Vacation Bible School

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 1st, 2013, 1:24 am #41

I do believe if Jesus made us overseers of the Church instead of the Holy Spirit, then the New Testament would have said so. But NO, the New Testament says that it is the HOLY SPIRIT who makes us overseers of the Church.

But if Ken wants to stick with "the spirit OF...." that's fine. Again, he is just as entitled to his personal perception of the Holy Spirit as others are equally entitled to perceive the Holy Spirit as a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Christ.
You keep ignoring the fact that the elders, bishops, pastor-teachers were gifted by CHRIST. Read slowly.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the GIFT of CHRIST.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When HE ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and [Christ] gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:11 And HE gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
and some, pastors and teachers; (Elders)


If you keep denying this clear fact I can't help you. In His glorified or spirit STATE to which we will attain, He is called The Holy Spirit 2 John 1

When the Spirit OF Christ gives a gift then Christ gives the gift but the Spirit OF Christ is not another being.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 1st, 2013, 2:02 am #42

Who denies Father and Son here at CM? Just as Donnie recycles "the spirit OF...." Ken recycles "antichrist." Apparently there are no more fresh, original topics to discuss. Maybe it's time for Donnie to start yet another thread about the Holy Spirit. Maybe Dave would like to start another thread about instrumental music.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

Whenever you are incapable of proving your RECYCLED stance on "the holy Spirit OF God" being God, you resort to comments like the ones above.

It is common knowledge that the Trinity Creed teaches that "the Holy Spirit" is a separate Divine Being, the Third Person also called God.

What you're doing is simply re-stating the premise of the Trinity Creed.

In a normal debate (religion, politics, education, etc.), the audience and the opponent will deride the debater who simply announces the premise (e.g., "the Holy Spirit is the Third Person in the Trinity Creed"). Why not present real evidence or proof that is difficult to dismantle?

Of course, no one here at CM (nor any Christian/believer worldwide) denies "the Father and the Son." Mathematically, that's "one plus one = two." That's the scriptural count regarding "the Godhead" detailed in Colossians 2. In Christ "dwells the FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD." STOP, Bill, please try to let that absorb for a while. Jesus Christ is the begotten Son of God the Father. You would not want to make that into a human familial situation by adding a separate Divine Being to produce "a son." In your case and of the Trinitarian ... by adding "the Holy Spirit" Third Person.

The Roman Catholic Church has already attempted that, in addition to another attempt by the RCC to add a third "divine" being called "Mary, the Mother of God."

Even in the 3 passages that mention the word "antichrist," the "FULNESS" does not include God's holy Spirit, important as ITS [the Spirit's] role is. When you add another "Divine Being" in the equation, mathematically, the "formula" changes to "one + one + one = three." The Scripture teaches neither "two minus one = one" nor "1 + 1 + 1 = 3" in "the FULNESS of the Godhead."

"The Godhead" is sufficiently explained in Colossians 2. It's "1 + 1 = 2" to represent "the Father and the Son." The Trinity Creed and its followers choose to change the scriptural formula by adding one more.

That's why we don't mess with the scriptural formula regarding "the Godhead."

Based on your constant re-statement of the Trinity Creed, you're not expected to understand or even try to understand I John 2:22 -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

When you do a "PLUS ONE MORE--the Holy Spirit," you are changing the truth regarding "the Father and the Son." Now, that is antichrist.[/color]
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Bill
Bill

September 1st, 2013, 2:10 am #43

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]It is really unfortunate that "OF" is insignificant to you.

It is unfortunate that you ignored "itself" in reference to "the Spirit itself."

I'm not going to ask you to diagram the 70 passages that use the preposition "OF" in those instances.

You can at least diagram Ephesians 4:30 --

"And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

English professor?[/color]
I never said "OF" is "insignificant." YOU, on the other hand, seem to DENY that there is more than one biblical way to perceive the Holy Spirit. YOUR one-and-only way is "the spirit OF..." Another way is to perceive the Holy Spirit as a distinct entity who is neither God nor Christ. BOTH ways have biblical support, as we have previously noted. I regret that profound narrow-mindedness prevents you from accepting BOTH ways, because in the long run, it really doesn't matter which way we lean in our perception of the Holy Spirit. Our perception would be vitally important IF and only IF our eternal destiny were contingent upon that perception. However, we have NO evidence to that effect in the New Testament. Therefore, bashing believers' personal perceptions of the Holy Spirit is pure arrogance.

