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Nadab
Nadab

October 11th, 2006, 6:23 am #24

This dicussion is getting interesting (finally). Excuse Sublett for the lie-filled interuption Donnie, as you were saying?????


Roger's question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.

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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

October 11th, 2006, 8:23 am #25

So let me get this straight. According to your last post, Madison is sinning because they don't sing hymns, but instead, sing songs YOU don't like? And Acapeela moving from Paris to Nashville is wrong because?????

You, however will continue to handle it like the upstanding Christian man you are. Just as Jesus would: Calling them names, discrediting their ministry, judging them, and telling lies about them, as well as putting on display your clear ignorance of a full-time ministry, and the concept of salary.

My question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Roger,

I don’t think you’re being fair by saying that “Madison is sinning…” according to my last post. In all of the posts I’ve written, I have never made such a declaration or even an implication. Be careful … I still attend Madison, and there are still many fine Christian folks who are members there. Please don’t blame the congregation, however it is led or misled.

I haven’t said that ALL contemporary musical pieces are evil or that I dislike. But I’ll admit it … that I do like some of the 7-11 [repeat 7 words 11 times ] rah-rah-rah choruses—only if I participated in rallies or campfires for seniors or in sport and other social events. I did list “Clap Your Hands” and “Oh, I was made for this: to know Your tender kiss…,” didn’t I? What a way to demonstrate awe and reverence for our Father in heaven with programmed, rhythmic clapping. What a way to translate the Savior’s agape love and suffering and death on the cross into some erotic praise music!!!

In fact, I mentioned at the outset that there will be some contemporary songs with scriptural messages that are or will and should become hymns that speak the words of Christ or that teach and admonish one another. And I am not talking about “Christian Rock and Rap” musical pieces that only the Praise Team members are capable of singing—but not the congregation.

Did I say that the Acappella company MOVING from Paris to Nashville is wrong? I was just informing. Obviously, you misunderstood the “religious” implication associated with this “business” organization—yeah, you know, that money-making venture in the name of Christianity? A cappella singing that’s combined with unintelligible human sounds that simulate musical instruments anyway? Besides, did you not see the venues: First United Methodist Church and Church of the Nations?

Oh, calling names … discrediting their ministry … judging them … telling lies about them … my clear ignorance of a full-time ministry and the concept of salary—you say?

Well, let me briefly say the following: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it; (2) spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry; (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge; (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie; (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry; (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.

And … “the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church,” you say? Hmmm! I do not recall mentioning the elders.

What about, instead, letting the scriptures define or identify for us who the elders are and their functions. Eph. 4:11-12 clearly states that “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,” he “gave some, [1] apostles; and some, [2] prophets; and some, [3] evangelists; and some, [4] pastors and teachers

Let’s be clear here that the expression “pastors and teachers” in Ephesians 4 is used singly—the elders are teachers—not separately. Titus 1:9 confirms this truth—“Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers…” Also, I Timothy 3:2 states that a bishop must be “apt to teach.” I know you are familiar with the other qualifications of the elders of the church. But the key point is that the elders have a colossal responsibility to be faithful to the word and doctrine so that the congregation is not misled. Disagreeing with the elders, especially when they have succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members, is not rebelling against the Chief Shepherd.

Roger, I would urge you to re-read the post and try to understand what God’s purpose or directive for His church really is. Wouldn’t you question why 75% of the assembly period is being devoted to “musical worship”? Maybe, I’m being overly simplistic, but I just cannot envision the first century church (as in Acts 20:7) having a “Worship Leader” and a group of musicians, the “Praise Team,” performing to or for the saints in Jerusalem or Ephesus, etc.

Donnie</font>
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

October 11th, 2006, 1:23 pm #26

This dicussion is getting interesting (finally). Excuse Sublett for the lie-filled interuption Donnie, as you were saying?????


