West End Church of Christ, Nashville,Tn.

Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

January 4th, 2003, 4:33 am #11

Been sipping out of that new WINESKIN, huh?

While doing Fish and Chips you made a slip.

Jesus spoke UNDER THE LAW and contrary to the very meaning of the JUBILEE as a repudiation of the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ (full Deity), He also fulfilled the Passover. If you observe the "passover" you deliberately put yourself on the side of Egypt as the model of SIN and musical idolatry. You put yourself on the FAR side of the waters of baptism and the gift of the Spirit.

1Co.5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

We remember Christ as the SPIRITUAL PASSOVER, the Lamb of God and not the blood used to redeem the Israelites when God's better judgment decided that they should remain in their sin.

Paul took this BEFORE HIS DEATH beginning of the Lord's Supper to its completeness. They met EVERY FIRST day of the week and the fact that the Corinthians DID NOT meet for the Lord's Supper (not Passover) proves that they SHOULD Have met for that purpose.

Paul does not speak in terms of the Passover because that would repudiate the fact that the Lord's Supper was to remember Jesus Christ and not physical lambs. Furthermore, Paul said that we SHOW FORTH or preach the death of Christ.

I don't believe there is ANY GRACE to those who repudiate the direct commands of the Bible.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

How is GRACE going to cover your sins which GRACE taught you not to do??

The Pharisees deliberately ignored the Written Words of Christ the Spirit (1 peter 1:11) SO THAT they could folow their own COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. Jesus said that following the traditions of men made WORSHIP VAIN. So, the Pharisees belittle the inspired Word of Christ.

Musical worship teams makes VAIN WORSHIP because it ignores the clear teaching of Scripture which Jesus connected to the perverted MOUTH religion of the Jews.

Jesus quotes the statement in both Isaiah and Ezekiel 33 where God defined the Jews as looking for a beautiful voice and well played musical instruments: they were treating both God and Ezekiel as homosexual, musical performers. Jesus used this PATTERN to describe the Pharisees.

No one including Jesus ever CONDEMNED anyone for obeying the Revealed Word. Pharisees could care less as long as their long prayer performance gave them the chance to "steal the homes of widows."

THERE IS NO GRACE for anyone RESTING on Grace to forgive deliberate sins. Grace is NOT UNLIMITED FORGIVEMENT FOR UNLIMITED SINS. Grace is the POWER (Charisma) of God which ENABLES you to conform to His image and His Words. Dismiss the Word then kiss GRACE goodby: Jesus is not a performance preacher or a "musical praiser's" playmate of the week.

If you are part of a "praise team" then by returning to the olden days your "team members" will be prostitutes and sodomites: Yep, right there piping trying to get Jesus into the groove. The GYMNASIUM and the musical, homosexual worship of Zeus-Dionysus the homosexual god of the NEW WINE IN NEW WINESKINS was the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Places claiming to be GOD by claiming to musically "lead you into God's presence."

The end time Abomination of Desolation will be the same musicians or MUSES or a 9 member team under Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon. He is also Saturn worshiped and condemned by Amos 5 and 6. His/her Chaldee number is 666. I just have to believe that Apollo has turned his LOCUSTS loose. They are Apollo's musical performers:

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Of musical heresy Clement notes what John may have warned against:

"The Locrian breaks a string. The grasshopper sprang on the neck of the instrument, and sang on it as on a branch; and the MINSTREL, adapting his strain to the grasshopper's song, made up for the want of the missing string. The grasshopper then was attracted by the song of Eunomos, as the fable represents, according to which also a brazen statue of Eunomos with his lyre, and the Locrian's ally in the contest, was erected at Pytho.

But of its own accord it flew to the LYRE, and of its own accord SANG, and was regarded by the Greeks as a musical PERFORMER.

But the dramas and the raving poets, now quite intoxicated, let us crown with ivy; and distracted outright as they are, in Bacchic fashion, with the SATYRS, and the frenzied RABBLE, and the rest of the DEMON crew, let us confine to Cithaeron and Helicon, now antiquated.
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The locusts or grasshoppers DON'T EAT GRASS: they SEPARATE those MARKED by music from those MARKED by the word or Spirit of Christ. If you sing and clap along you are, in the Hebrew, "driving a tent peg" into the head of Jesus Christ. That is the STING OF DEATH.

