Bill
Bill

September 21st, 2013, 4:50 pm #191

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Here 'tis, Dave:
[/color]
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If you claim that the Word wasn't Jesus, then Who was the Word?
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[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]By your assertion, the following would be:

The Original:
[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. (John 1:1)
    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]The same was in the beginning with God. (John 1:2)
    ... ... ...
    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave's Revision:
[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]In the beginning was Jesus, and Jesus was with God, and Jesus was God. (John 1:1)
    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]Jesus was in the beginning with God. (John 1:2)
    ... ... ...
    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And Jesus was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (John 1:14)[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave, you said: "That doesn't even make sense." No, it certainly doesn't make sense.

That's why we need to consider the timing here. Let's leave "the Word in the beginning with God" alone. Jesus was not "the Word" (Logos) in the beginning [Ken is correct]. The Word was made flesh only a couple of millenia ago.[/color]
Saying that Jesus was not the Word (logos) who was with God in the beginning is stretching a point that borders on absurdity. The heavenly being Who became a man on earth, Who took the name "Jesus" at that time, and Who remains the "Son of God" has always been with God from the beginning. As John 1:14 tells us, "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." The Word became "Jesus" in the flesh; nevertheless, for purposes of identification, we still call the "Word" by His earthly name, "Jesus," even though He returned to heaven to be with God, just as He had been in the beginning.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 21st, 2013, 5:09 pm #192

Try this question on for size Donnie.....

If Jesus wasn't the Word made flesh, in verse 14, then Who was?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Who was?

It was the Word (Logos) Who was in the beginning with God. Let's not change that fact.

In verse 14, the Word was made flesh (the birth of Jesus) only a couple of millenia ago. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...," remember John 3:16 and I John 4:9?

Timing.[/color]
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Dave
Dave

September 21st, 2013, 5:16 pm #193

When I was rather young and VBS was new in the churches of Christ there was a bit of controversy about it. I think there still is. I fully agree with the purposes and goals of VBS, but I wonder about the materials a bit. In my congregation, this year we are going to use materials by Group Publishing. I do not see any particular flags, but I have not reviewed the materials in detail, either. It is not necessarily my job to do that. I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials.

Occasionally, I will see a review of VBS materials published by Truth Magazine, but I do not subscribe to that magazine.

Who out there has reviewed the potential VBS materials for 2013. I wonder why we do not lean more towards materials published by our own brotherhood, yet vetted by a congregation's elders?
If Jesus was the Word made flesh, then Jesus was the Word in the beginning.
It can't be any other way.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. It isn't an IT, but a Who, therefore HE in verse 2.

Does the Word change from verse 1 up to verse 14 when the Word becomes flesh?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 21st, 2013, 5:20 pm #194

When I was rather young and VBS was new in the churches of Christ there was a bit of controversy about it. I think there still is. I fully agree with the purposes and goals of VBS, but I wonder about the materials a bit. In my congregation, this year we are going to use materials by Group Publishing. I do not see any particular flags, but I have not reviewed the materials in detail, either. It is not necessarily my job to do that. I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials.

Occasionally, I will see a review of VBS materials published by Truth Magazine, but I do not subscribe to that magazine.

Who out there has reviewed the potential VBS materials for 2013. I wonder why we do not lean more towards materials published by our own brotherhood, yet vetted by a congregation's elders?
Neo-trinitians (Polytheists) such as Rubel Shell says that John God his IDEA from the Greek LOGOS who is Hermes or Mercury.

http://www.piney.com/RSLogos.html

Rubel Shelly and John York compares Mary to Cherokee-Sal

http://www.piney.com/RSLukeXmasSongs.html

That is ANTI-Christian because it says that John just fabricated the "bible". That is why the 'progressives' and wineskinners have REVERTED TO THE ARCHAIC and have sub-consciously or UNconsciously or terminal-evil RESTORED the Babylon mother of harlots. Euripides, ION describes the ALWAYS-PAGAN triads and the neo-pagans using HERMES (Hermeneutics) as their "son" have no option but to RESTORE Apollo, Abaddon or Apollyon as their FATHER. Because the "spirit" speaks to them and in paganism she is the MOTHER and the "emasculated priests" are her ministers.

http://www.piney.com/Euripides.Ion.html

The Jews had been ABANDONED to Worship the Starry host.
In the "Progressive" intentional diversion, WHAT did the Jews Worship?
Well, they worshipped the Starry Host: Amos and Stephen gives us some NAMES.

