WHAT HAPPENED AT MADISON THIS WEEK—The Timeline (Part XI)

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

August 31st, 2006, 3:54 pm #11

I love to see those who had Bible Ridicule Nadab-Abhiu 101aaa! Only thing is, Paul attended Bible Literate 102 and TRUMPS the preachercators by writing Romans 1 and Hebrews 12 He warned about the MUSICAL IDOLATRY at Mount Sinai in Romans 10 and 1 Cor 10: that's why the hew Je Zeus (hail Zeus) ON THE DOLE preachers hate the "Epistles of the Apostates" in their clear written contempt.

<font color=red>AND Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the Lord, which he commanded them not. Leviticus 10:1</font>

<font color=blue>1 And Nadab H5070 and Abihu H30, the sons H1121 of Aaron H175,
  • took H3947 either H376 of them his censer H4289,
  • and put H5414 fire H784 therein H2004,
  • and put H7760 incense H7004 thereon H5921,
  • and offered H7126 strange H2114 fire H784
  • before H6440 the LORD H3068,
    which H834 he commanded H6680 them not.
</font>They did FIVE THINGS when God had been SILENT. But, what harm did they do? Not a single thing: the lesson was that GOD has the right to COMMAND and if He has not commanded then God is SILENT and if you PRESUME in the face of an infinite God you simply are NOT suitable material to move on to the Spirit World where body worship is not possible. God had NOT commanded incense or anything which Moses and Aaron had NOT ALREADY DONE. Neither was this God's APPROVED SYSTEM OF WORSHIP but was the beginning of the LAW which was ADDED because of MUSICAL IDOLATRY. God NEVER SAID: "Thou shalt not rise up to PLAY in musical idolatry." He had given THE BOOK OF THE COVENANT which did NOT command any form of RITUAL as LEGALISTIC.

Those who quit being driven mad by "sanging" know that God had already turned them over to "worship the starry host" (Acts 7 etal). Now, God turns them over to Azazel which is the Scape Goat by which they actually had to give credit to one of the Fallen Stars or wandering stars. He along with the others personified in the Jubal band were taught how to HANDLE musical instruments meaning "without authority." Eve or Zoe was held to be that TEACHER of bad things. The SHE-GOAT is called NICO (as in NICO or NIKE "winged victory") TRUMPS the LAID Laity! She is the constellation AIX or CAPELLA! WOW. The Judas Goat!

The Qahal or synagogue or church in the wildernes were commanded to REST, READ or REHEARSE the Word which the elders would have in their HOLY SPIRITS. This excluded instruments and "making a joyful noise before the Lord" which was the WARRIORS chant. You remember that Moses identified TRINITY-MUSICAL-IDOLATRY when he said: "IT IS SINGING THAT I HEAR."

Jesus said that worship is in the PLACE of our own SPIRIT. Paul said that they worshipped IN THE SPIRIT as opposed to IN THE FLESH because OUTSIDE there be DOGS. These were the musical wailers called CYNICS who were sending the WOLF signal to try to find a PARTNER for homosexuality. Paul defined the SYNAGOGUE which excludes SELF-PLEASURING which excludes any form of singing. Revelation says that John was IN THE SPIRIT on the Lord's day and not SANGING. Revelation also defines the speakers, singers and musicians of the Harlot Church as SORCERERS. That is why the DOGS and SORCERERS are not and will NEVER enter the kingdom which is spiritual.

Paul DEFINED the synagogue where we are commanded to worship by his ONLY worship word which is to GIVE HEED to the WORD of God "as it is written" meaning "Scripture." He defined and practiced NOTHING else where He assembled or synagogued the group: he did COMMAND the Lord's Supper which Jesus instituted. Singing, Giving, Preaching or LISTENING to sermons were ALL about 400 years to late to be CHRISTIAN: The Catholic Encyclopedia says that they were COMMON TO ALL PAGAN CULTS and so the NON-Christian "bishops" now being paid by the STATE added them.