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Here is where it all began with a ZOE character:

Inanna bragged after stealing the gifts from EA or Satan type:

He gave me the art of lovemaking.
He gave me the art of kissing the phallus.
He gave me the art of prostitution.
He gave me the resounding musical instrument.
He gave me the art of song.
He gave me the art of the elder.
He gave me the kindling of strife

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.htm

She is the end-time musical harlot of Revelation 18. She is EVE which Paul warned the women about. Eve is ZOE in the Greek translation. Eve was wholly seduced (sexually) by the serpent whose name identifies him/her as Lucifer, the harp-playing prostitute: the Musical Enchanter. Eve or ZOE then easily led Adam into the same seduction. Better be quiet Christian women because of we Adams you CANNOT be visible and "performance" audible without exercising SEXUAL AUTHORITY over us. Woe to the women who are USED by men to SEDUCE people to help pay the bills!

COMMERCE as well as musical performers is one of the MARKS of the end time Prostitute worship.

That is what PAUL knew that YOU don't know when he OUTLAWED both "music" and women exercising "authority" which is the Greek authentia which is "both erotic and murderous." Check the content of the EROTIC praise songs trying to make love to a Holy God. There is NO GRACE to cover you for deliberate sin and recommending it to others.

Gag! Gag!

Peter told Ananias and Sapphira that the property BELONGED TO THEM and there was no mandatory "communal living." Wrong fish shop.

Kenneth Sublett
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Mark Waggoner
Mark Waggoner

January 4th, 2003, 8:37 pm #12

OK, so we don't have coke and chips for the Communion. Then, LIKE THE ORIGINAL, lets have a full passover meal for communion. The original "Lord's Supper" WAS a passover meal. The Bible mentions the 3rd cup which was the cup of redemption it does not mention the other 4 cups, BUT they partook of them on that night. Also, the bread that they partook of was probably the 3rd piece of bread. You see it was broken into 3 pieces at the beginning of the meal (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) and the Son is the middle piece, which they ate. Pretty Cool, huh?

Anyway, if we cannot have praise teams because the Bible does not mention it and we can only DO STUFF the Bible does mention, then lets go the whole way and ONLY DO STUFF the way the Bible SPECIFICALLY says to. YOU CANNOT HAVE IT BOTH WAYS AND DO THINGS YOU CHOOSE TO DO THE WAY YOU WANT TO AND TELL OTHERS "NO,YOU CANNOT DO IT THAT WAY".

So, Let's all meet in the synagogue of your choosing or in someones home, lets live communally sharing our earnings and all our possessions and giving MOST of that away from the very beginning. Let's not pay any preachers or have ANY church buildings. Let's gather together MORE than we do and remember communion EACH AND EVERY time we get together, not just on Sundays. Let's LOVE EACH OTHER UNCONDITIONALLY!

Can we do all that??? Yes, we can, but WOULD we? You cannot have it both ways. If you choose to live BY THE LETTER OF THE LAW the way the pharasees did, then more power to you (reference the above) OR you can depend on God's Grace... I choose the latter.
First of all, Jesus did not institute the Passover and did not command observance of it. He did command, "this do in remembrance of me", when He offered the unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. This activity and subsequent command did take place during the 3rd cup, of four, of the Passover meal; however, Jesus did NOT command observance of the Passover.

Secondly, where does our authority come from? Does Biblical silence authorize any activity? Did God have to specifically exclude the other 11 tribes when He commanded that the priests be Levites? Look up Hebrews 7:14, where it says that Moses said NOTHING concerning the tribe of Jesus being priests. Why did God kill Nadab and Abihu, during the act of worship, when they offered "strange fire" - that which the Lord did not command. Look at Leviticus 10:1, this was not a violation of a "thou shalt not" - it was an addition to an existing command. Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter, "...that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant...", Chapter 4:6. If Biblical silence is permissive, there is no end as to what can be taught and practiced. Would this be consistent with the Scriptures? I think not.

Finally, who is trying to have it both ways? Whose authority are we going to follow? For it to be God's, it must be provided to us: "and whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus". We can sincerely look up to heaven and say, "I'm doing this for you, Lord"; however, that is not how we can assume authority. Jesus said, "not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." Who is exhibiting the attitude of the Pharisee, here? The Pharisees were arrogant because they substituted their wisdom for God's, practiced showy piousness for self glorification, and bound traditions of men as commandments of God. My friend, God's grace comes with the responsibility, on our part, to live obediently to His rules - not ours. Christ's resurrection is the power through which we have received God's grace; however, it is conditional upon our obedience.

