Ray
Ray

May 21st, 2009, 11:35 pm #31

My example has been misrepresented. Doesn't the New Testament also condemn murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, etc.? These are sins under both the old and new covenants. Sin is sin and law is law. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ (it identified what sin is) Ga. 3:22-27. Christ came to fullfill the Law and do what it could not do, provide an attonement for all sin. He was given ALL authority and we must stay within the confines of that authority if we truly love him. We no longer keep the Sabbath, burn incense, offer animal sacrifices, or use musical instruments in worship because they lie outside of what we are authorized to do. Only someone who goes beyond God's Word could be so arrogant to ignore it, I Co. 4:6,7.
Mark wrote: "Doesn't the New Testament also condemn murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, etc.? These are sins under both the old and new covenants. Sin is sin and law is law. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ (it identified what sin is) Ga. 3:22-27. Christ came to fullfill the Law and do what it could not do, provide an attonement for all sin. He was given ALL authority and we must stay within the confines of that authority if we truly love him."

Precisely!

Whether you believe we should use them today or not, the fact remains that God DID authorize the use of Instrumental Music in the inspired writings of the Old Covenant, and He NEVER inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind.

Donnie and Ken teach falsely that God never authorized Intrumental Music. God DID authorize and inspired psalmists to write about prasing Him with instrumental music.

God bless.
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Mark Waggoner
Mark Waggoner

May 22nd, 2009, 1:30 pm #32

So then, we are sinning today when we do not dance, burn incense, etc. since God "never inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind" on those activities?
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Chris
Chris

May 22nd, 2009, 2:35 pm #33


RE: Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart May 19 2009, 11:49 AM


Chris writes:

Donnie,

I appreciate your response, but you really didn't address the issue I was hoping you would.

Please explain the difference between "sing and play" and "sing and read." If your contention is that we can only do that which is authorized, and the text you are using indicates we are to "sing" and "make melody in our hearts" then the conclusion is that anything other than that is not correct, right?

Therefore, wouldn't "read and sing" be no different than "play and sing" because both are not "sing and make melody in our hearts"?


____________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris,

I was also hoping that you would have ordered the contrasting events as follows:

[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"READ and SING": First, I must point out that it would even be better if God's truth in the song did not have to be read at all. But if it is necessary for God's truth in the hymn to be read, then, the "reading material" [in this case, the hymnbook] is an aid. Singing does not have to be complex. It can be done by reciting the word of Christ expressed or stated in the hymn. The recitation satisfies the key directive in the "speaking to yourselves in ... songs."

    In fact, we must take into consideration that the key directive in Eph. 5:19 is "speaking to yourselves in ... songs." The expression "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord," when taken in context of the entire passage, is an adjunct to the key component -- "speak to yourselves."

    "Singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" is often a misunderstood expression. The action words: (a) "singing" and (b) "making melody in your hearts," while joined by the conjunction "and," are inseparable in context and refer to the same expectation of verbalizing the truth by singing from the heart. In the statement, "Bread and butter is my food," notice the singular verb "is" which indicates that "butter without the bread" is not my food.

    Outside of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, "reading" is encouraged. Remember when Paul admonished Timothy to "give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine" (I Tim. 4:13)? So, reading the word of Christ in the hymn is not an addition to God's directive to "speaking to yourselves ... in songs."[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"SING and PLAY": Chris, I had to reverse your components in "PLAY and SING" to "SING and PLAY." Because "singing" is the native component and "playing" is the alien and the intruder. Unlike "singing and making melody in your heart" being inseparable, "singing" and "playing the musical device" are separable. Even from a practical standpoint, there's no reason why God would be interested in what inanimate, lifeless and HEARTless musical devices can offer. God has never ordained musical instruments and has never directed His people to allow musical objects to participate in the assembly. Remember, it was David (not God), the skilled musician, who ordained musical instruments. You can read that in II Chronicles 29:27.

    Furthermore, II Chronicles 29, musical instruments (ordained by David king of Israel) were not separated from the blood sacrifices and burnt offerings. The chapter enumerates the numbers of different animals sacrificed and offered:

    -- 70 bullocks
    -- 100 rams
    -- 200 lambs
    -- 600 oxen
    -- 3,000 sheep[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Playing musical devices (including timbrels, cymbals, trumpets, psalteries, etc.) is an addition to God's directive to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly ... teaching and admonishing one another in ... songs."[/color]
Donnie,

Once again, I appreciate your response; but, to be honest, I am somewhat confused by your comments. You indicate the need to reverse my components from play and sing to sing and play because singing is the native component. This is all well and good, and I do not object if you are going to be consistent in your application of that rule, but you fail to use that rule when dealing with read and sing. Therefore, I am left to wonder why singing is the native component in sing and play but not in read and sing?

You have also argued that singing and making melody in your heart are inseparable, and have indicated that singing and playing the musical device are separable, thus you reason that playing would be an addition rather than an aid. Yet, in the same post you indicate that reading is not necessary; which would mean that reading and singing are separable, the same as singing and playing. If they are both separable from the native component, how do you determine one to be an aid and the other to be an addition?