For Instructions about SPIRITUAL WORSHIP (Which the Temple did not involve) People would wait from Moses to Jesus before God again spoke FACE TO FACE:
  • <font color=blue>See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Heb 12:25

    Whose voice then SHOOK the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet ONCE MORE I shake not the earth only, but also heaven. Heb 12:26

    And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the REMOVING of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken [a trumpet-like word] may remain. Heb 12:27

    Wherefore we RECEIVING a KINGDOM which cannot be moved, let us have GRACE,

    whereby we may SERVE God acceptably with REVERENCE and godly fear: Heb 12:28 </font>

    <font color=red>For our God is a consuming fire. Heb 12:29 </font>
Here Paul points to Nadab and Abihu and in Romans 6 he identifies the PRODUCT of silencing the WORD of God by the use of SINGING which Moses identified as MUSICAL IDOLATRY.

NO ONE can accompany the individual PRIEST come "BOLDLY BEFORE THE THRONE OF GRACE." The TYPE of the Holy Place PROVES that any singer or musician who TRIED to enter into the church as ANTI-TYPE would have been instantly executed. Nay! Not even to clean out GARBAGE in Hezekiah's Plague Stopping sacrifice.
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Ray Pippin
Ray Pippin

September 6th, 2006, 3:07 am #12

<font size=3 color=indigo face=times new roman>Harry,
  • Harry: “Why do you focus so much attention on outward appearences instead of the heart?”

    Answer: I cannot focus on someone else’s heart—I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to do that. It is more likely that outward appearances reveal what’s inside. Have you ever thought of it that way? I’m reminded of Proverbs 23:7—“ For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he

    Moreover, it is the word of God that knows the heart. Heb. 4:12—“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart
  • Harry: “Could it not be that the worship leader and the worship team have a genuine love of the lord.”

    Answer: First, the Scripture does not recognize “the worship leader” nor “the worship team.” Neither do I. Where and how did you arrive at these concepts? Besides, “genuine love of the lord” is not the issue, and it’s not my place to question or prove such.
  • Harry: “Please, I would encourage you to once lift your arms to the Lord (I Tim. 2:8) or close your eyes and sing the praise songs with the congregation.”

    Answer: How can you be sure that I am not too disabled and would be embarrassed to lift my arms in a public gathering? OK … I am not disabled, but I do my arm lifting when I yawn or do my stretching before I retire for the nite-nite. I also perform my arm-lifting exercise in the Sportsplex Gym. That’s where and when I can show off my tiny muscles. I close my eyes to go to sleep [or when the sermonette is a little boring]. I sing “praise” songs when I’m home alone or in private or while I’m driving—and I do not wait until the “showtime” gathering when it turns out to be just that.

    I do sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs—in order to “teach and admonish one another.”
  • Harry: “Don't focus on the externalities of the worship team, but, close your eyes and be enraptured in the Spirit. It is so free and so right if you would give it just one try.”

    Answer: I try not to “focus on the externalities of the worship team [yours or the ‘worship leader’s].” And how are you “enraptured in the Spirit”? And “what” is so free? “And so right,” did you say? Again, I’m reminded of the passage in Proverbs 14:12; 16:25—“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”

    “Give it just one try”—“it” being what?
Donnie</font>
Donnie, you say the Scriptures do not recognize a worship Leader or praise team. I assume you mean by that, the Scripture doen not mention them. I don't know of anyone who would argue that. I find no mention in Scripture of a Song Leader, prayer leader, one person making announcements or a prayer leader at the communion table. What place any of these played in the early church we don't know. Then to what degree should any of these be used in the worship assembly?

I think Paul's instruction would apply here " Let all things be done decently and in order, and to edify. 1Cor.14:26,40.
One song leader, prayer leader or any other leader is worth anything only if it helps the church in its corporate worship. Remember, when we come together as a congregation we are not alone. We are a community. I trust that those who are planning how our time together will be used, take into consideration how each song, prayer, sermon, communion time will bring glory to God;( God must be pleased first), how each person can be encouraged to participate to the fullest degree; (though we worship as a community, God is interested in each Christian's worship) no one can worship for another period. Yes, each person should be able to say, It has been good to be here. A christian should feel good when its all over but that is not the main consideration. We should feel good because we have done what He is pleased with.
When a Song Leader is leading a group of people in singing praises to God he is leading in worship. When a person is leading a group of people in prayer, that person is a worship leader. When someone gives words that help us focus around the Table, that person is leading in worship. When someone leads us in a study of Scripture, that is a worship leader (you may call it what you may).
No Song Leader should lead songs that would lead the congregation in the wrong direction. No one leading a prayer should pray in a way that the congregation cannot follow,(not a time for private prayers), no one serving at the communion table should take the congregation off in a direction other than to focus on the death, burial and resurrection and return of our Savior. The sermon should not be a discourse in pop psychology but directing minds into a serious study of God's revelation to us. Yes, it should be revelant. Preaching to the church in another State or down the street in another building won't help. Its also not a time for the preacher to whip the congregation. The gospel is GOOD NEWS!!!
Every person should ask themselves, am I worshiping God or am I going through the motions. No one can answer for you. God bless............RayPippin
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Ken Subletlt
Ken Subletlt