Mark Waggoner
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Joe McKnight
Joe McKnight

January 5th, 2003, 12:52 pm #13

I have been a member at West End my entire life. I have seen a lot of changes and a lot of turmoil. My comment is until you know clearly what is going on don't criticize us.
I will admit West End has had its problems over the past several years. Actually our turmoil and problems started when Jim Bill retired over 15 years ago. Since then, it seems to have gone in waves or cycles. We will have periods of conflict and then periods where everything settles down. I will admit I don't agree with everything that has been decided by our elders or ministers. There have been times that I have been close to leaving (my parents left three years ago). I just can't go yet, because there are many good works and people who are working toward the Truth and serving God. We have had many faithful Christians and strong workers for the Lord leave over the past few years. It is interesting however, that these people have become members at both very progressive congregations and very conservative congregations in Nashville. West End has been riding a fence and trying to decide what to do, which has been killing it. Our new pulpit and youth ministers have brought positive changes and a renewed energy at West End. Definitely answers to many prayers.
Our biggest problem is not praise teams or small groups or entertainment. Those are only symptoms. Our biggest problem is a divided eldership, that masquerades itself as being unanimous and is not forth coming, honest, or open with its members. How can congregation grow and bless others when its leadership can't see eye to eye and its membership has no idea what is going on. They say we have no right to know and to some degree they are right. They accuse us of gossiping if we try to figure it out. But we are just looking for answers and the truth. Otherwise we feel lied to and don't trust our elders. It is a battle we have long been fighting but things are getting better.

As for the praise team, I admit I'm not a fan and wish we didn't have one. But there is nothing unscriptual about it. I can not pull out my Bible and find one scripture saying Thou shall not have a praise team or anything akin to it. I do think they hurt worship instead of help it, but that is a preference not scripture. Praise teams are not a salvation issue. They are merely a worship preference. Our praise is not upfront on the stage in an entertaining manner. They sit admist the audience with microphones. The women are not usurping anyone's authority. I will say that West End's praise team is not anything new. We have been trying to have one for the past five or six years. It is interesting however, the amount of problems that they have had with it, from sound equipment failure to a lack of finding anyone to consistently be on it or lead it. It has only really taken off in the last six months, but the leader has recently moved to Florida. I don't know if we will have the singers to keep it around.

For all its problems, I think West End is heading in a positive direction. God has not abandoned West End and the prayers of the faithful. We still have many problems to overcome and battles to fight, but we will not give up.
After reading your post and living through a church take over, I suggest it is time for you to run. Your defence for the praise team shows that you are starting to buy off on their lies, and once you start it is easy to slip into the pit with them. This is just a suggestion based on my experience, but if you stay put in place strong check and balances to know when it is time to leave.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight
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Joe McKnight
Joe McKnight

January 5th, 2003, 1:02 pm #14

First of all, Jesus did not institute the Passover and did not command observance of it. He did command, "this do in remembrance of me", when He offered the unleavened bread and the fruit of the vine. This activity and subsequent command did take place during the 3rd cup, of four, of the Passover meal; however, Jesus did NOT command observance of the Passover.

Secondly, where does our authority come from? Does Biblical silence authorize any activity? Did God have to specifically exclude the other 11 tribes when He commanded that the priests be Levites? Look up Hebrews 7:14, where it says that Moses said NOTHING concerning the tribe of Jesus being priests. Why did God kill Nadab and Abihu, during the act of worship, when they offered "strange fire" - that which the Lord did not command. Look at Leviticus 10:1, this was not a violation of a "thou shalt not" - it was an addition to an existing command. Paul wrote to the Corinthians in his first letter, "...that in us you may learn not to exceed what is written, in order that no one of you might become arrogant...", Chapter 4:6. If Biblical silence is permissive, there is no end as to what can be taught and practiced. Would this be consistent with the Scriptures? I think not.

Finally, who is trying to have it both ways? Whose authority are we going to follow? For it to be God's, it must be provided to us: "and whatever you do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus". We can sincerely look up to heaven and say, "I'm doing this for you, Lord"; however, that is not how we can assume authority. Jesus said, "not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven." Who is exhibiting the attitude of the Pharisee, here? The Pharisees were arrogant because they substituted their wisdom for God's, practiced showy piousness for self glorification, and bound traditions of men as commandments of God. My friend, God's grace comes with the responsibility, on our part, to live obediently to His rules - not ours. Christ's resurrection is the power through which we have received God's grace; however, it is conditional upon our obedience.

Mark Waggoner
Dear Brother Mark
Your comment about the Lord's supper being a Passover meal needs to be restudied. The timing was not right for it to be their Passover meal. I admit it is a small thing but it seem that litte lies grow into mustard plants. Email me if I can be of asistance.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight
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Mark Waggoner
Mark Waggoner

January 5th, 2003, 9:45 pm #15

Joe

I did NOT state and do NOT advocate that the Lord's Supper WAS a Passover meal; however, the Lord did institute it during the Passover meal that He observed with His disciples prior to His arrest.

