Vacation Bible School

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 30th, 2013, 2:31 pm #21

You brought up the im?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 31st, 2013, 5:40 am #22

Ken,
This discussion used to be about Vacation Bible School, right? See what I mean?


Have a great weekend Ken.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Greetings, Dave!

No.

Yes, you're partly correct -- the discussion is/should be about VBS, but the initial post expressed concern about materials used especially those not published by our own brotherhood. It said: "... I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials."

Bible students should really be concerned about doctrines and creeds that have been "acquired" especially those from the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church. The "Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed" is a great example of that. I'm not surprised that even "the Holy Ghost of the Virgin Mary" is in the Creed.

As a very serious student of the Bible, I find that out of the "evidences" for and against the invented Trinity Doctrine [authorized and approved in 325AD, 381AD] -- which had existed several centuries before the KJV of 1611 and other versions of the Bible -- the preposition "OF" in several expressions associated with "the Holy Spirit" really makes a strong case against the man-concocted Trinity Doctrine.

There is a colossal difference between:

(1) The TRUTH: "The holy Spirit OF[/color] God" [Ephesians 4:30]
----------------------------- and -----------------------------
(2) The TRINITY CREED: The 3rd Person, separate Being "Holy Spirit <font size="5">IS
God"


Yes, Dave, the "Trinitarian tilt" is just one of those doctrinal matters we ought to consider, research, study, learn -- not just instrumental music.

The Restoration principle is still applicable today -- the REAL Law of Silence: "We speak where the Bible speaks, and we are silent where the Bible is silent."</font>
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Bill
Bill

August 31st, 2013, 1:50 pm #23

Donnie has complained about those who "recycle" arguments (especially the arguments he rejects), yet he continues to "recycle" his arguments about the preposition "OF" in thread after thread. Therefore, it is only fair to recall again those previously cited verses that more than indicate the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not God, but a distinct entity nonetheless.

For example, in Acts 20:28, the Holy Spirit makes us overseers of the Church. In Romans 8:26, the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us. Of course, there are other verses.

People can close their minds and fixate on those verses with the preposition "OF" from now until Judgment Day, but we must consider the WHOLE Word of God, which ultimately does show us that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not a physical "person," but a distinct entity nonetheless.

And it is also fair to mention yet again that the New Testament gives absolutely NO indication that our eternal salvation depends on how we perceive the Holy Spirit. Therefore, those who subscribe to "the spirit OF..." are just as entitled to that perception as those who subscribe to the perception that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity.

As long as we believe that the Holy Spirit EXISTS and functions, the rest is all a matter of personal perception.
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A-Won
A-Won

August 31st, 2013, 3:31 pm #24

You brought up the im?
Donnie, perhaps you wear blinders when studying about the Holy Spirit? Of course we all have an opinion. Chill a bit and read the article.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://getwellchurchofchrist.org/articl ... e0003.html

"Perhaps the best way to understand the operation of the Holy Spirit is to consider the degree of His bestowal upon men. Preliminarily, however, we are reminded that the Holy Spirit is a person, the third member of the Godhead or Deity (II Cor. 13:14; Rom. 1:20)."
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 31st, 2013, 3:40 pm #25

When I was rather young and VBS was new in the churches of Christ there was a bit of controversy about it. I think there still is. I fully agree with the purposes and goals of VBS, but I wonder about the materials a bit. In my congregation, this year we are going to use materials by Group Publishing. I do not see any particular flags, but I have not reviewed the materials in detail, either. It is not necessarily my job to do that. I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials.

Occasionally, I will see a review of VBS materials published by Truth Magazine, but I do not subscribe to that magazine.

Who out there has reviewed the potential VBS materials for 2013. I wonder why we do not lean more towards materials published by our own brotherhood, yet vetted by a congregation's elders?
William responds:Therefore, it is only fair to recall again those previously cited verses that more than indicate the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not God, but a distinct entity nonetheless.