September 6th, 2006, 2:51 pm #13

The direct command in Romans 15 was against SELF-pleasing. This included anything which would create the "creation of mental excitement." That is the REST Jesus died to give us from the laded burden which was "the creation of spiritual anxiety by religious rituals." The REST of the "church in the wilderness" and the REST word Jesus used means to STOP the singing, playing or any of the religious rituals claiming to bring about a WORSHIP experience.

The synagogue, ekklesia or church was to TEACH the Word. This is in the hands of the elders as the only Pastor-Teachers who must "teach that which has been taught.

Prophesying is TEACHING if you repeat what God has said or Paul has delivered. Paul defined prophesying CONTRARY to the musical prophesying of paganism. One might desire a gift but those are given to certain people. There is no evidence that those still CARNAL had a single supernatural gift. Therefore, they should spend their "warm feeling" on TEACHING which is RATHER or INSTEAD of a gift. Verse one proves that prophesying in the TRUE sense did not require a spiritual gift:
  • <font color=blue>1 Cor. 14:1 FOLLOW after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

    1 Cor. 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

    1 Cor. 14:3 But he that prophesieth SPEAKETH unto men to EDIFICATION, and EXHORTATION, and COMFORT.</font>
That is what Jesus exampled, Paul commanded in Romans 15, what Paul commanded Timothy to do, what Paul did out on mission and what the historic church did before music was added "because it was common to ALL pagan cults."
  • <font color=blue>1 Tim 4:12 Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.

    1 Tim 4:13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. </font>
This fits the synagogue Jesus endorsed which "had no praise service." If you teach that which is written then even in the synagogue a schoolboy might read: the OVERSEER literally looked over his shoulder to make sure that he did not ADD nor SUBTRACT from the text.
  • <font color=blue>For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1 Cor. 14:31</font>
In romans 15 Paul said speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using "that which is written" or "scripture" to EDIFY or educate, and COMFORT through the scriptures. That does not use the "singing" word because ADO is not SANGING but speaking. Others may dialog that and then ANOTHER passage is read and the practice was to LEARN the text and not MUSICATE it to nullify it. That is how Thomas Campbell defined "worship": reading and musing the Word of God. Then, you have no problems with DIVERSITIES which are NOT fodder for consideration says Paul in Romans14.

Tongues were the 70 minor dialects which were more comfortable than Koine which everyone could understand. They should not punish anyone (forbid) but they must be SILENT unless someone can INTERPRET which means from ONE language to ANOTHER:
  • <font color=blue>If any MAN think himself to be a PROPHETS, or spiritual,
    • let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you
      are the commandments of the Lord. 1 Cor. 14:37
    But if any man be IGNORANT, let him be ignorant. 1 Cor. 14:38

    Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy,
    and forbid not to speak with tongues. 1 Cor. 14:39

    Let all things be done decently and in order. 1 Cor. 14:40</font>
Not EVERYTHING was permitted but ONLY to edification which means EDUCATION: that which one does in a BIBLE CLASS which has no preachers (outlawed in the synagogue) and no SINGERS (who would SUGGEST them?) but only explaining whatever is not clear and EXHORTING one another to that portion which has been read.

Gradualism began with "singing" as an act which was added about the time "non-Biblical" texts were written either to PROMOTE or REFUTE false teachings. In the last few years "singing" has devolved to a highly-honed style and content intending to "manipulate" people into a MENTAL STATE they call spiritual. When Moses identified idolatry it was not the legitimate sound of war or rejoicing over the enemy: it is SINGING that I hear. In Revelation 18 which predicts "times such as these" Paul identified all of the religious teknokrats; craftsmen, singers and musicians as practicing SORCERY. All singing words which Paul put down were "pagan prophesying" and are all identified in the Greek texts as practicing, confessed sorcerers. The literates saw the word guitarIST as meaning PARASITE. They were "simulating" the "ascending to bring Christ down or descending to bring Christ back from the dead" which is outlawed.