As for the timing thing, yes we can get into quite a discussion here. Without going into a huge amount of detail, my opinion is that Christ observed the Passover earlier than the priests declared. There was much disagreement between the Jews as to when it needed to be observed. I believe that this meal occurred on our "Wednesday" and that Christ was crucified on Thursday, not Friday as tradition holds. The Jews would not enter the Praetorium when Jesus was before Pilate because they would be defiled and would not be able to eat the Passover (had not yet occurred), according to John 18:28. The Friday was the Passover, the "High Day" recorded by John 19:31, and was the day after the crucifixion. This would also provide the "three days and three nights" that Christ spent in the tomb (Matthew 12:40). Sabbath means "Holy Day", not necessarily "Saturday" as we sometimes assume. Every "Saturday" was a Sabbath; however, not every Sabbath was a "Saturday". The ancient Hebrew calendar has two years between AD 30 and AD 34 where the Passover did occur on a Friday, I'm sorry I can't remember which two years those were.

I apologize if my prior statements caused any confusion because there is a definite separation between the Passover and the Lord's Supper - even though the Lord's Supper was instituted during the Passover. I was merely attempting to refute an earlier comment relating to the authority, or lack thereof, of "praise teams" and keeping the Passover today. The 3rd cup of the Passover had nothing to do with unleavened bread as that was when the lamb was eaten. This cup, taken at the end of the meal, was also referred to as the "Cup of Blessing" - a phrase used by Paul to describe the Lord's Supper in I Corinthians 10:16.

Mark Waggoner
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Jim
Jim

January 7th, 2003, 5:35 pm #16

Go back and read your comments and you will discover that whether standing or sitting the PRAISE TEAM is consuming an awful (awesome) amount of the GIVING HEED.

Remember that not in the entire Bible is the MUSIC word used of worship. The Qahal or assembly in Hebrew is translated as Ekklesia in the Greek version. The Qahal was the synagogue or "church in the wilderness."

God authorized TWO (2) Silver Trumpets to be used to signal tribal movements or to give battle movements. The word TRIUMPH or ALARM includes either blowing instruments and "making a joyful noise before the Lord." This was NOT worship but boasting to try to panic the enemy into cowardice.

God through Moses said that they could BLOW the trumpets when assembling the Qahal or synagogue which NEVER met except for instructing all of the tribes or their elder- leaders. This would be like a church bell.

Numbers 10:7 specificially says that they COULD NOT make these noises when the assembly was called.

The Israelite people NEVER worshiped with singing and music. Only the king, clergy and officials participated in the temple animal sacrifices. The loud "music" or sound during the BURNING PHASE was typical of the slaughter of Lord Jesus Christ in the New Testament.

NO singer and NO musician was ever allowed into the Holy Place as a carnal type of the church. The SINGERS roaming around the temple were PROSTITUTES and the MUSICIANS were SODOMITES.

The ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the Intertestament period was the worship of Zeus and or Dionysus with music. This is why the Jewish clergy PIPED trying to force Jesus to sing and dance the perverted temple ritual. A homosexual atmosphere dominated.

The word MUSIC is the Greek SUMPHONIA and it is used ONLY of secular occasions which included drinking and dancing. A similar word MUSICIANS is used of the Babylon Harlot worship in Revelation 18. "Music" is derived from the 9 MUSES used by Apollo (or Abaddon or Apollyon) to seduce people into his commercial Seeker- Center at Delphi. He/she is Satan or Lucifer or ZOE MARKED by singing, music and dancing.

The Bible NEVER even commands "singing" which was a seculular often perverted activity or "external melody" which speaks of grinding the enemy into panic much like the TRIUMPH OVER outlawed by God. Paul commanded that the PREACHING or TEACHING be a "one another" activity, the RESOURCE to be "that which is written, the spirit, or the Word of Christ." The singing and melody would be meditating just as David did with his psalms.

When the MUSICAL role takes the place of the TEACHING emphasis you will have noticed that they VIOLATE the direct command of Paul that the RESOURCE is ALL the inspired metrical (singable) Biblical text.

This means that you are GIVING HEED to the LEGALISTIC WORKS effort of the TEAM and you CANNOT at the same time GIVE HEED to Christ through His Word. This means that NO WORSHIP can take place. And indeed since the HIRED HANDS violate the entire Bible and church History you are PAYING for the "doctors of the Law" which Jesus said "take away the key to knowledge." Jesus fired them and so should you. Since you have not elders APT to do the preaching-teaching role Peter gave YOU the authority to TAKE THE OVERSIGHT and begin teaching the FAILED institution or help lead them to safety.