That's true: His name is Jesus Christ the Righteous as the "another" Comforter 2 John 1.

For example, in Acts 20:28, the Holy Spirit makes us overseers of the Church.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
.....to FEED the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


That's True: His name is Jesus Christ: It is called The Church of Christ who shed his own blood. Since God did not shed His blood, this says that the HOLY GHOST is HE that purchased the Church with HIS own blood. In His glorified state Jesus is not flesh and blood but He is SPIRIT which has never and can never define an entity other than demons. When Jesus gave the SOP (Psallo) Mark, Satan ENTERED INTO Judas.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the GIFT of CHRIST.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When HE ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and [Christ] gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
..... that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:11 And HE gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
.....and some, pastors and teachers;


Elders are the only Pastor-Teachers in a congregation: If they are gifted by Christ they will as a MARK "teach that which HAS BEEN taught." Jesus said that His Words which had been taught ARE SPIRIT (John 6:63). Words speak: they are not divine entities.

Christ Who inspired Apostles to record His witness as WORD and God gave Him the role as Holy (wholly) Spirit. Inspiration says that CHRIST gave gifts to OVERSEERS. Their gift was to preach the WORD by that Holy Spirit Sent back at Pentecost.

He did not give men to write ANTI-BIBLICAL sermons: He did not gift a single singer or instrument player. In fact, in Ezekiel 33 these HYPOCRITES are named as self-speakers, singers and instrument players. In addition the Greeks and Paul said that selling the word at retail is called ADULTERY and the Greeks knew them as PROSTITUTES.

TEACHING is the CENI which people CLAIM they cannot find.. Their task was to CAST OUT all of the cunning craftsmen (speakers, singerss, instrument players) SO THAT they could PREACH the Word by READING the Word.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Edification means EDUCATION: Christians are Disciples of Christ and they go to A SCHOOL OF CHRIST and not a pagan "worship ritual" working really hard to try to prop up Jesus.

John says that if you deny the ONE God the Father and ONE Jesus made to be both Lord and Christ and Spirit then you are an ANTICHRIST.</font>
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Bill
Bill

August 31st, 2013, 4:00 pm #26

I do believe if Jesus made us overseers of the Church instead of the Holy Spirit, then the New Testament would have said so. But NO, the New Testament says that it is the HOLY SPIRIT who makes us overseers of the Church.

But if Ken wants to stick with "the spirit OF...." that's fine. Again, he is just as entitled to his personal perception of the Holy Spirit as others are equally entitled to perceive the Holy Spirit as a distinct, non-person entity who is neither God nor Christ.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 31st, 2013, 6:46 pm #27

Donnie, perhaps you wear blinders when studying about the Holy Spirit? Of course we all have an opinion. Chill a bit and read the article.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

http://getwellchurchofchrist.org/articl ... e0003.html

"Perhaps the best way to understand the operation of the Holy Spirit is to consider the degree of His bestowal upon men. Preliminarily, however, we are reminded that the Holy Spirit is a person, the third member of the Godhead or Deity (II Cor. 13:14; Rom. 1:20)."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]A-Won,

I'm not wearing blinders. That's the reason why I made that MAJOR SHIFT:

(1) FROM: believing the invented Trinity Creed [invented by the Pope, the eventual Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Emperor with pagan background] ...

(2) TO: believing and trusting in what the Scripture teaches about GOD's holy Spirit. WHOSE [possessive] Spirit? Not the devil's spirit! Not man's spirit! But God's Spirit!

Preposition "OF":

That's what stated in the expression "the holy Spirit OF God" (EPHESIANS 4:30). God is the possessor. The "Holy Spirit" is His possession. The possessor is NOT the possession.

The Scripture has NEVER indicated the Trinity's version of "the Holy Spirit" as the third [why not first or second?] Person also called God.

The Restoration Movement, Alexander Campbell and others DID NOT endorse or propagate the man-invented Trinity Doctrine. Even the early hymn publishers and editors in the brotherhood chose "God overall and blest eternally" over "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity" in the popular hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy."