Babylon had: [1] Anu [2] Bel and [3] Ena;
India had: [1] Brahma [2] Vishnu and [3] Shiva;
Roman [1] Jupiter [2] Juno and [3] Minerva;
Greece [1] Zeus] [2] Apollo and [3} Hermes


Hermes became best known as the swift messenger of the gods. Euripides, in his prologue to the play Ion, has Hermes introduce himself as follows:

Atlas, who wears on back of bronze the ancient
Abode of the gods in heaven, had a daughter
Whose name was Maia, born of a goddess:
She lay with Zeus, and bore me, Hermes,
Servant of the immortals.

Hermes is thus of a double origin. His grandfather is Atlas, the demigod who holds up heaven, but Maia, his mother, already has a goddess as her mother, while Hermes' father, Zeus, is of course the highest of the gods. It is tempting to interpret this as saying that from worldly toil (Atlas), with a heavy infusion of divine inspiration, comes forth consciousness, as symbolized by Hermes.


That is why it is POPULAR to be an ANTI-CHRIST: Isn't it strange that in prophecy and fulfilment God picked Judas whose Judas-Bag was for carrying the mouthpieces of wind instruments. Jesus SIGNALLED Satan to enter Judas when he was fed the hand-ground SOP: Sop has the same root meaning as PSALLO.

If you say that the Spirit of the Universe needs a Spirit PERSON to ENABLE the Made-Flesh LOGOS then you ARE as defined by John an ANTI-Christ.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 21st, 2013, 5:43 pm #195

The WORD of God was never a person IN ADDITION to the God Who SPOKE Words. The Word of God is wordS. God "begets" His own words and in classical trinity origins the SON of God is the WORD which He speaks

For our feeble mind, God Thinks and Breaths (not a people by definition)He ARTICULATES His own WORD (words) without needing a person to prevent Him from being an utter failure.

God breathed into Jesus and what came OUT of Jesus was the same WORD of God made audible through flesh.

If I speak WORDS into a Telephone, my daughter hears my WORDS because her telephone REPEATS exactly what I tell the telephone speaks to her. My words are made FLESH. Jesus declares that He is the "telephone" because he never speaks any words on His own but only what He hears from the Father Who is in that case IN him.

Jesus returns to God Who sent Him. Our Spirits return to God Who sent them. We are not God persons although some are sent for purposes.

Jesus BECAME the Son of God when He obeyed in baptism. We become the sons of God when we obey and request A holy spirit.

Jesus was different in that He continues as HOLY SPIRIT to be the king over his kingdom and high priests and ONLY TEACHER and ONLY when elders Teach that which Has been taught." That is why elders and preachers and musicians INTEND to keep Jesus silent: that's ok because many are called or invited but FEW (tiny number) are chosen as proven by their "diligently seeking him." That will NOT happen in the morning in any church you know about because the Kingdom is within us and DOES NOT COME TO RELIGIOUS OBSERVATIONS.

Elders and preachers and musicians CANNOT be the sons of God because they work REALLY HARD to scramble the "wireless" message from God. Just watch in the morning and hope that Jesus doesn't come on sunday.



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Bill
Bill

September 21st, 2013, 7:00 pm #196

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Who was?

It was the Word (Logos) Who was in the beginning with God. Let's not change that fact.

In verse 14, the Word was made flesh (the birth of Jesus) only a couple of millenia ago. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son...," remember John 3:16 and I John 4:9?