Sure, you can never pay for the "theaters for holy entertainment" if you RESTORE the "school of the Bible" but then you can buy health insurance for your kids and NOT get "sorcerized" and dissociated mentally by the "sanging thingy" always called sorcery.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 19th, 2006, 7:42 am #14

Donnie, you say the Scriptures do not recognize a worship Leader or praise team. I assume you mean by that, the Scripture doen not mention them. I don't know of anyone who would argue that. I find no mention in Scripture of a Song Leader, prayer leader, one person making announcements or a prayer leader at the communion table. What place any of these played in the early church we don't know. Then to what degree should any of these be used in the worship assembly?

I think Paul's instruction would apply here " Let all things be done decently and in order, and to edify. 1Cor.14:26,40.
One song leader, prayer leader or any other leader is worth anything only if it helps the church in its corporate worship. Remember, when we come together as a congregation we are not alone. We are a community. I trust that those who are planning how our time together will be used, take into consideration how each song, prayer, sermon, communion time will bring glory to God;( God must be pleased first), how each person can be encouraged to participate to the fullest degree; (though we worship as a community, God is interested in each Christian's worship) no one can worship for another period. Yes, each person should be able to say, It has been good to be here. A christian should feel good when its all over but that is not the main consideration. We should feel good because we have done what He is pleased with.
When a Song Leader is leading a group of people in singing praises to God he is leading in worship. When a person is leading a group of people in prayer, that person is a worship leader. When someone gives words that help us focus around the Table, that person is leading in worship. When someone leads us in a study of Scripture, that is a worship leader (you may call it what you may).
No Song Leader should lead songs that would lead the congregation in the wrong direction. No one leading a prayer should pray in a way that the congregation cannot follow,(not a time for private prayers), no one serving at the communion table should take the congregation off in a direction other than to focus on the death, burial and resurrection and return of our Savior. The sermon should not be a discourse in pop psychology but directing minds into a serious study of God's revelation to us. Yes, it should be revelant. Preaching to the church in another State or down the street in another building won't help. Its also not a time for the preacher to whip the congregation. The gospel is GOOD NEWS!!!
Every person should ask themselves, am I worshiping God or am I going through the motions. No one can answer for you. God bless............RayPippin
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Ray,

Thanks for writing. I would agree with much of what you said if we could only envision the simplicity of how the early Christians assembled and for what objectives.

Acts 20:7 simply tells us of the breaking of the bread and the breaking of the bread of life. The epistles tell us of the saints’ collection to help those in need. Singing serves its purpose when we let the word of Christ dwell in us richly and are able to teach and admonish one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs. Songs are not sung to impress and entertain others. It’s all about teach, teach, teach; “learn of me”; and respect for God and honoring Him reverently.

When the “worship program” is made for TV and designed for “'HOLY’ laughter and entertainment,” and involves Charismatic imitation to make it lively and make everyone feel good, then, I shouldn’t be surprised if God would begin to question the professing Christian’s motive. If one should only listen carefully to the words being uttered in singing many of those “praise” songs and choruses. Some of the hidden messages in songs are contrary to the doctrine of Christ and the apostles. Right … “Lord, I love You … You know I love You and I praise You!” Sure, brag about self as if God had to be reminded of what He already knows in one’s heart. When the Bible says, “If ye love me, keep my commandments…”

Is it really that difficult to imagine if the apostles and the early Christians really “enjoyed” their made-for-TV “worship program” with their “Worship Leader” [wonder if it was Moses or Aaron ] leading the apostles with the other saints into God’s holy presence? Wait … it could have been Chenaniah , the master of the song with the singers (I Chronicles 15:27). Were the “Praise Team” members—Heman, Asaph, Ethan, Jeduthun and their children? (I Chron. 15; II Chron. 5). [FYI: “Praise Teams” are a.k.a. “Praise Leaders”—by postmodern church standards, they now include both men and women. Watch it Madison, women praise “leaders” are there to lead.]

Well, reader, please review some of the earlier threads that have exhaustively discussed the man-designated role of the “Worship Leader” and his minstrels, Contemporary Christian Rock Music, rhythmic clapping—all gimmicks that change agents and culture-driven “church growth” proponents use in promoting their schemes.