Regardless of what Wayne Jackson and the Getwell church say about their acquired Trinity doctrine, Campbell and RM would not endorse the man-made creed -- even if it is that popular worldwide.

RM agrees with the Scripture and disagrees with the speculation [man's deductive reasoning].

The "Spirit of Jesus Christ" or "the Spirit of the Father" is "the Holy Spirit." One cannot separate "the Spirit" from Whom it belongs.

Now, let's see who is wearing those blinders?[/color]
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Bill
Bill

August 31st, 2013, 7:07 pm #28

William responds:Therefore, it is only fair to recall again those previously cited verses that more than indicate the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not God, but a distinct entity nonetheless.

That's true: His name is Jesus Christ the Righteous as the "another" Comforter 2 John 1.

For example, in Acts 20:28, the Holy Spirit makes us overseers of the Church.

Acts 20:27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock,
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,
.....to FEED the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.


That's True: His name is Jesus Christ: It is called The Church of Christ who shed his own blood. Since God did not shed His blood, this says that the HOLY GHOST is HE that purchased the Church with HIS own blood. In His glorified state Jesus is not flesh and blood but He is SPIRIT which has never and can never define an entity other than demons. When Jesus gave the SOP (Psallo) Mark, Satan ENTERED INTO Judas.

Ephesians 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the GIFT of CHRIST.
Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When HE ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and [Christ] gave gifts unto men.
Ephesians 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens,
..... that he might fill all things.)
Ephesians 4:11 And HE gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists;
.....and some, pastors and teachers;


Elders are the only Pastor-Teachers in a congregation: If they are gifted by Christ they will as a MARK "teach that which HAS BEEN taught." Jesus said that His Words which had been taught ARE SPIRIT (John 6:63). Words speak: they are not divine entities.

Christ Who inspired Apostles to record His witness as WORD and God gave Him the role as Holy (wholly) Spirit. Inspiration says that CHRIST gave gifts to OVERSEERS. Their gift was to preach the WORD by that Holy Spirit Sent back at Pentecost.

He did not give men to write ANTI-BIBLICAL sermons: He did not gift a single singer or instrument player. In fact, in Ezekiel 33 these HYPOCRITES are named as self-speakers, singers and instrument players. In addition the Greeks and Paul said that selling the word at retail is called ADULTERY and the Greeks knew them as PROSTITUTES.

TEACHING is the CENI which people CLAIM they cannot find.. Their task was to CAST OUT all of the cunning craftsmen (speakers, singerss, instrument players) SO THAT they could PREACH the Word by READING the Word.

Ephesians 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Edification means EDUCATION: Christians are Disciples of Christ and they go to A SCHOOL OF CHRIST and not a pagan "worship ritual" working really hard to try to prop up Jesus.

John says that if you deny the ONE God the Father and ONE Jesus made to be both Lord and Christ and Spirit then you are an ANTICHRIST.</font>
Don't know where Ken keeps coming up with "antichrist," because no one here is denying that Jesus is the Christ or that God is Lord. Maybe Ken thinks that if our perception of the Holy Spirit is another distinct, non-person spiritual entity, just as God and Jesus are non-person spiritual entities, then we are "antichrists." That is merely Ken's personal opinion, but the New Testament says NOTHING to the effect that perceiving the Holy Spirit as another distinct, non-person spiritual entity makes us "antichrists."
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Bill
Bill

August 31st, 2013, 7:09 pm #29

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]A-Won,

I'm not wearing blinders. That's the reason why I made that MAJOR SHIFT:

(1) FROM: believing the invented Trinity Creed [invented by the Pope, the eventual Roman Catholic Church and the Roman Emperor with pagan background] ...

(2) TO: believing and trusting in what the Scripture teaches about GOD's holy Spirit. WHOSE [possessive] Spirit? Not the devil's spirit! Not man's spirit! But God's Spirit!