Both of us can keep recycling our arguments until Judgment Day, if that's what you want.
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Bill
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September 1st, 2013, 2:12 am #44

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

Whenever you are incapable of proving your RECYCLED stance on "the holy Spirit OF God" being God, you resort to comments like the ones above.

It is common knowledge that the Trinity Creed teaches that "the Holy Spirit" is a separate Divine Being, the Third Person also called God.

What you're doing is simply re-stating the premise of the Trinity Creed.

In a normal debate (religion, politics, education, etc.), the audience and the opponent will deride the debater who simply announces the premise (e.g., "the Holy Spirit is the Third Person in the Trinity Creed"). Why not present real evidence or proof that is difficult to dismantle?

Of course, no one here at CM (nor any Christian/believer worldwide) denies "the Father and the Son." Mathematically, that's "one plus one = two." That's the scriptural count regarding "the Godhead" detailed in Colossians 2. In Christ "dwells the FULNESS OF THE GODHEAD." STOP, Bill, please try to let that absorb for a while. Jesus Christ is the begotten Son of God the Father. You would not want to make that into a human familial situation by adding a separate Divine Being to produce "a son." In your case and of the Trinitarian ... by adding "the Holy Spirit" Third Person.

The Roman Catholic Church has already attempted that, in addition to another attempt by the RCC to add a third "divine" being called "Mary, the Mother of God."

Even in the 3 passages that mention the word "antichrist," the "FULNESS" does not include God's holy Spirit, important as ITS [the Spirit's] role is. When you add another "Divine Being" in the equation, mathematically, the "formula" changes to "one + one + one = three." The Scripture teaches neither "two minus one = one" nor "1 + 1 + 1 = 3" in "the FULNESS of the Godhead."

"The Godhead" is sufficiently explained in Colossians 2. It's "1 + 1 = 2" to represent "the Father and the Son." The Trinity Creed and its followers choose to change the scriptural formula by adding one more.

That's why we don't mess with the scriptural formula regarding "the Godhead."

Based on your constant re-statement of the Trinity Creed, you're not expected to understand or even try to understand I John 2:22 -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

When you do a "PLUS ONE MORE--the Holy Spirit," you are changing the truth regarding "the Father and the Son." Now, that is antichrist.[/color]
The three R's of topics that have been beaten to death: Recycle, Recycle, Recycle...


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[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That may be the best argument you've ever presented -- lacking in depth.[/color]
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on September 1st, 2013, 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 1st, 2013, 2:29 am #45

Donnie, you shouldn't be disturbed so much that some folks just perceive the Holy Spirit differently than you do. Your perception, based on "the spirit OF...," is just as valid as others, who base their perception on passages such as Acts 20:28 and Romans 8:26. Your denial of those other passages indicates that you think your perception is the ONLY correct one. That is arrogance.

A person is not narrow-minded if he can accept passages that mention "the spirit OF..." On the other hand, that same person IS hopelessly narrow-minded if he flatly denies that the example passages previously mentioned show the Holy spirit to be a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus. So how can the Holy Spirit to some be "the spirit OF God" AND to others be a distinct, non-person entity? Some would scoff and say, "Impossible!!" Oh ye of little faith! Remember that with God, all things are possible.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

Open your eyes really wide.

There is no denial on my part of the 2 passages (Acts 20:28; Romans 8:26)). They simply DO NOT PROVE that there is a Third Person, separate Divine Being identified in those verses.

How many times have I explained this?????

You don't even have an explanation for:

(1) "The Spirit itself[/color] beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God" (Romans 8:16).

(2) "Likewise <font size="5">the Spirit
also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but <b>the Spirit itself
maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." (Rom. 8:26)</b>

By the way, Bill, I'm quoting the same passage you're quoting -- Romans 8:26.

"The Spirit" that you and the Trinitarians believe to be the Third Person God is mentioned in Romans 8:26. Correct and true!!!!

But NOTE, Bill, please, please, please.

In both verses, the ever-inconsistent-and-confused translators translated the expression "the Spirit ITSELF" correctly.

