Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 14th, 2013, 3:21 am #11

Scripture quoted part of Acts 20:28, which says, "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood" (KJV).

Paul says that it is the HOLY GHOST who makes us overseers of the Church. Hmmm. Now even though Paul mentions nothing about the Holy Ghost in his salutations (which some interpret to mean Paul doesn't regard the Holy Spirit as a "person"), based on Acts 20:28, it surely sounds more like Paul DOES regard the Holy Spirit as a "person."
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Good quote by Scripture.

The word "us" in Bill's remark ("... who makes us overseers..."). Were/are you an overseer of the flock?

The passage quoted is an excellent reference.

Problem is that Bill gets overly excited at the mention of "the Holy Ghost" and automatically [as preconditioned] perceives a [any] ghost as a person.

I do not see the word "who" in the passage. (In fact, there are quite a few passages making reference to "the holy Spirit" as "which" [rather than "who" or "whom"], as "itself" [rather than "him" or "himself"] -- perhaps another sub-topic concerning the Spirit.)

As much as it has been discussed, an astute Bible student should already be scripturally-oriented to the truth that "the Spirit of the Lord, the living God" is "the Holy Spirit" spoken of in the Bible.

We can NEVER separate "the holy Spirit OF God" from God Himself ... and create a separate Divine Being out of His Spirit.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 14th, 2013, 3:40 am #12

Just as some folks regard the Holy Spirit as a person, so some folks also regard Satan or the Devil as a person.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]The Bible tells me that "the holy Spirit OF God" is "the Holy Spirit." God's Spirit and God Himself are INSEPARABLE -- they're not even identical twins.

Yours is a statement for those "folks [who] regard the Holy Spirit as a person." Aren't you one of those folks?

"Holy Spirit as a person"? I do not recall God being referred to as a "Person" in Scripture. Now, "the person of Christ" is mentioned in II Cor. 2:9.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 14th, 2013, 4:01 am #13

I don't recall the KJV having wording such as "the spirit OF Satan/the Devil." Rather, the Bible makes reference to Satan/the Devil is if he were a distinct entity. Paul makes reference to the Holy Spirit (who makes us overseers of the Church) in Acts 20:28 as if the Holy Spirit were a distinct entity. This should make those who think otherwise think again.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Acts 20:28 has been explained above -- God's own holy Spirit is that Holy Spirit which cannot be separated from God.

There's that contrasting "spirit of the Lord" and the "spirit of an unclean devil" in Luke 4:18-33. The Lord is distinct; so is the devil. Evidently, the spirit of the Lord cannot be separated from the Lord Himself as another being; neither can the spirit of the devil.

II Cor. 2:11-12 also contrasts "the Spirit OF God" and "the spirit of the world" -- just cannot make the "spirit" into a separate being.

I John 4:2-6 also contrasts "the Spirit of truth" and "the spirit of error" -- just cannot transform the "spirit" into a "being."[/color]
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William Hall
William Hall

August 29th, 2013, 6:30 am #14


I was traveling on vacation during our VBS this year and missed all but one day, so I did not have a chance to participate. Somehow, I have developed the perception that not much is being taught anymore in VBS, but it is a magnet of sorts. We attracted at least two new families and several new young folk this year, so hopefully we are teaching them now.

It is always interesting to see how these threads morph about. Doesn't Romans 8:26 refer to the Holy Spirit with a personal pronoun: "the Spirit himself intercedes for us"? 8:27 makes it clear that the Spirit "himself" acts in accordance with the will of God, but a separate entity somehow.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

August 29th, 2013, 8:33 am #15


[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]You raised a great question in your initial post: "I wonder why we do not lean more towards materials published by our own brotherhood...." I don't know if research has been done regarding the use of non-church of Christ materials in VBS, i.e., the extent of it. I suspect that it's no different from the materials used by some of the theological seminary-educated preachers and teachers in the brotherhood.

As to "how these threads morph about," this thread may be a good example of that. In the initial post, it stated the following: "I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials." I agree -- it was a "slight" mention of the expression "trinitarian tilt," and note how the discussion has expanded to "the Holy Spirit."

I think we've discussed this subject very extensively already, and ... ... ... it is really not finished yet. We've dealt with definitions of words and expressions, parts of speech, grammatical structures, translations, history, origin, etc.

I would simply point out the significance of the preposition "OF" in the expression that we find in some 70 passages, both OT and NT. This is a strong case for identifying "the part versus the whole." A "part" and the "whole" are both entities -- that should be a given. However, in the case of "the Spirit OF the Lord," we cannot separate or segregate "the spirit" from "the Lord." God's holy spirit cannot be separated from God -- it simply means the spirit [which is "holy"] belonging to God.

It's very important to learn that the NT refers to "the Holy Spirit" as "the Spirit of the Lord," "the Spirit of Jesus Christ," "the Spirit of the Father," "the Spirit of the Living God."

Translations of the original NT Greek manuscripts play a major role in the confusion. The Trinity Creed was invented several centuries preceding some of our major translations including the KJV, and such doctrine certainly influenced [sorry!!!] translators, coupled by the fact that where it was necessary to supply a personal pronoun, there was a difficult choice between:

(a) "he, him, himself, his, who, whom"
----------------- versus ----------------
(b) "it, itself, its, which."


I have reviewed several passages in the past [I'm not sure where my notes are now], comparing the use of pronouns, etc. [There may be about the same number of masculine vs. neuter references in those passages.]