Ray, did you notice how rowdy the singing and overall atmosphere of the contemporary “assembly” the Sunday before last? Not the fault of the congregants as they’re only influenced by what your “worship leadership” projects. Lots of thunderous rhythmic clapping! Applause! Applause!

I will never forget what Phil Barnes said right before the sermon: “I know that when we get to heaven, it [the singing?] will be just as rowdy!”

What was this “More Holyroller Influence at Madison” that was reported in February 2001 at the top of this thread?

I think I may have attended a “Charismatic worship service.”

Now … is it “Charismatic”? Is it “Community”? Is it “Charismatic Community”?

Whatever!

Donnie</font>
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Joined: February 27th, 2006, 10:01 pm

September 19th, 2006, 9:33 pm #15

<font size=3 color=indigo face=times new roman>Harry,
  • Harry: “Why do you focus so much attention on outward appearences instead of the heart?”

    Answer: I cannot focus on someone else’s heart—I don’t think it’s possible for anyone to do that. It is more likely that outward appearances reveal what’s inside. Have you ever thought of it that way? I’m reminded of Proverbs 23:7—“ For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he

    Moreover, it is the word of God that knows the heart. Heb. 4:12—“For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart
  • Harry: “Could it not be that the worship leader and the worship team have a genuine love of the lord.”

    Answer: First, the Scripture does not recognize “the worship leader” nor “the worship team.” Neither do I. Where and how did you arrive at these concepts? Besides, “genuine love of the lord” is not the issue, and it’s not my place to question or prove such.
  • Harry: “Please, I would encourage you to once lift your arms to the Lord (I Tim. 2:8) or close your eyes and sing the praise songs with the congregation.”

    Answer: How can you be sure that I am not too disabled and would be embarrassed to lift my arms in a public gathering? OK … I am not disabled, but I do my arm lifting when I yawn or do my stretching before I retire for the nite-nite. I also perform my arm-lifting exercise in the Sportsplex Gym. That’s where and when I can show off my tiny muscles. I close my eyes to go to sleep [or when the sermonette is a little boring]. I sing “praise” songs when I’m home alone or in private or while I’m driving—and I do not wait until the “showtime” gathering when it turns out to be just that.

    I do sing psalms and hymns and spiritual songs—in order to “teach and admonish one another.”
  • Harry: “Don't focus on the externalities of the worship team, but, close your eyes and be enraptured in the Spirit. It is so free and so right if you would give it just one try.”

    Answer: I try not to “focus on the externalities of the worship team [yours or the ‘worship leader’s].” And how are you “enraptured in the Spirit”? And “what” is so free? “And so right,” did you say? Again, I’m reminded of the passage in Proverbs 14:12; 16:25—“There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.”

    “Give it just one try”—“it” being what?
Donnie</font>
Bro. Donnie,

I have some questions for you and they are only
meant to have a better understanding of you
perpective and maybe for you to have a better
understanding of my perspective:

1. Do you faithfully attend Madison Church even
to this day or do you contribute to this site
because you have many personal friends that you
want to warn of the 'dangers of a Purpose-Driven
Church'?

2. If you do faithfully attend the Madison Church, is
it all bad or do you still get some spiritual fulfillment
out of the services ?

3. Are you grieved in the heart and spirit frequently or
every day because of what is happening at Madison or
are you able to persevere through this and hope that
things will get back to the way it used to be ?

4. Has being in this situation affected your health,
relationship with family or others ? Has it affected
your personality and how you live on a day to day basis ?

5. Is there any redeeming value in what Madison is doing
today ? Do they still present a gospel message and do
the unchurched hear something that will stir their souls.

6. Be honest. Are there any new songs that you have heard
that you enjoy and make you think about the goodness
of God or some other spititual aspect of life ?
Ex. Shout to the Lord or Shine Jesus Shine. or others.

Please consider these questions.

As another note: why has emotions during worship services
become so wrong. God is the one who created us with these
emotions and I don't think he wants them checked at the
enterance and act like emotionless robots and then leave
the church. He created us to laugh, cry, sing, dance, and
express our insumountable joy in all settings especially
inside the church with authentic purpose. So if the
criticism is clapping, singing, dancing, or whatever;
certainly God wants us to be the humans He made us to be.
Another of the many reasons why I attend the Assemblies of
God is such a reason. I really do wish the people in the
churches of Christ would let loose and express themselves
freely in church.