Music has always been (like the wineskin creed) the MARK of male or female prostitutes EVEN in the Bible. Don't do it! The only authority of the elders is TEACHING authority and your OBEDIENCE is to follow his instructions and "watch the outcome of his life." Therefore, whether standing or sitting the male and female "youngers" ARE usurping the authority of the elders. Sometimes the elders are not ignorant: they may just be cowards under subjection to the rulership of "women and children" or women and the "effeminate."

Ken Sublett

Well, I guess the church has been wrong for 1900 - 2000 years, and God has finally raised up a new prophet to enlighten us poor idiots who have been singing. Thank you so much for being able to interpret the scripture like no other person ever has. Come to think of it, even Jesus might have been in violation of the lack of a command regarding singing (as you obviously take Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16 to mean "meditating like David did") when he and the apostles sung a hymn and went out to the Mount of Olives (Matthew 26:30).

Kenneth, you give conservative members of the church of Christ a bad name. To those liberals on here let me say that this is one conservative person who flatly doesn't agree with all the change that's taking place and the division that has come over it. As I have said in other posts, I worship in a very conservative church. We have one songleader and preacher (of course Sublett apparently thinks that's not scriptural either). We have three elders and 5 deacons (no women deacons). We will never have a praise team or any other type of innovation. But, I don't know anyone in our congregation that would agree with this. When the Bible says sing, it means sing, unaccompanied, period, end of sentence. Sing does not mean meditate. And to think that singers are equal to prostitutes and homosexuals! How completely rediculous. Everyone, including Mr. Sublett, needs to study their Bibles. And you don't have to know Greek or Hebrew, or Latin, to know God's word. It's really quite simple. But Mr. Sublett, you are WRONG about singing, DEAD WRONG. And your attitude with some of the liberals on this site is rather disgusting. Start reading your Bible and quit reading so much on what others have said about the Bible, and for goodness' sake, leave the sex stuff alone. At the very least you sound like a broken record, and to some you sound like a sex-starved dirty old man. AS I've said in other posts (and I don't know whether this post will clear the moderator or not), I'm not mad at you, but you need to study, study, study the B-I-B-L-E, and leave yours and other men's think-so's out of it.

Thanks,

Jim
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

January 7th, 2003, 8:04 pm #17

No way you can disconnect SEXUALITY and MUSIC because that is the UNIVERSAL connection. Lucifer brought both with HER after seducing the very angels.

It may offend you but neither of us can BREAK the record of the Bible and History. I won't quit until you wake up and recognize the Holy Whore prophesied almost at the end of God's Message to us. That is why they ALWAYS USED women in pagan religion: to fill up the collection plates. Unfortunately, my sword hits organic instruments (organum) as honestly as it hits mechanical instruments. Neither flapping WING has the slightest interest in having an EDUCATED body.

Thank you for your keen observation. You know, people come in two classes. First, is the priest sent to slaughter animals. To that they added singing and loud instruments (not music). The Levites are the MUSICAL MOCKERS fulfilled in the murder of Jesus with music treating him as BELIAR.

Next, the PROPHETS universally, 100% of the time repudiate the RELIGION of the temple because God had TURNED THEM OVER TO WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST. The temple and king were LIKE THE NATIONS to repudiate God and lead the people into captivity and death.

The PROPHETS were always cursed and thrown into deep mud holes up to their neck. Nevertheless, they NEVER CEASED associating Jewish singing and instruments with telling God: "We will not listen to your Word."

No, the church was not wrong for 2,000 years. The word sing or ODE was to chant because SINGING did not exist as YOU know it. Probably Alexander Campbell introduced "religious hymns" into the Restoration Movement because he had a song book to peddle. Musicologists recognize church "hymnology" as a product of the lost and ignorant frontier adopting VOODOO from the blacks also trying to find their way back to paganism. The same "music" left Africa and went to Babylon.

The Britannica notes that:

"Melody as 'tunefulness' belongs to the 19th century and depends on symmetries of harmony and rhythm which seldom occurs in music written before the 16th century...

That is why YOUR SING is NOT Paul's SING nor the SING of early church practices.

Matthew 26:29 But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Fathers kingdom.

Matthew 26:30 And when they had {sung} an HYMN, they went out into the mount of Olives.

A "hymn" is one of the forms of the Psalms. The Septuagint (LXX) clearly identifies which PSALMS are HYMNS.