Timing.[/color]
So you're basically quibbling over what to call the divine being/entity Who was with God in the beginning (John 1:1). You say it was Logos, not Jesus. Others see Jesus and Logos as two names for the same divine being, because the Word/Logos became the man Jesus on earth. Now even though Jesus resides in heaven, we still refer to Him by His earthly name, "Jesus," and not as Logos. How many times have you heard prayers ended with, "In the name of Logos, Amen"? We pray in the name of Jesus, not Logos.

If we believe that the divine being Who would become "Jesus" on earth is the same Logos Who was with God in the beginning, are our souls in jeopardy? Are we "antichrists"? Of the four verses in the New Testament that define antichrist, none of them explicitly mentions Logos or the Holy Spirit. Yet there are people who imply that anyone is an antichrist who believes the Holy Spirit is a distinct, divine being; those same people also imply that anyone is an antichrist who believes that Logos and Jesus are two names for the same divine being.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 21st, 2013, 7:30 pm #197

If Jesus was the Word made flesh, then Jesus was the Word in the beginning.
It can't be any other way.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. It isn't an IT, but a Who, therefore HE in verse 2.

Does the Word change from verse 1 up to verse 14 when the Word becomes flesh?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

Why can't we have the patience of Job?

I have already provided stats: the name "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ" or "Christ" or "Christ Jesus" is NOT referenced in the Old Testament a SINGLE time!!! Although there were prophecies in the OT concerning Christ and concerning the church, His kingdom. Both prophecies were not fulfilled until a little over 2000 years ago.

In regard to verse 2, there's a major split among translations. Of the 22 I investigated, 9 made reference to "He" whereas 13 made reference to "the same" [the Word] as "was in the beginning with God." (This is the same dilemma as in the capitalization of the word "spirit" [which is an improper noun] and certain translators automatically designating the personal pronoun "He" to God's holy spirit. And that's presumptive.)

"The Word," just as is "the Spirit," is NOT A PERSON. The Word became "a person" when "the Word" was made flesh.

That's why it is incorrect [just as you said, "it doesn't make sense] to substitute "Jesus" for "the Word." Yes, in verse 14:

(1) And the Word was made flesh (Jesus in human form) ----- Yes!!!!
-------------------- OR {?} ----------------------
(2) And Jesus was made Jesus ----- NOT!!!!!

The Word (LOGOS) was not made flesh until two millenia ago.[/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

September 21st, 2013, 7:54 pm #198

The WORD of God was never a person IN ADDITION to the God Who SPOKE Words. The Word of God is wordS. God "begets" His own words and in classical trinity origins the SON of God is the WORD which He speaks

For our feeble mind, God Thinks and Breaths (not a people by definition)He ARTICULATES His own WORD (words) without needing a person to prevent Him from being an utter failure.

God breathed into Jesus and what came OUT of Jesus was the same WORD of God made audible through flesh.

If I speak WORDS into a Telephone, my daughter hears my WORDS because her telephone REPEATS exactly what I tell the telephone speaks to her. My words are made FLESH. Jesus declares that He is the "telephone" because he never speaks any words on His own but only what He hears from the Father Who is in that case IN him.

Jesus returns to God Who sent Him. Our Spirits return to God Who sent them. We are not God persons although some are sent for purposes.

Jesus BECAME the Son of God when He obeyed in baptism. We become the sons of God when we obey and request A holy spirit.

Jesus was different in that He continues as HOLY SPIRIT to be the king over his kingdom and high priests and ONLY TEACHER and ONLY when elders Teach that which Has been taught." That is why elders and preachers and musicians INTEND to keep Jesus silent: that's ok because many are called or invited but FEW (tiny number) are chosen as proven by their "diligently seeking him." That will NOT happen in the morning in any church you know about because the Kingdom is within us and DOES NOT COME TO RELIGIOUS OBSERVATIONS.

Elders and preachers and musicians CANNOT be the sons of God because they work REALLY HARD to scramble the "wireless" message from God. Just watch in the morning and hope that Jesus doesn't come on sunday.