Thank you,

Harry Smith
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 23rd, 2006, 7:51 pm #16

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Harry,

I think you should know by now where I stand on issues concerning the community/charismatic/church growth and other culture-driven movements that have infected/affected only CERTAIN churches of Christ like Madison, as well as conservative/fundamental/independent Baptist and other churches.

But if you really don’t know, it means that you haven’t paid much attention to what is being discussed here as you are too busy relating to us your experiences as to why you left the church and are now an “Assembly Church of God” denomination follower. Other than that, I’m in excellent health and haven’t wavered from continuing to expose agents and proponents of the aforementioned movements on this site.

The emotional aspects that you speak of have nothing wrong in and of themselves. But when you associate the pop-rock-, concert-, sports-cheerleading-, rhythmic-clapping-, hand-raising-, dancing-or-swaying-to-the-music- and hand-waving-associated behaviors and experiences in the assembly of the saints, that’s when the believer’s intent in being in the gathering of the saints should be in question.

Knowing where our culture and society and the world in general stand in these matters should sufficiently convince the true believer that the transfer of or association with these worldly/secular activities in the assembly for the same objective is apparent. The mature Christian knows it. So, ask the young or not-so-grown-up follower who has been “under-the-influence

We are fully aware that you continue to promote your own church’s “Happy Hour” event in churches of Christ. Frankly, that’s not going to be accepted by the congregation that is truly grounded in the truth. Only a deluded congregation would go along with your “happy hour” scheme, and it might as well change its affiliation to that of your denomination—end of story.

I think that you should conserve your energy and effort in the church you are affiliated with. You are not the answer to what goes on at Madison.

Donnie</font>
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Nadab
Nadab

September 24th, 2006, 9:32 pm #17

<font color=black face=arial><font color=blue>Nadab,</font>

I think you should know by now where I stand on issues concerning the community/charismatic/church growth and other culture-driven movements that have <font color=blue>improved</font>/affected only CERTAIN churches of Christ like Madison, as well as conservative/fundamental/independent Baptist and other churches.

But if you really don’t know, it means that you haven’t paid much attention to what is being discussed here as you are too busy relating to us your experiences as to why you <font color=blue>won't leave the church and now have moe authority than all the elders combined</font>. Other than that, I’m in excellent health and haven’t wavered from continuing to <font color=blue>encourage change</font> agents and proponents of the aforementioned movements on this site.

The emotional aspects that you speak of have nothing wrong in and of themselves. But when you associate the pop-rock-, concert-, sports-cheerleading-, rhythmic-clapping-, hand-raising-, dancing-or-swaying-to-the-music- and hand-waving-associated behaviors and experiences in the assembly of the saints, that’s when the believer’s intent in being in the gathering of the saints <font color=blue>begins to really please God</font>.

Knowing where our culture and society and the world in general stand in these matters should sufficiently convince the true believer that the transfer of or association with these worldly/secular activities in the assembly for the same objective is <font color=blue>required</font>. The mature Christian knows it. So, ask the young or not-so-grown-up follower who has been “under-the-influence” <font color=blue>of the Holy Spirit- if you know what that means. (see Acts) </font>


We are fully aware that you continue to <font color=blue>rebel against</font> your own church’s “Happy Hour” event in churches of Christ. Frankly, that’s not going to be accepted by the congregation that is truly grounded in the truth. Only a deluded congregation would go along with your “<font color=blue>rebel and divide</font>” scheme, and it might as well change its affiliation to that of your denomination <font color=blue>of choice</font>—end of story.

I think that you should conserve your energy and effort in the church you are affiliated with. You are not the answer to what goes on at Madison.

<font color=blue>Nadab</font></font>
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on September 27th, 2006, 6:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 27th, 2006, 6:10 am #18

<font size=4 color=red face=times new roman>Dear Reader,

In case you’re wondering or confused, the phrases and expressions that Nadab changed in my response to Harry are <font color=blue>in blue and bolded</font>. I also think that Nadab’s intent was to address his post to me—not to himself.

[No, Nadab, I’m not going to accuse you of plagiarism. But I think that readers are really interested in your own refutation … expressed in your own words.]

