Vacation Bible School

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 31st, 2013, 7:46 pm #31

Donnie continues to "recycle" the preposition "OF."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill, as the resident grammar EXPERT, should be the one recycling "the preposition OF" as it certainly affects the SCOPE of the discussion regarding "the holy Spirit OF God."

I can only be led to believe that since the preposition "OF" negates his pre-conditioned stance on the Trinity Creed, he will not do it.

Since the grammar expert refuses to even explain why he is so opposed to teaching us "grammar," I am doing it to the best of my ability.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 31st, 2013, 8:11 pm #32

I do believe if Jesus made us overseers of the Church instead of the Holy Spirit, then the New Testament would have said so. But NO, the New Testament says that it is the HOLY SPIRIT who makes us overseers of the Church.

But if Ken wants to stick with "the spirit OF...." that's fine. Again, he is just as entitled to his personal perception of the Holy Spirit as others are equally entitled to perceive the Holy Spirit as a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Christ.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill, were/are you an elder? I'm just wondering because of your statement: "made us overseers." May I remind you that the message in Acts was directed to the elders and not just to any Christian?

The mention of "the HOLY SPIRIT" in Acts 20:28 does not prove what you and the Trinitarians espouse -- the Third Person, separate Divine Being also called "God." Not any more than man's "UNHOLY SPIRIT" becoming another human being.

"The Spirit OF Jesus Christ" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

"The Spirit OF the Father" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

"The Spirit OF the living God" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

How important is the understanding of the preposition "OF" in some 70 passages in both OT and OT!!!!!

Teach us grammar, Bill.[/color]
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Bill
Bill

August 31st, 2013, 8:27 pm #33

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]No, Bill, Acts 20:28 does not prove that "the Holy Ghost" is a separate Divine Being or Third Person that the Trinity Creed espouses.

1. The expression "the holy spirit" [capitalized by Trinity-influenced translators] is a descriptive element (improper noun "spirit" is modified by an adjective "holy"); it is not a proper name; it is not a Divine Being's name. [As a grammar specialist, you should know that ... should know better than that!]

2. Both "the Spirit of Jesus Christ" and "the Spirit of the Father," as well as numerous other expressions with the preposition "OF," refer to "the Holy Spirit."

Even Trinitarians know and believe that "the Spirit of God" IS "THE HOLY SPIRIT" or simply "THE SPIRIT." They're just ignoring the preposition "of" -- just like you do.

3. On that basis, it is "the holy Spirit OF God" (Eph. 4:30) that has made the elders overseers.

4. The message "the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers" was directed to the elders -- not to just any Christian. That you, Bill, were/are an elder, I have no way of knowing. I can only assume that you were/are an elder as stated in the second paragraph of your post.

Again, NO, Bill, Romans 8:26 does not indicate that "the holy spirit is a separate Divine Being or Third Person that the Trinity Creed espouses for the same reasons as already mentioned above. In fact, YOU MISSED the expression "but the Spirit ITSELF maketh intercession..." And here's the supporting cast: "[v. 16] The Spirit ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...."

The passages you presented contradict your own tenet that "the Spirit of God" be ASSIGNED a MASCULINE gender. "The Spirit ITSELF" shows the translators' inconsistencies and confusion when ASSIGNING the gender of God's holy spirit.

As a grammarian, Bill, how would you assign the gender to "itself"?[/color]
Of course Acts 20:28 doesn't prove anything to YOU, Donnie, because you've fixated on and recycled the preposition "OF" so much and for so long that you're incapable of perceiving the Holy Spirit any other way. Although many of us have different perceptions of Holy Spirit from your own, we don't begrudge your particular perception. To those of us who are just as discerning but far less narrow-minded, however, Acts 20:28 and other verses are proof enough that the Holy Spirit is a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus.

Donnie, you certainly have the right to your personal perception of the Holy Spirit based solely on the proposition "OF," and you have the right to deny all other perceptions. But as I said earlier, it's all a matter of personal perception, even if you will not or cannot accept that.
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Bill
Bill

August 31st, 2013, 8:37 pm #34

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill, were/are you an elder? I'm just wondering because of your statement: "made us overseers." May I remind you that the message in Acts was directed to the elders and not just to any Christian?

The mention of "the HOLY SPIRIT" in Acts 20:28 does not prove what you and the Trinitarians espouse -- the Third Person, separate Divine Being also called "God." Not any more than man's "UNHOLY SPIRIT" becoming another human being.

"The Spirit OF Jesus Christ" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

"The Spirit OF the Father" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

"The Spirit OF the living God" is a.k.a. "the Holy Spirit."

How important is the understanding of the preposition "OF" in some 70 passages in both OT and OT!!!!!