I am not aware of any text that says that JESUS was the WORD from all eternity or after His commission.

We have posted lots of SCRIPTURE which says that Jesus ARTICULATED or made GOD'S Word audible. What Jesus SPOKE was the WORD since WORDS are never people other than the fact that the ONE ONLY God of the universe IS the LOGOS or governing principle of the Word.

Neither the Hebrew nor Greek define spirit as a PERSON any more than God daughter, Wisdom is a person.

Jesus came to seek and save Lost Spirits: He didn't even pray for the WORLD PEOPLE. Scripture makes it clear that the Viper Race or Crooked Race are NOT what Jesus came to seek and save. It is simply NOT GIVEN to the World or Kosmos spirits to hear and understand. That is why Jesus spoke in parable to the Jewish Clergy because simply claiming the right to compose their own commandments PROVES that they are part of VAIN RELIGION.

God HIDES from the Wise or Sophists meaning Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites defined as self-speakers, singers and instrument players.

The modern "trinity" does not grasp the original meaning as they defined it as:

Thought
Breath
Words

When modern people promote the "trinity" by continuing to mouth it they MEAN that there are three members of the God family. If you try to promote God's BREATH (that's what it means) as a BEING or if you try to make the Spirit OF Christ into a separate being who has by SUCCESSION replaced the Jesus of the olden Bible.

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Bill
Bill

September 21st, 2013, 8:31 pm #199

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

Why can't we have the patience of Job?

I have already provided stats: the name "Jesus" or "Jesus Christ" or "Christ" or "Christ Jesus" is NOT referenced in the Old Testament a SINGLE time!!! Although there were prophecies in the OT concerning Christ and concerning the church, His kingdom. Both prophecies were not fulfilled until a little over 2000 years ago.

In regard to verse 2, there's a major split among translations. Of the 22 I investigated, 9 made reference to "He" whereas 13 made reference to "the same" [the Word] as "was in the beginning with God." (This is the same dilemma as in the capitalization of the word "spirit" [which is an improper noun] and certain translators automatically designating the personal pronoun "He" to God's holy spirit. And that's presumptive.)

"The Word," just as is "the Spirit," is NOT A PERSON. The Word became "a person" when "the Word" was made flesh.

That's why it is incorrect [just as you said, "it doesn't make sense] to substitute "Jesus" for "the Word." Yes, in verse 14:

(1) And the Word was made flesh (Jesus in human form) ----- Yes!!!!
-------------------- OR {?} ----------------------
(2) And Jesus was made Jesus ----- NOT!!!!!

The Word (LOGOS) was not made flesh until two millenia ago.[/color]
Jesus = Logos = Word.

These are three names or designations for the SAME divine entity. A new, divine entity did not emerge when the Word/Logos became Jesus in the flesh. The SAME divine entity who had been with God from the beginning just took a different form, whioh was human flesh. There should be no problem understanding this.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

September 21st, 2013, 8:34 pm #200

So you're basically quibbling over what to call the divine being/entity Who was with God in the beginning (John 1:1). You say it was Logos, not Jesus. Others see Jesus and Logos as two names for the same divine being, because the Word/Logos became the man Jesus on earth. Now even though Jesus resides in heaven, we still refer to Him by His earthly name, "Jesus," and not as Logos. How many times have you heard prayers ended with, "In the name of Logos, Amen"? We pray in the name of Jesus, not Logos.

If we believe that the divine being Who would become "Jesus" on earth is the same Logos Who was with God in the beginning, are our souls in jeopardy? Are we "antichrists"? Of the four verses in the New Testament that define antichrist, none of them explicitly mentions Logos or the Holy Spirit. Yet there are people who imply that anyone is an antichrist who believes the Holy Spirit is a distinct, divine being; those same people also imply that anyone is an antichrist who believes that Logos and Jesus are two names for the same divine being.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Context, Bill. As well as the chronological sequence of events.

Context: "the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed."[/color]
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