What comes to mind where "the Holy Spirit" is not masculine gender are these references:
[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"[2] As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul; [3] All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; [4] My lips shall not speak wickedness, nor my tongue utter deceit." (Job 27)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." (Romans 8)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"[24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us." (I John 3)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"[11] Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow." (I Peter 2)

    [/color]</li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]"[12] Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God." (I Cor. 2)[/color]</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]There may be more....[/color]
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Dave
Dave

August 29th, 2013, 11:52 pm #16

When I was rather young and VBS was new in the churches of Christ there was a bit of controversy about it. I think there still is. I fully agree with the purposes and goals of VBS, but I wonder about the materials a bit. In my congregation, this year we are going to use materials by Group Publishing. I do not see any particular flags, but I have not reviewed the materials in detail, either. It is not necessarily my job to do that. I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials.

Occasionally, I will see a review of VBS materials published by Truth Magazine, but I do not subscribe to that magazine.

Who out there has reviewed the potential VBS materials for 2013. I wonder why we do not lean more towards materials published by our own brotherhood, yet vetted by a congregation's elders?
You can bet on two things happening here at concernedmembers.
1) Doesn't matter what the subject is, Ken can always turn it around towards bashing the music.
2) Donnie has learned from the master.....now even an "of" preposition can be used to turn any subject into a discussion of the trinity, or lack thereof.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 30th, 2013, 2:26 am #17

When doctor ken gives kitty an enema she turns perfectly good food into really vile stuff. She is sooooo human.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 30th, 2013, 2:30 am #18

I was traveling on vacation during our VBS this year and missed all but one day, so I did not have a chance to participate. Somehow, I have developed the perception that not much is being taught anymore in VBS, but it is a magnet of sorts. We attracted at least two new families and several new young folk this year, so hopefully we are teaching them now.

It is always interesting to see how these threads morph about. Doesn't Romans 8:26 refer to the Holy Spirit with a personal pronoun: "the Spirit himself intercedes for us"? 8:27 makes it clear that the Spirit "himself" acts in accordance with the will of God, but a separate entity somehow.
Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities:
for we know not what we should pray for as we ought:
but the Spirit ITSELF maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.


I think that it is OUR spirit which groans and then HE that searches the Heart makes intercession.

Romans 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because HE maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

That intecessor-mediator is now Jesus Christ:

1Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the Lord searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever. 1 Chronicles 28:9

Then hear thou in heaven thy dwelling place, and forgive, and do, and give to every man according to his ways, whose heart thou knowest; (for thou, even thou only, knowest the hearts of all the children of men;) 1 Kings 8:39

But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart. 1 Samuel 16:7

And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, Acts 1:24

And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15


Jesus received the PROMISE of the Holy Spirit: that is Jesus as the living WORD is now The Holy Spirit. Promise means the assignment or office of Spirit. Spirit still means BREATH: when Jesus received that promise He appeared in the upper room "and poured out what you see and hear." They HEARD the BREATH or spirit of God. When god breaths someone speaks.

And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works. Revelation 2:23

Jesus addresses the seven Churches and at the end identifies Himself as THE SPIRIT. 2 John 1 says that the "another Comforter" is still named Jesus Christ the Righteous in his Spirit form which is different in some respects.

Revelation 2:29 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

At least 7 times when Jesus speaks it is the personal SPIRIT speaking.
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on August 30th, 2013, 2:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

August 30th, 2013, 2:59 am #19

When I was rather young and VBS was new in the churches of Christ there was a bit of controversy about it. I think there still is. I fully agree with the purposes and goals of VBS, but I wonder about the materials a bit. In my congregation, this year we are going to use materials by Group Publishing. I do not see any particular flags, but I have not reviewed the materials in detail, either. It is not necessarily my job to do that. I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials.

Occasionally, I will see a review of VBS materials published by Truth Magazine, but I do not subscribe to that magazine.

Who out there has reviewed the potential VBS materials for 2013. I wonder why we do not lean more towards materials published by our own brotherhood, yet vetted by a congregation's elders?
I have just been feeding information from another NACC kidnapping of a Church of Christ to become INSTRUMENTAL. All of the 'scholars' out there keep promoting the using instrumental machines FOR worship. And they whine that piney is obsessed with instrumental music. Now as long as the Musicators are Fornicating in the face of God we will just have to keep up the dripping into your faces. Sure, it would be nice if everyone kept silent but Martin Luther defined a coward who did not address the error at hand.

If you SELL any of your body parts or skills using the Christian Logo you ARE a prostitute. Christ in the prophets kept on keeping on defining Jews who joined in the hypocritic arts worship services PROSTITUTES. Why should we despise a poor girl who sells her body and WORSHIP men who sell their RHETORICAL voices and body persona the work of the holy spirit?

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Dave
Dave

August 30th, 2013, 12:44 pm #20

When I was rather young and VBS was new in the churches of Christ there was a bit of controversy about it. I think there still is. I fully agree with the purposes and goals of VBS, but I wonder about the materials a bit. In my congregation, this year we are going to use materials by Group Publishing. I do not see any particular flags, but I have not reviewed the materials in detail, either. It is not necessarily my job to do that. I know that Group Publishing has at least a very trinitarian tilt to their materials.

Occasionally, I will see a review of VBS materials published by Truth Magazine, but I do not subscribe to that magazine.

Who out there has reviewed the potential VBS materials for 2013. I wonder why we do not lean more towards materials published by our own brotherhood, yet vetted by a congregation's elders?
Ken,
This discussion used to be about Vacation Bible School, right? See what I mean?


Have a great weekend Ken.
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