The first "non-music" DIRECT COMMAND by Paul was:

For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our LEARNING, that we through patience and comfort of the SCRIPTURES might have hope. Romans 15:4

Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus: Romans 15:5

That ye may with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 15:6

In Ephesians 5 the commanded RESOURCES were Biblical or "that which was written" or the Spirit of Christ which is His Word (John 6:63), or The Word of Christ" in Col 3:16

That EXCLUDES self-composed "scripture" to be used in the assembly or "school of the Bible." Church councils were held to prohibit it before instruments became a problem.

Now, if I can say THUS SAITH THE LORD then I am prophesying to you. To keep from tiring the masses you can click here to grasp what no preacher I ever knew (outside of primitive Baptists and many presbyterians) knows a tittle about the Satanic role of music in the bible.

http://www.piney.com/Psalms-Hymns-Spiritual-Son.html

Hymns "was that part of the Hallel consisting of Psalms 113-118; where the verb itself is rendered 'to sing praises' or 'praise' Acts 16:25; Heb 2:12. The Psalms are called, in general, 'hymns,' by Philo; Josephus calls them 'songs and hymns.'" Vine on Humneo

----That is why SUNG was an added, redundant word. So there is no Sing or Sang or Sung in the passage.

"Philo uses humnos regularly for the OT Psalms."

http://www.piney.com/ MusPsallo1.html

There WAS NO SINGING as you grasp it and I don't need to be a prophet to tell you what the PROFITS hide from you:

"in music, intoned liturgical recitation of scriptural texts, guided by signs originally devised as textual accents, punctuations, and indications of emphasis.. Although first intended to clarify the reading of the texts." Jewish Liturgical Music. Singing in the Greek was the "natural intonation of the language.

---"Ritual music was at first only cantillation, i.e., recitative chanting, of the prose books of the Bible

---"Later the prayers and biblical poetry were CHANTED, presumably in a modal system similar to the ragas of Hindu music or the maqamat of Arab music, i.e., melodies with improvisations. Jewish Liturgical Music

THERE WAS NO PRAISE SERVICE IN THE SYNAGOGUE: INDEED IT WAS OUTLAWED IN THE QAHAL or CHURCH IN THE WILDERNESS and never occurred in the structured Synagogue.

In Islamic Worship:

--"Cantillation is also used in Islamic religious services in the recitation of the Qur'an and in the muezzin's call to prayer, or adhan.

---"Neither it nor the cantillation of the Qur'an are considered to be music, however, and music as such is forbidden in religious services.

I will direct you to the "infiltration and diverting" by the prostitutes and Sodomites around the temple in a smaller dose. The Levitical Panic Creators were not called MUSICIANS because music as such was the realm of innocent children or prostitutes or warriors. The Levitical "singers and players" performed the same NATIONAL exorcism while they were slaughtering tens of thousands of TYPES of Lord Jesus Christ also MOCKED with music by the same SINGERS AND MUSICIANS "Under the King and Commanders of the Army."

Everyone listened to the "prophesiers" which means to say "lord, lord" or "sing and play musical instruments." No one ever listened to the writing prophets. I don't expect most to listen and God has not given me the "god like" burden to be troubled by it. The gospel will not be preached for conversion but for a WITNESS.

The connection between singing and music beginning in the garden of Eden was Lucifer, the harp playing prostitute who sang beautiful songs. The Ancient Near Eastern Text identify the musical perversion against which Moses Warned. Singing and music is identified in the Bible with people treating God like a prostitute. All of the classical writings draw an identity between musicians and prostitutes. The church fathers agree. It is your task to prove that this is not the case and not to USE YOUR PENKNIFE on what I can prove. The fact that you should trust me is that I spend about 120 dollars a month to teach and do not see "godliness as a means of financial gain." Nothing Christian is for sale and nothing for sale is Christian: The Bible tells me so.

History is full of singing AND melody IN THE HEART or Spirit which is the only PLACE God looks for our worship. A Catholic expert notes:

"According to what has been said, it can be seen that the doctrine of the 'spiritual sacrifice' not only repudiated bloody sacrifices but also REJECTED MUSIC, particularly instrumental music, as a means of worshipping God. Although the 'spiritual sacrifice' was originally explained in terms of hymns of praise to God's goodness and majesty, its logical development eventually considered singing UNSUITABLE for divine worship." p. 54-55

Your SING is not Paul's SING and YOU don't write the inspired SCRIPTURE commanded to be EXCLUSIVELY in chanting or reciting the metrical BIBLE.