Roger's question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.
It would be a mistake to believe that just because a man becomes an elder, he also becomes infallible and can never do any wrong or never lead the Church in the wrong direction. Such fallacious thinking would be similar to that which surrounds the pope in the Roman Catholic Church. The New Testament does admonish us not to rebuke elders in general; however, since they are not infallible, the NT also makes provision for dealing with those elders who err:

"Rebuke not an elder, but intreat him as a father; and the younger men as brethren" (1 Tim. 5:1 KJV).

"Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality" (1Tim. 5:19-21 KJV).


All members of the Church are accountable to the tenets of Christ. And since elders and other officers of the Church are to set examples for all, they are especially accountable. If elders waver from the path of Christ as outlined in the New Testament, it is the duty of the congregation to take them to task for it and rebuke them before the congregation, according to the New Testament.

Elders who incorporate into worship services the look and feel of performing arts centers, the look and feel of carnival side shows, and the look and feel of the Broadway stage indeed make the Church more like the world. Because such elders defy Romans 12:2, James 4:4, and 1 John 2:15-17 (KJV), they are not fit to hold this office and should be removed unless they repent and turn back to the path of Christ.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

October 11th, 2006, 2:47 pm #27

This dicussion is getting interesting (finally). Excuse Sublett for the lie-filled interuption Donnie, as you were saying?????


Roger's question is, where in scripture do you get the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church?

It's a simple question that requires a simple answer. One word, with a couple of numbers after it. (Book, chapter and verse- you know the concept well, because you ask for it all the time). Can you answer this? Truthfully, I mean.
Nablab, I have asserted and can prove that the CORRUPTED word means to SELL AT RETAIL and TO BE AN ADULTERER.

I can prove that there is no INSTITUTE over which elders can RULE: you remember that Shepherds go OUT and collect lost sheep: he has no authority to ENTERTAIN THE GOATS and HIRE the wolves.

Unless you and Roger can PROVE what kind of AUTHORITY they have which CANNOT BE QUESTIONED then and only then can you prove that questioning the self- or peer- selected bonded buddies is NOT TO BE TOLERATED! Heil?

I just don't want the huge number of daily readers to MISS the point that the INSTITUTE is jointly-held and usually coerced into joining property. The monies which go into the member-owned INSTITUTE do not belong to the elders usually led by ONE dominant Alpha Male. I think that Fiduciary Malfeasance could be proved in court: and thank God the CIVIL authorities are loosing their mideaval fear of the NEO-PAPACY. For MOST of the lower income people the STATE with a standard deduction has already swiped the TAX EXEMPT thingy right out from under their noses. That does not prevent the SCAM artists from using the "YOU CAN SAVE MONEY BY GIVING IT TO ME"

Nablab, if you are feeding your face from the Widow's Purse then you are TERMINAL: defending "music"according to the Bible and The Book of Enoch is the MARK that you have fallen and CANNOT get back up.

I just want people to know that you call ABSOLUTE TRUTH a LIE but you cannot DISPROVE a single one. Let the watching world read how NaBlab will defend the Law of Fleecing Honest Workers out of their children's food money.

Let you or Roger-Dodger tell them how "You must not ENTREAT an elder who says GET OVER IT" when you know from Genesis to Revelation and ALL recorded history that they are just feeding the face of the Rich and Famous by the lie of THE LAW OF GIVING and THE LAW OF TITHING. Babble 101aaa knows that suggesting TITHING is robbery and running roughshod back beyond the Cross.
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Roger Bradley
Roger Bradley

October 11th, 2006, 7:41 pm #28

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Roger,

I don’t think you’re being fair by saying that “Madison is sinning…” according to my last post. In all of the posts I’ve written, I have never made such a declaration or even an implication. Be careful … I still attend Madison, and there are still many fine Christian folks who are members there. Please don’t blame the congregation, however it is led or misled.