Preposition "OF":

That's what stated in the expression "the holy Spirit OF God" (EPHESIANS 4:30). God is the possessor. The "Holy Spirit" is His possession. The possessor is NOT the possession.

The Scripture has NEVER indicated the Trinity's version of "the Holy Spirit" as the third [why not first or second?] Person also called God.

The Restoration Movement, Alexander Campbell and others DID NOT endorse or propagate the man-invented Trinity Doctrine. Even the early hymn publishers and editors in the brotherhood chose "God overall and blest eternally" over "God in Three Persons, Blessed Trinity" in the popular hymn "Holy, Holy, Holy."

Regardless of what Wayne Jackson and the Getwell church say about their acquired Trinity doctrine, Campbell and RM would not endorse the man-made creed -- even if it is that popular worldwide.

RM agrees with the Scripture and disagrees with the speculation [man's deductive reasoning].

The "Spirit of Jesus Christ" or "the Spirit of the Father" is "the Holy Spirit." One cannot separate "the Spirit" from Whom it belongs.

Now, let's see who is wearing those blinders?[/color]
Donnie continues to "recycle" the preposition "OF."
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 31st, 2013, 7:37 pm #30

Donnie has complained about those who "recycle" arguments (especially the arguments he rejects), yet he continues to "recycle" his arguments about the preposition "OF" in thread after thread. Therefore, it is only fair to recall again those previously cited verses that more than indicate the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not God, but a distinct entity nonetheless.

For example, in Acts 20:28, the Holy Spirit makes us overseers of the Church. In Romans 8:26, the Holy Spirit makes intercession for us. Of course, there are other verses.

People can close their minds and fixate on those verses with the preposition "OF" from now until Judgment Day, but we must consider the WHOLE Word of God, which ultimately does show us that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity. Not a physical "person," but a distinct entity nonetheless.

And it is also fair to mention yet again that the New Testament gives absolutely NO indication that our eternal salvation depends on how we perceive the Holy Spirit. Therefore, those who subscribe to "the spirit OF..." are just as entitled to that perception as those who subscribe to the perception that the Holy Spirit is a distinct entity.

As long as we believe that the Holy Spirit EXISTS and functions, the rest is all a matter of personal perception.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]No, Bill, Acts 20:28 does not prove that "the Holy Ghost" is a separate Divine Being or Third Person that the Trinity Creed espouses.

1. The expression "the holy spirit" [capitalized by Trinity-influenced translators] is a descriptive element (improper noun "spirit" is modified by an adjective "holy"); it is not a proper name; it is not a Divine Being's name. [As a grammar specialist, you should know that ... should know better than that!]

2. Both "the Spirit of Jesus Christ" and "the Spirit of the Father," as well as numerous other expressions with the preposition "OF," refer to "the Holy Spirit."

Even Trinitarians know and believe that "the Spirit of God" IS "THE HOLY SPIRIT" or simply "THE SPIRIT." They're just ignoring the preposition "of" -- just like you do.

3. On that basis, it is "the holy Spirit OF God" (Eph. 4:30) that has made the elders overseers.

4. The message "the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers" was directed to the elders -- not to just any Christian. That you, Bill, were/are an elder, I have no way of knowing. I can only assume that you were/are an elder as stated in the second paragraph of your post.

Again, NO, Bill, Romans 8:26 does not indicate that "the holy spirit is a separate Divine Being or Third Person that the Trinity Creed espouses for the same reasons as already mentioned above. In fact, YOU MISSED the expression "but the Spirit ITSELF maketh intercession..." And here's the supporting cast: "[v. 16] The Spirit ITSELF beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God...."

The passages you presented contradict your own tenet that "the Spirit of God" be ASSIGNED a MASCULINE gender. "The Spirit ITSELF" shows the translators' inconsistencies and confusion when ASSIGNING the gender of God's holy spirit.

As a grammarian, Bill, how would you assign the gender to "itself"?[/color]
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