Sing praises to the LORD (singular), enthroned in Zion;
-----proclaim among the nations what he has done. Psalm 9:11
I remembered God, and was troubled: I complained, and my spirit was overwhelmed. Selah. Ps.77:3
-----I call (Mention, burn incense) to remembrance my song (h5058) in the night:
-----I commune with MY own HEART: and my SPIRIT made diligent search. Psalm 77:6
Sing UNTO HIM, sing psalms unto HIM:
----TALK ye of all his wondrous works. Ps.105:2

Whether your church knows it or not that is exactly what Paul said:

We SPEAK or PREACH or TEACH one another.
We sing (secular) AND make melody (compare SOP)
-----IN OUR HEART. IN THE HEART means IN THE HEART which means IN THE HEART and David agreed several times.

External HARMONY (not related to melody) is a frontal attack on the human SPIRIT. Jesus died to remove the burden laded by the clergy which is SPIRITUAL ANXIETY CREATED BY RELIGIOUS RITUAL.

Musical HARMONY creates a DRUG HIGH and you CANNOT give heed to Christ while giving heed to the MUSIC AND MUSICIANS. GIVE HEED is almost the UNIQUE "worship" word used by Paul. Diverting the mind from God's Word has always meant SPIRITUAL ADULTERY.

Please, never again, call me a CONSERVATIVE: I am a Christian which does not mean WORSHIPER but a DISCIPLE and both EXTREMES are just obverse sides of the same coin keeping up the sham battle to keey YOU from recognizing that "THE PEA IS UNDER NEITHER SHELL."

If you have more authority than my quoted scholars some of whom could have known John and SERMONIZED before Christ about music; or if a FREE document posted at a large human cost offends you while one slick willie sermonic exercise costing you a thousand bucks is honored then XCUZE ME I need to be busy with three people seeking an AUDIENCE with their pastor persons about SINGING or watching THE LION KING (Horus worship) while PRETENDING to remember the DEATH of Christ during the "Lord's Supper."

Ken Sublett
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GOD
GOD

February 3rd, 2003, 2:05 pm #18

I was surprised to read Ken Dye's resume on the West End Church of Christ Website. I have lived in Hendersonville for 17 years and at no time has the Hendersonville Community Church ever been called a church of Christ. Why in the world would they state that on their website?
If you have lived in Hendersonville for that long you must be totally stupid or ignorant because up until 2000 the church that split from Hendersonville Church of Christ was called Hendersonville Community Church of Christ. It changed when Lipscomb responded to jerks who got their panties in an uproar and asked for Doug Varnado's resignation.
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Ed
Ed

February 3rd, 2003, 2:13 pm #19

No, it doesn't say "do NOT have a praise team" and it doesn't say "do not have coke and chips for the Lord's Supper" but it does say what we SHOULD do.
OK so if you even read your bible then you do know it doesn't say we can't and as you pointed out it does tell us what to do. So show me the part about having a full time paid minister, a youth minister, a songleader (that's just one person), or dare I even say it a building. So unless you are worshiping in a home church or renting out a facility, everyone takes a turn starting the singing, and there is no paid minister at your church and never has been spare us the hipocracy.
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Huh
Huh

February 3rd, 2003, 2:22 pm #20

Been sipping out of that new WINESKIN, huh?

While doing Fish and Chips you made a slip.

Jesus spoke UNDER THE LAW and contrary to the very meaning of the JUBILEE as a repudiation of the finished work of Lord Jesus Christ (full Deity), He also fulfilled the Passover. If you observe the "passover" you deliberately put yourself on the side of Egypt as the model of SIN and musical idolatry. You put yourself on the FAR side of the waters of baptism and the gift of the Spirit.

1Co.5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

We remember Christ as the SPIRITUAL PASSOVER, the Lamb of God and not the blood used to redeem the Israelites when God's better judgment decided that they should remain in their sin.

Paul took this BEFORE HIS DEATH beginning of the Lord's Supper to its completeness. They met EVERY FIRST day of the week and the fact that the Corinthians DID NOT meet for the Lord's Supper (not Passover) proves that they SHOULD Have met for that purpose.

Paul does not speak in terms of the Passover because that would repudiate the fact that the Lord's Supper was to remember Jesus Christ and not physical lambs. Furthermore, Paul said that we SHOW FORTH or preach the death of Christ.

I don't believe there is ANY GRACE to those who repudiate the direct commands of the Bible.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Titus 2:12 TEACHING us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

How is GRACE going to cover your sins which GRACE taught you not to do??

The Pharisees deliberately ignored the Written Words of Christ the Spirit (1 peter 1:11) SO THAT they could folow their own COMMANDMENTS OF MEN. Jesus said that following the traditions of men made WORSHIP VAIN. So, the Pharisees belittle the inspired Word of Christ.