I haven’t said that ALL contemporary musical pieces are evil or that I dislike. But I’ll admit it … that I do like some of the 7-11 [repeat 7 words 11 times ] rah-rah-rah choruses—only if I participated in rallies or campfires for seniors or in sport and other social events. I did list “Clap Your Hands” and “Oh, I was made for this: to know Your tender kiss…,” didn’t I? What a way to demonstrate awe and reverence for our Father in heaven with programmed, rhythmic clapping. What a way to translate the Savior’s agape love and suffering and death on the cross into some erotic praise music!!!

In fact, I mentioned at the outset that there will be some contemporary songs with scriptural messages that are or will and should become hymns that speak the words of Christ or that teach and admonish one another. And I am not talking about “Christian Rock and Rap” musical pieces that only the Praise Team members are capable of singing—but not the congregation.

Did I say that the Acappella company MOVING from Paris to Nashville is wrong? I was just informing. Obviously, you misunderstood the “religious” implication associated with this “business” organization—yeah, you know, that money-making venture in the name of Christianity? A cappella singing that’s combined with unintelligible human sounds that simulate musical instruments anyway? Besides, did you not see the venues: First United Methodist Church and Church of the Nations?

Oh, calling names … discrediting their ministry … judging them … telling lies about them … my clear ignorance of a full-time ministry and the concept of salary—you say?

Well, let me briefly say the following: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it; (2) spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry; (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge; (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie; (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry; (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.

And … “the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church,” you say? Hmmm! I do not recall mentioning the elders.

What about, instead, letting the scriptures define or identify for us who the elders are and their functions. Eph. 4:11-12 clearly states that “for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,” he “gave some, [1] apostles; and some, [2] prophets; and some, [3] evangelists; and some, [4] pastors and teachers

Let’s be clear here that the expression “pastors and teachers” in Ephesians 4 is used singly—the elders are teachers—not separately. Titus 1:9 confirms this truth—“Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers…” Also, I Timothy 3:2 states that a bishop must be “apt to teach.” I know you are familiar with the other qualifications of the elders of the church. But the key point is that the elders have a colossal responsibility to be faithful to the word and doctrine so that the congregation is not misled. Disagreeing with the elders, especially when they have succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members, is not rebelling against the Chief Shepherd.

Roger, I would urge you to re-read the post and try to understand what God’s purpose or directive for His church really is. Wouldn’t you question why 75% of the assembly period is being devoted to “musical worship”? Maybe, I’m being overly simplistic, but I just cannot envision the first century church (as in Acts 20:7) having a “Worship Leader” and a group of musicians, the “Praise Team,” performing to or for the saints in Jerusalem or Ephesus, etc.

Donnie</font>
You couldn’t do it, could you? All I asked was, where in scripture does it say that it’s OK for you to rebel against your eldership? All it required was one scripture reference, but that was too much to ask. Oh well, here's my response.

“I don’t think you’re being fair by saying that “Madison is sinning…” according to my last post. In all of the posts I’ve written, I have never made such a declaration or even an implication. Be careful …”

*So, by doing all the horrible things you write about in every post you make, you are not saying they are sinning? So, you admit that what they are doing is NOT wrong. It is just a matter of you not liking it.

SO- that makes you, not a “defender of the faith” as you like to fancy yourself, but really more of a cry baby. I was wondering if you were ever going to admit it. Glad to see you’ve come around.




“I haven’t said that ALL contemporary musical pieces are evil or that I dislike. But I’ll admit it … that I do like some of the 7-11 [repeat 7 words 11 times ] rah-rah-rah choruses—only if I participated in rallies or campfires for seniors or in sport and other social events. I did list “Clap Your Hands” and “Oh, I was made for this: to know Your tender kiss…,” didn’t I? What a way to demonstrate awe and reverence for our Father in heaven with programmed, rhythmic clapping. What a way to translate the Savior’s agape love and suffering and death on the cross into some erotic praise music!!!”