Donnie</font>
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Nadab
Nadab

September 29th, 2006, 4:24 am #19

Donnie-
I did in fact intend to address that post to you. I accidentally put my own name there. You got the point though. Good job.

You can accuse me of plagarism. That's what it was. It's just that you did such a good job referring to yourself, that I couldn't pass it up. I found that by changing a few choice words, it fit you perfectly.

Do you really think the readers are interested in my opinion in my own words?
O.K.- here it is: Based on your writings on this website, you need to find a new congregation to worship at. You shame Jesus and His church by slandering and causing division in the church you still claim to be a member of.

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Donnie Cruz
Donnie Cruz

September 30th, 2006, 11:33 pm #20

<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Harry,

I think you should know by now where I stand on issues concerning the community/charismatic/church growth and other culture-driven movements that have infected/affected only CERTAIN churches of Christ like Madison, as well as conservative/fundamental/independent Baptist and other churches.

But if you really don’t know, it means that you haven’t paid much attention to what is being discussed here as you are too busy relating to us your experiences as to why you left the church and are now an “Assembly Church of God” denomination follower. Other than that, I’m in excellent health and haven’t wavered from continuing to expose agents and proponents of the aforementioned movements on this site.

The emotional aspects that you speak of have nothing wrong in and of themselves. But when you associate the pop-rock-, concert-, sports-cheerleading-, rhythmic-clapping-, hand-raising-, dancing-or-swaying-to-the-music- and hand-waving-associated behaviors and experiences in the assembly of the saints, that’s when the believer’s intent in being in the gathering of the saints should be in question.

Knowing where our culture and society and the world in general stand in these matters should sufficiently convince the true believer that the transfer of or association with these worldly/secular activities in the assembly for the same objective is apparent. The mature Christian knows it. So, ask the young or not-so-grown-up follower who has been “under-the-influence

We are fully aware that you continue to promote your own church’s “Happy Hour” event in churches of Christ. Frankly, that’s not going to be accepted by the congregation that is truly grounded in the truth. Only a deluded congregation would go along with your “happy hour” scheme, and it might as well change its affiliation to that of your denomination—end of story.

I think that you should conserve your energy and effort in the church you are affiliated with. You are not the answer to what goes on at Madison.

Donnie</font>
<font color=indigo size=3 face=times new roman>Nadab,

It appears that you really admire some of my expressions and statements—even when you ape them for your spinning purposes. Thank you … I think. [There you go again … look at the subject of this post.]

OK … as you said, I can accuse you of plagiarism? Well, don’t feel bad—so long as you just give me some credit for my expressions before you twist them. Anyway, the smart reader is not oblivious to the fact that you twist and spin and, in the end, will find that your alliance with the change-mongering disciples is evident.

Yes, I took the time to underscore your “few choice words”—as I did not want my post “folded, stapled and mutilated” and to leave the reader totally confused as to where I stand. By doing so, I feel that I have successfully contrasted YOUR OWN DISTORTED VIEWS. Just where did you “acquire” these strange ideas from? You probably ought to explain yourself (in your own words) in your next response. Would you do this?

Nadab, I will have to disappoint you … now that you have attempted to use your “own words” for a change — but you’re not the first one to see “the need” for me “to find a new congregation to worship at.” That I “shame Jesus and His church by slandering and causing division in the church you still claim to be a member of

Whoa! Nadab, why do you take pride in identifying yourself as Nadab? Of course, that’s your prerogative. But it speaks a lot about your defiant attitude. My gut feeling is that you are fully cognizant of the truth or principle derived from the “Nadab and Abihu’s unwanted and unneeded sacrifice” — when they “offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not” [Leviticus 10]. You do not want to believe that “musical worship” for holy entertainment or a constant “Atta Boy!” to yourself [I love you, Lord”] can be a form of idolatry. Am I right or am I wrong in my assumption that you are in favor of allowing musical instruments to participate with you in the assembly of the saints?

I would urge the reader to go back and read the message you posted on Sept. 24—that one in which I highlighted your “few choice words.” Only the change agents and their followers would agree with your distorted views. I can also see what kinds of lessons you learned from your Bible classes when you were growing up … or was that in recent years? Or, maybe, just maybe, I’m unsure as to what is really your religious affiliation … since your views DO NOT represent those of the majority of members of the church of Christ I know.

Donnie</font>
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