Teach us grammar, Bill.[/color]
Donnie, the preposition "OF" is so STUCK in your mind that you really cannot see any other verses in the Bible as leading to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity who is neither God nor Jesus. Your narrow-mindedness has indeed blinded you to the fact that people's different perceptions of the Holy Spirit, based on other verses, are just as valid as yours.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 31st, 2013, 8:42 pm #35

Don't know where Ken keeps coming up with "antichrist," because no one here is denying that Jesus is the Christ or that God is Lord. Maybe Ken thinks that if our perception of the Holy Spirit is another distinct, non-person spiritual entity, just as God and Jesus are non-person spiritual entities, then we are "antichrists." That is merely Ken's personal opinion, but the New Testament says NOTHING to the effect that perceiving the Holy Spirit as another distinct, non-person spiritual entity makes us "antichrists."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The "Godhead" is precisely described in Colossians 2. "The Spirit" or "the Holy Spirit" is NOT involved here -- contrary to "the Godhead" being equated to "the Trinity."

Colossians 2 CLEARLY mentions: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ His Son. [By the way, just as those salutations from the book of Acts to Jude: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ His Son.]

The epistle summarizes it in Colossians 2:9 -- "For in him [the Lord Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily."

"Fulness" does not mean "partial" or "in part." It is between (1) the Father and (2) His Son Jesus Christ. No more, no less.

What's involved here is that in "the Godhead," II John 1:7 states that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh." There is not another [third] Divine Being involved in the process.

I John 2:22 says -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

While it is true that no Christian denies "the Father and the Son," is not our prerogative to add a third Divine Being [non-existent according to the Scripture] to the Godhead, as the Trinity Creed espouses.

Adding a Third Divine Being is going beyond the truth that the Godhead involves "the Father and the Son." That is the definition of "antichrist" ... anti-Christ, anti-Godhead as the Scripture clearly explains it.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 31st, 2013, 8:55 pm #36

Donnie, the preposition "OF" is so STUCK in your mind that you really cannot see any other verses in the Bible as leading to the conclusion that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity who is neither God nor Jesus. Your narrow-mindedness has indeed blinded you to the fact that people's different perceptions of the Holy Spirit, based on other verses, are just as valid as yours.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]No, Bill, covering the significance of the preposition "OF" is not being narrow-minded. It is ignoring its significance that is despicable.

I'm convinced now that the preposition "OF" negates your stance on the Trinity Doctrine. You will never accept the truth in Ephesians 4:30 -- "the holy Spirit OF God." Bill, that expression does NOT say: "the holy Spirit IS God." I've given up on you for not even having the capability to see the colossal difference. Even if given another simple example that "the unholy spirit OF man" is not the same as "the unholy spirit IS man."

You have NEVER cited a single scripture that identifies or proves the Third Person, Divine Being "Holy Spirit" as "God."

Start diagramming Ephesians 4:30 --

"And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 31st, 2013, 9:02 pm #37

Of course Acts 20:28 doesn't prove anything to YOU, Donnie, because you've fixated on and recycled the preposition "OF" so much and for so long that you're incapable of perceiving the Holy Spirit any other way. Although many of us have different perceptions of Holy Spirit from your own, we don't begrudge your particular perception. To those of us who are just as discerning but far less narrow-minded, however, Acts 20:28 and other verses are proof enough that the Holy Spirit is a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus.

Donnie, you certainly have the right to your personal perception of the Holy Spirit based solely on the proposition "OF," and you have the right to deny all other perceptions. But as I said earlier, it's all a matter of personal perception, even if you will not or cannot accept that.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]It is really unfortunate that "OF" is insignificant to you.

It is unfortunate that you ignored "itself" in reference to "the Spirit itself."

I'm not going to ask you to diagram the 70 passages that use the preposition "OF" in those instances.

You can at least diagram Ephesians 4:30 --

"And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

English professor?[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 31st, 2013, 10:15 pm #38

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The "Godhead" is precisely described in Colossians 2. "The Spirit" or "the Holy Spirit" is NOT involved here -- contrary to "the Godhead" being equated to "the Trinity."

Colossians 2 CLEARLY mentions: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ His Son. [By the way, just as those salutations from the book of Acts to Jude: (1) God the Father and (2) the Lord Jesus Christ His Son.]

The epistle summarizes it in Colossians 2:9 -- "For in him [the Lord Jesus Christ] dwelleth all the FULNESS of the Godhead bodily."

"Fulness" does not mean "partial" or "in part." It is between (1) the Father and (2) His Son Jesus Christ. No more, no less.

What's involved here is that in "the Godhead," II John 1:7 states that "Jesus Christ is come in the flesh." There is not another [third] Divine Being involved in the process.