*I don’t understand. You like it or you don’t? You’re saying two different things here. By the way, you’re beginning to sound like Sublett (who, by your own admission is a liar), calling it “erotic” praise music. I would love to hear your reasoning behind that. BUT- if it has anything to do with Zoe, Apollo, whores, flute girls, Pan, or orgies, save it.






“Did I say that the Acappella company MOVING from Paris to Nashville is wrong? I was just informing.”

*Well, let’s see… when you say, “It looks like the staff infection is spreading—not the gospel of Christ.” I’d say that’s a little more than reporting. Quit trying to be all innocent. You’re divisive in the Kingdom, and your actions, thoughts, and writings are contrary to God’s will. Denying it won’t fix it.



“Obviously, you misunderstood the “religious” implication associated with this “business” organization—yeah, you know, that money-making venture in the name of Christianity?”

*There’s nothing wrong with that. If you are Christian, and you have a job, you’re making money in the name of Christ. I detect a hint of jealousy.




“A cappella singing that’s combined with unintelligible human sounds that simulate musical instruments anyway?”

*Your preference of music is boring to some. Remember what Jesus said, “Do unto others…” Would you want someone to talk this way about your preferred style?





“Besides, did you not see the venues: First United Methodist Church and Church of the Nations?”

*So.





“Oh, calling names … discrediting their ministry … judging them … telling lies about them … my clear ignorance of a full-time ministry and the concept of salary—you say?”

*Yes. I do.




“Well, let me briefly say the following: (1) “Worship Leader”—do a Google search on it; (2) spreading the gospel of Christ to the lost is THE ministry; (3) no, not I, but God is the righteous Judge; (4) the “worship” guide, the Marcher, the Acappella newsletter, hopefully, do not lie; (5) I would not classify the Worship Leader’s arm-wagging task a few hours a week as a full-time ministry; (6) it’s worth repeating … that the musical staff’s salary is not warranted by the Holy Scripture and is a total waste of the saints’ contribution intended to help the needy—not company owners.”

*I don’t understand what this paragraph means. It’s a bunch of garbled, unrelated sentence fragments. Could you please re-state the point of it?




“And … “the authorization to rebel against the elders of the church,” you say? Hmmm! I do not recall mentioning the elders.”

*You didn’t mention them in this post, but your actions on this website, and your constant insults and criticism of them and Madison is rebellion.




“What about, instead, letting the scriptures define or identify for us who the elders are and their functions.”

“Disagreeing with the elders, especially when they have succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members, is not rebelling against the Chief Shepherd.”

*First of all, they haven’t “succumbed to cultural and social influences that cause conflicts and discord among the members”. They have made wise, Biblical, Godly decisions, and a small handful of the members like you have rebelled.

Second- Rebelling against the leaders God has put in place, IS rebelling against Him. At least that’s what HE says, whatever that’s worth to you. Look up Korah in your concordance, and read his story. It reminds me a lot of you.



“Roger, I would urge you to re-read the post and try to understand what God’s purpose or directive for His church really is.”

*Boy, you think quite a bit of yourself don’t you? That’s how we find out God’s will, by reading YOUR posts? What we do without you Donnie?




“Wouldn’t you question why 75% of the assembly period is being devoted to “musical worship?”

*No. Music and singing is one of the best ways we know as humans to express worship and love to God. Why WOULDN’T we devote 75% of our service to it? Just how much do you love God? Why wouldn’t you want to show it as much as you can?




“Maybe, I’m being overly simplistic, but I just cannot envision the first century church (as in Acts 20:7) having a “Worship Leader” and a group of musicians, the “Praise Team,” performing to or for the saints in Jerusalem or Ephesus, etc.”