Why "the Spirit ITSELF" -- and not "the Spirit HIMSELF"????????????? Sounds like "the Spirit" has been transgendered [from masculine to neuter] by the earthlings.</font>
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 1st, 2013, 2:38 am #46

I never said "OF" is "insignificant." YOU, on the other hand, seem to DENY that there is more than one biblical way to perceive the Holy Spirit. YOUR one-and-only way is "the spirit OF..." Another way is to perceive the Holy Spirit as a distinct entity who is neither God nor Christ. BOTH ways have biblical support, as we have previously noted. I regret that profound narrow-mindedness prevents you from accepting BOTH ways, because in the long run, it really doesn't matter which way we lean in our perception of the Holy Spirit. Our perception would be vitally important IF and only IF our eternal destiny were contingent upon that perception. However, we have NO evidence to that effect in the New Testament. Therefore, bashing believers' personal perceptions of the Holy Spirit is pure arrogance.

Both of us can keep recycling our arguments until Judgment Day, if that's what you want.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

I used to believe [BLINDLY!!!] what you now believe.

"Not a salvation issue" is not an argument.

Just prove your "perception" or imagination by Scripture. Then, I'll change my mind again.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 1st, 2013, 3:39 am #47

The three R's of topics that have been beaten to death: Recycle, Recycle, Recycle...


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[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That may be the best argument you've ever presented -- lacking in depth.[/color]
I believe that it was little Johnny Wesley's mom who was aksed? Why do you tell Johnny something 20 times? Mom responded: "Because Johnny did not understand when I told him 19 times."

The Church of Christ in the wilderness and the entire Bible assembly had two functions.

To Speak or read the same things from the Word (only)
And REHEARSE it. So, the Purpose Driven Pattern is to REHEARSE over and over and over so get over it.

Singing and making melody IN the heart is rehearsing or meditating without which no one learns anything.

It is 'dealer's choice' about what needs to be recycled, recycled, recycled and the readers choice to understand the quoted Biblical and historical FACTS or keep on whining. Since I provide a link, I am speaking to a specific question or some new instrumental attack taking place. If the attack is on MUSIC then old Ken is smart enough to do a quick study of MUSIC. Don't bother to understand that sentence.

As long as the ONLY real issues being RECYCLED in all of the workshops and papers is about the SPIRIT who told me to lie about instruments or using all of the RACA words against those who SOW DISCORD by refusing to bow down when they pipe.

My look at Stark Warlick which was the lick that proved that non-instrumental churches cannot do business with instrumentalists had Stark saying something like this:

Billy Bob Butthead has fallen in love with Joe's wife. He says that he is going to move into Joe's bedroom and the wife agrees.

So, Joe says that he is moving out and taking his paycheck with him.

Billy Bob holds meetings and writes letters to everyone in the county saying that Joe is SOWING DISCORD and breaking up his family. And about a hundred bloggers tell everyone that Joe is a legalistic, sectarian, hypocrite sorehead patternist for breaking up his family.


My wife and I listened to a bit of news and she also decided that the Massed Multitudes are OF the World and honest logic no longer exists. To wit, a recent election and "first we gonna pass the bill then we gonna read it." The Mayans were correct: the moral and logical poles have reversed.


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Bill
Bill

September 1st, 2013, 3:52 am #48

The three R's of topics that have been beaten to death: Recycle, Recycle, Recycle...


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[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]That may be the best argument you've ever presented -- lacking in depth.[/color]
You've done quite a bit of recycling yourself, Donnie. In fact, that's ALL you've done lately, and in multiple threads to boot, so don't you ever complain and moan again about recycling until you can find a completely NEW topic to discuss.
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Bill
Bill

September 1st, 2013, 4:31 am #49

It is apparent that Donnie applies the phrase "lacking in depth" to those fully biblical arguments that he fully rejects.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 1st, 2013, 5:23 am #50

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]No, "lacking in depth" was in reference to your rebuttal: "The three R's of topics that have been beaten to death: Recycle, Recycle, Recycle..."

When the Scripture presents expressions such as "the Spirit ITSELF," and one makes a fully biblical argument that God's holy Spirit is masculine, then, I'll be the first one to fully accept it. By the way, Bill, I'm referring to:

(1) "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit..." [Romans 8:16]
(2) "... but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us..." (Romans 8:26)
(3) There are other passages.

You might as well notice the comparison in Romans 8:16 between:

(a) the spirit of God
--------------- and ------------
(b) the spirit of man

... and neither one is masculine.[/color]
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