I John 2:22 says -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

While it is true that no Christian denies "the Father and the Son," is not our prerogative to add a third Divine Being [non-existent according to the Scripture] to the Godhead, as the Trinity Creed espouses.

Adding a Third Divine Being is going beyond the truth that the Godhead involves "the Father and the Son." That is the definition of "antichrist" ... anti-Christ, anti-Godhead as the Scripture clearly explains it.[/color]
The Spirit OF Christ does not leave any room for legalistic loopholes.

I John 2:22 says -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

People who do not know how to read think they can drive a Mac Truck between Father and Son.

Father is God (theos): Son is Lord (Kurios). Only ONE is the GOD but God made the man Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord and Christ. From reading we know that Jesus was NOT Lord and Christ before He was MADE TO BE.

The ONE GOD breathes (spirit) what the Son SPEAKS without "metron." That most often means "Without METER." Speak is the OPPOSITE of song which now includes METER.

There is ONE GOD the Father and ONE Mediator between Man and God, the Man Jesus Christ. As the Spirit Comforter in John 14 His name is Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Sixth grade reading and mininmal reverence should not DEMAND that a spirit entity be REQUIRED to intercede between Father and Son.

If you do not teach the Spirit God (Theos) and the human Lord (Kurios) then John says you are ANTICHRIST because you are so far gone that you do not think that Jesus of Nazareth was capable without a HANDLER.

When inspiration States Father-Son you despise the Spirit OF Christ for leaving a legalistic loophole.

Jesus now Holy Spirit still the head of His Church and High priest, is the FULLNESS OF DEITY God presents as the IMAGE of the invisible.
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Bill
Bill

August 31st, 2013, 10:33 pm #39

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]No, Bill, covering the significance of the preposition "OF" is not being narrow-minded. It is ignoring its significance that is despicable.

I'm convinced now that the preposition "OF" negates your stance on the Trinity Doctrine. You will never accept the truth in Ephesians 4:30 -- "the holy Spirit OF God." Bill, that expression does NOT say: "the holy Spirit IS God." I've given up on you for not even having the capability to see the colossal difference. Even if given another simple example that "the unholy spirit OF man" is not the same as "the unholy spirit IS man."

You have NEVER cited a single scripture that identifies or proves the Third Person, Divine Being "Holy Spirit" as "God."

Start diagramming Ephesians 4:30 --

"And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."[/color]
Donnie, you shouldn't be disturbed so much that some folks just perceive the Holy Spirit differently than you do. Your perception, based on "the spirit OF...," is just as valid as others, who base their perception on passages such as Acts 20:28 and Romans 8:26. Your denial of those other passages indicates that you think your perception is the ONLY correct one. That is arrogance.

A person is not narrow-minded if he can accept passages that mention "the spirit OF..." On the other hand, that same person IS hopelessly narrow-minded if he flatly denies that the example passages previously mentioned show the Holy spirit to be a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Jesus. So how can the Holy Spirit to some be "the spirit OF God" AND to others be a distinct, non-person entity? Some would scoff and say, "Impossible!!" Oh ye of little faith! Remember that with God, all things are possible.
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Bill
Bill

August 31st, 2013, 10:40 pm #40

The Spirit OF Christ does not leave any room for legalistic loopholes.

I John 2:22 says -- "He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son."

People who do not know how to read think they can drive a Mac Truck between Father and Son.

Father is God (theos): Son is Lord (Kurios). Only ONE is the GOD but God made the man Jesus of Nazareth TO BE both Lord and Christ. From reading we know that Jesus was NOT Lord and Christ before He was MADE TO BE.

The ONE GOD breathes (spirit) what the Son SPEAKS without "metron." That most often means "Without METER." Speak is the OPPOSITE of song which now includes METER.

There is ONE GOD the Father and ONE Mediator between Man and God, the Man Jesus Christ. As the Spirit Comforter in John 14 His name is Jesus Christ the Righteous.

Sixth grade reading and mininmal reverence should not DEMAND that a spirit entity be REQUIRED to intercede between Father and Son.

If you do not teach the Spirit God (Theos) and the human Lord (Kurios) then John says you are ANTICHRIST because you are so far gone that you do not think that Jesus of Nazareth was capable without a HANDLER.

When inspiration States Father-Son you despise the Spirit OF Christ for leaving a legalistic loophole.

Jesus now Holy Spirit still the head of His Church and High priest, is the FULLNESS OF DEITY God presents as the IMAGE of the invisible.
Who denies Father and Son here at CM? Just as Donnie recycles "the spirit OF...." Ken recycles "antichrist." Apparently there are no more fresh, original topics to discuss. Maybe it's time for Donnie to start yet another thread about the Holy Spirit. Maybe Dave would like to start another thread about instrumental music.
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