*This is going to come as a surprise to you, but it’s NOT the first century. The “restoration movement” has got it all wrong. We are in no way under any directive to restore the first century church. If we are, we’re doing a horrible job.
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

October 12th, 2006, 3:52 pm #29

Roger missed out on some stuff! When God wants to reveal His Will for people He speaks face to face or mouth to mouth. When Israel fell into musical idolatry God blinded them and turned them over to worship the STARS: one of those stars was Aix or Capella the SHE goat:
  • <font color=blue>Ex.33:11 The LORD would speak to Moses face to face, as a man speaks with his friend. Then Moses would return to the camp, but his young aide Joshua son of Nun did not leave the tent. </font>
After the musical idolatry God BLINDED them (2 Cor 3) and promised ANOTHER prophet and warned HIM YE SHALL HEAR. Now, you remember that all known history knows that Miriam had all of the MARKS (for we literate) of a prophetess OF HATHOR. A "prophetess" sang, danced, beat on instruments and LED the women to ESCAPE from the Song of Moses and they just chanted the WAR line.
  • <font color=blue> Nu.12:8 With him I speak face to face, clearly and not in riddles; he sees the form of the LORD. Why then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moses?" </font>
So it was the FEMALE "musician" who is the PROTOTYPICAL usurping woman in Paul's warning. God struck her with a dose of leprosy something like the promised plagues in Revelation and she evaporates off the scene.
  • <font color=blue>NOW Korah, the son of Izhar, the son of Kohath, the son of Levi, and Dathan and Abiram, the sons of Eliab, and On, the son of Peleth, sons of Reuben, took men: Numbers 16:1

    And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel,

    two hundred and fifty PRINCES of the assembly,
    FAMOUS in the congregation,
    men of RENOWN: Numbers 16:2 </font>
Now, Dodger, this here looks like the JUBILEE to me! You remember that one FAMOUS and RENOWN leader pronounced the WORD sifted of all truth except the KORE gospel of seven facts ABOUT Jesus. He and the PRINCES or PRINCESSES rose up against JESUS and CLAIM that they are to WORK OUT THEIR OWN SALVATION which they TWIST to mean "work out a NEW set of doctrines for the COMMUNE from which "individuals have no right to read, interpret or speak the word OUTSIDE of the COMMUNE reading" which means the new APOSTLE'S misreading.

Now, you remember that the JUBILEE was to RE-distribute the lands, to BLOW LOUD WIND INSTRUMENTS and "Atone for the sins" of the OLDEN church of Christ. They CLAIM in print to have VISIONS and hear AUDIBLE VOICES.
  • <font color=blue> And they GATHERED themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord? Numbers 16:3

    And when Moses heard it, he fell upon his face: Numbers 16:4</font>
This is a long story but Donnie is not one of the famous THOUGHT LEADERS who have risen up against Christ and HIS words. Moses later warned:
  • <font color=blue>For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers (hissers) of times, and unto diviners (singers of magical songs): but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do. Deut 18:14 </font>

    <font color=purple>6049
    1. (Piel) to make appear, produce, bring (clouds)
    2. (Poel) to practise soothsaying, conjure
    1. to observe times, practice soothsaying or spiritism or magic or augury or witchcraft
    2. soothsayer, enchanter, sorceress, diviner, fortuneteller, barbarian, Meonenim (participle) </font>
This means to use RESPONSIVE SINGING to OPPRESSS.

Now, you will remember that John said that the singers, musicians and all ritual STAFF were UNDER (hee haw) the Mother Harlot. John said that they were SORCERERS deceiving the world--AND GETTING PAID TOO. Now, the next MOUT TO MOUTH "Moses" is Lord Jesus Christ and YOU are doing the CORE or KORAH act when you join the Jubilators or "horn blowers."
  • <font color=blue>I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. Deut 18:18

    And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him.Deut 18:19

    But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. Deut 18:20 </font>
Jude warned of the FLAMES when he referred to The Book of Enoch which defines the MUSICIANS as being led by SATAN to deceive the world with music: God will come with a FLAMING FIRE and TOPHETH is specificially prepared for the Babylon Whore and all she can seduce with SORCERY meaning MUSIC:
  • <font color=blue>Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. Jude 3

    For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ORDAINED to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into LASCIVIOUSNESS, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. Jude 4 </font>
So, Rodger, how does it FEEL to know that they are part of the CROOKED generation of vipers John would not baptize, Jesus called SONS of the Devil and SHUT OFF the flow of information using PARABLES or SINGY-SONGS. The crooked generation were SKOLION singers: from the holy tavern as New Wineskinners who tried to get Jesus to bow, sing and dance when they piped.