Musical worship teams makes VAIN WORSHIP because it ignores the clear teaching of Scripture which Jesus connected to the perverted MOUTH religion of the Jews.

Jesus quotes the statement in both Isaiah and Ezekiel 33 where God defined the Jews as looking for a beautiful voice and well played musical instruments: they were treating both God and Ezekiel as homosexual, musical performers. Jesus used this PATTERN to describe the Pharisees.

No one including Jesus ever CONDEMNED anyone for obeying the Revealed Word. Pharisees could care less as long as their long prayer performance gave them the chance to "steal the homes of widows."

THERE IS NO GRACE for anyone RESTING on Grace to forgive deliberate sins. Grace is NOT UNLIMITED FORGIVEMENT FOR UNLIMITED SINS. Grace is the POWER (Charisma) of God which ENABLES you to conform to His image and His Words. Dismiss the Word then kiss GRACE goodby: Jesus is not a performance preacher or a "musical praiser's" playmate of the week.

If you are part of a "praise team" then by returning to the olden days your "team members" will be prostitutes and sodomites: Yep, right there piping trying to get Jesus into the groove. The GYMNASIUM and the musical, homosexual worship of Zeus-Dionysus the homosexual god of the NEW WINE IN NEW WINESKINS was the Abomination of Desolation standing in the Holy Places claiming to be GOD by claiming to musically "lead you into God's presence."

The end time Abomination of Desolation will be the same musicians or MUSES or a 9 member team under Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon. He is also Saturn worshiped and condemned by Amos 5 and 6. His/her Chaldee number is 666. I just have to believe that Apollo has turned his LOCUSTS loose. They are Apollo's musical performers:

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Of musical heresy Clement notes what John may have warned against:

"The Locrian breaks a string. The grasshopper sprang on the neck of the instrument, and sang on it as on a branch; and the MINSTREL, adapting his strain to the grasshopper's song, made up for the want of the missing string. The grasshopper then was attracted by the song of Eunomos, as the fable represents, according to which also a brazen statue of Eunomos with his lyre, and the Locrian's ally in the contest, was erected at Pytho.

But of its own accord it flew to the LYRE, and of its own accord SANG, and was regarded by the Greeks as a musical PERFORMER.

But the dramas and the raving poets, now quite intoxicated, let us crown with ivy; and distracted outright as they are, in Bacchic fashion, with the SATYRS, and the frenzied RABBLE, and the rest of the DEMON crew, let us confine to Cithaeron and Helicon, now antiquated.
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The locusts or grasshoppers DON'T EAT GRASS: they SEPARATE those MARKED by music from those MARKED by the word or Spirit of Christ. If you sing and clap along you are, in the Hebrew, "driving a tent peg" into the head of Jesus Christ. That is the STING OF DEATH.

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Here is where it all began with a ZOE character:

Inanna bragged after stealing the gifts from EA or Satan type:

He gave me the art of lovemaking.
He gave me the art of kissing the phallus.
He gave me the art of prostitution.
He gave me the resounding musical instrument.
He gave me the art of song.
He gave me the art of the elder.
He gave me the kindling of strife

http://www.piney.com/BabEaGifts.htm

She is the end-time musical harlot of Revelation 18. She is EVE which Paul warned the women about. Eve is ZOE in the Greek translation. Eve was wholly seduced (sexually) by the serpent whose name identifies him/her as Lucifer, the harp-playing prostitute: the Musical Enchanter. Eve or ZOE then easily led Adam into the same seduction. Better be quiet Christian women because of we Adams you CANNOT be visible and "performance" audible without exercising SEXUAL AUTHORITY over us. Woe to the women who are USED by men to SEDUCE people to help pay the bills!

COMMERCE as well as musical performers is one of the MARKS of the end time Prostitute worship.

That is what PAUL knew that YOU don't know when he OUTLAWED both "music" and women exercising "authority" which is the Greek authentia which is "both erotic and murderous." Check the content of the EROTIC praise songs trying to make love to a Holy God. There is NO GRACE to cover you for deliberate sin and recommending it to others.

Gag! Gag!

Peter told Ananias and Sapphira that the property BELONGED TO THEM and there was no mandatory "communal living." Wrong fish shop.

Kenneth Sublett
Ken,

First of all let me just say that what ever drugs you were on when you wrote your treatise on this site, don't do that any more. Second of all let me say that you are misquoting scripture and using the books of first and second oppinions for your arguments. Last I will just say you really need to learn how to read the bible for yourself and get away from these neo-nazi's who feed you this crap.
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