How does it feel since you are Isaiah 30 literate to know that HELL was prepared SPECIFICIALLY for Lucifer "the singing and harp-playing prostitute" who is called ZOE? All of the Bible treats you as a Cainite or Kenite and literally a SEPARATE SPECIES. l believe TRULY that the world was inhabited by the NACHASH (musical enchanter in the garden) and that their DNA survives.
  • <font color=blue>I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not. Jude 5

    And the angels (messengers) which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6 </font>
After describing these "angels of death" in detail including their connection with Sodom, Jude makes the Core connection:
  • <font color=blue> Woe unto them for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward [PAY], and perished in the gainsaying of Core. Jude 11

    Cain is: Qayin (h7013) kah'-yin; from 6969 in the orig. sense of fixity; a lance (as striking fast): - spear.

    Quwn (h6969) koon; a prim. root; to strike a musical note, i. e. chant or wail (at a funeral): - lament, mourning woman. </font>
I told you that Jesus cast these Musical Minstrels out LIKE DUNG.
  • <font color=blue>Jude 12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead,plucked up by the roots;

    Jude 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

    Jude 14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,

    Jude 15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    Jude 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having mens PERSONS in admiration because of ADVANTATE.

    Jude 17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    Jude 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly LUST. </font>
Here are the mockers or sporters
  • <font color=blue>Empaigma A. jest, mocking, delusion, LXX Is.66.4; magikês empaigmata technês [Magica and Musica have about the same meaning]

    Techn-ê II. an art, craft, to learn a thing professionally, having made a trade of it, the Art of Rhetoric, tricks of Rhetoric,

    Empaizo II. SPORT in or on, hôs nebros chloerais e. leimakos hêdonais E.Ba. 866 (lyr.); tois choroisin e. to sport in the dance, Ar.Th.975; tôi gumnasiôi Luc.Lex.5 .</font>
When they sing, clap and gyrate around they are SPORTING with you: that is why they USE professionals.

So, Roger, there are only TWO face to face speakers FOR God: the Last one WAS God in the flesh, the Holy Spirit or the Mind of Christ. Now, I remember being attacked by people who claim that the elders are CELESTIAL BEINGS. Now, you equate the false TEACHINGS of elders as a FACE TO FACE revelation which SUPERCEDES all of the Bible and all known history which associates MUSICAL religion to pagan WOMEN. We are well informed that when males fell into it they had to be DRUNK or PERVERTS.

A CORRUPTER of the word is an ADULTERER who "sells learning at RETAIL." That is the MARK Music is also the other MARK of the BEAST: In the Gnostic revival ZOE is called the BEAST and "female instructing principle." MUSIC was what silenced the Covenant of Grace delivered by Moses. MUSIC was the prophecies MOCKING Of Jesus Christ. Music is the MARK of the prostitute religion using SORCERERS. And Rodger has SOME motive for trying to destroy those who WARN. Is Roger on the DOLE? That is a MARK.
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Roger Bradley
Roger Bradley

October 13th, 2006, 3:35 am #30


So you start out with a lie-
"Roger missed out on some stuff! When God wants to reveal His Will for people He speaks face to face or mouth to mouth."

Guess that negates the Bible. Why have we wasted our time following it all these years?
All we had to do was ask ken Sublett. He had the answers all along.

I didn't have time to read, much less respond to the rest of your typically way-too-long post, but according to your track record, I'm sure it was full of true, well-thought-out, sane statements.
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