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Anonymous
Anonymous

May 22nd, 2009, 4:30 pm #34

UNDER THE MONARCHY WHICH WENT BEYOND THE LAW OF MOSES WHICH OUTLAWED VOCAL AND INSTRUMENTAL REJOICING BECAUSE THE QAHAL, SYNAGOGUE OR CHURCH (OF CHRIST) IN THE WILDERNESS OUTLAWED IT EVEN IF COMMON DECENCY WOULD NOT WHEN YOU ASSEMBLE AS A "SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE":

1 Chr 25:1 David, together with the commanders of the army, set apart some of the sons of Asaph, Heman and Jeduthun for the ministry of prophesying, accompanied by harps, lyres and cymbals. Here is the list of the men who performed this service:

Payne insists that the Hebrew of 1 Chronicles 25:1 unambiguously identifies these leaders as military commanders, an interpretation favoured by several Bible translations. (Payne, p 423-4; NASB, NIV, NKJV, NRSV, Jerusalem Bible) If military commanders had a particular interest in the appointment of musicians, it suggests a strong link between music and warfare


"The Hithpa'el of nb', in the ancient texts, refers to ecstasy and delirium rather than to the emission of a 'prophecy'." (de Vaux, Roland, The Bible and the Ancient Near East, p. 243 Doubleday

"Maniac inspirations, the violent possession which threw sibyls and priestesses into contortions--the foaming lip and streaming hair and glazed or glaring eyes-- have no place in the self-controlling dignity of Christian inspiration. Even Jewish prophets, in the paroxysm of emotion, might lie naked on the ground and rave (1 Sam. xix. 24); but the genuine inspiration in Christian ages never obliterates the self-consciousness or overpowers the reason. It abhors the hysteria and stimulation and frenzy which have sometimes disgraced revivalism and filled lunatic asylums." (Pulpit Commentary, 1 Cor., p. 460).

"Many of the Psalms are expressive of the parade dance, or dance procession, in a way which show it to have been the characteristic form of the festival (Psalms 30:12, 87:7, 149:3, 150:4; Is. 30:29) and that this was where many of the Psalms were used." ( W. O. E. Osterley, The Sacred Dance (Cambridge: N. P., 1923), p. 94)


Isaiah 30 defines HELL and reveals the MARKS or SOUNDS of God driving His enemies into hell already: they are the wind, string and percussion instruments that Lucifer the singing and harp playing prostitute brought with him/her into the garden of Eden: the same instrumental TRUMPET SOUNDS which signals the END of the same Babylon mother of harlots (Rev 17) who uses the same "lusted after fruits" as speakers, singers and instrument players John continues to call SORCERERS used to deceive the whole world.

http://www.piney.com/Isa30LXX.html

THE WAY TO FIND THE CHURCH OF CHRIST ON SUNDAY MORNING FOLLOWING THE DIRECT COMMANDS NOT TO UISE INSTRUMENTS (NUM 10) AND TEACHING AND HONORING CHRIST THE SPIRIT WHO GAVE US THE SONGS AND SERMONS TO TEACH THE GOOD, BAD AND UGLY.

Matt 26:30And when they had sung G5214 an hymn G5214 they went G1831 out into G1519 the mount G3735 of Olives G1636.

[30] Kai humnêsantes exêlthon eis to Oros tôn Elaiôn.

Humneo in Prose, celebrate in a hymn, commemorate, 2 .descant upon, in song or speech, II. tell over and over again, harp upon, repeat, recite, Proverbs 1:20, sing, recite the form of the law, Id.Lg.871a: chant X.Ages.11.2

Decanto C. Esp., to repeat as a charm, and hence to bewitch, enchant, charm, I. To sing a thing off, to repeat in a singing manner (v. cano and canto). to recite, rehearse,


If you SING A HYMN the Greek is HUMNOIDIA,
If literate Paul wanted to say sing and play the harp the word is PSALMODIA.

The worshipers of ZEUS would HYMIZO or ASCRIBE (hymn) the SOURCE of their laws as ZEUS who was the FATHER Jesus intended to repudiate rather than teach THREE GODS.

Plato Laws

[624a] Athenian: To whom do you ASCRIBE the authorship of your legal arrangements, Strangers? To a god or to some man?

Clinias To a god, Stranger, most rightfully to a god. We Cretans call Zeus our lawgiver; while in Lacedaemon, where our friend here has his home, I believe they claim Apollo as theirs. Is not that so, Megillus?


GOD MADE IT EASY TO STEER CLEAR OF LEGALISM: SINGING THE LAWS OF ZEUS (PAGAN FATHER) OR APOLLO WHO IS THE ABADDON OR APOLLYON IN REVELATION AND THE "LUSTED AFTER FRUITS" ARE HIS MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM: ASSUREDLY A TRUMP, SHAKING SOUND HEARD ALL AROUND THE WORLD AT THE SAME TIME IN ALL RELIGIOUS GROUPS.
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Ray
Ray

May 22nd, 2009, 6:57 pm #35

So then, we are sinning today when we do not dance, burn incense, etc. since God "never inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind" on those activities?
Mark wrote: "So then, we are sinning today when we do not dance, burn incense, etc. since God "never inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind" on those activities?"

Was Paul sinning when he took the four Christian men and purified himself along with them, went to the temple to give notice of the date when the days of purification would end, and gave notice with the intent of making the offering for each of them?

Mark, you confuse what we are required to do to be saved with what is not a requirement for salvation.

Do you endorse the false teaching promoted by Donnie and Ken that God NEVER authorized instrumental music anywhere in the scriptures?

God bless
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2009, 9:36 pm #36

Donnie,

Once again, I appreciate your response; but, to be honest, I am somewhat confused by your comments. You indicate the need to reverse my components from play and sing to sing and play because singing is the native component. This is all well and good, and I do not object if you are going to be consistent in your application of that rule, but you fail to use that rule when dealing with read and sing. Therefore, I am left to wonder why singing is the native component in sing and play but not in read and sing?

You have also argued that singing and making melody in your heart are inseparable, and have indicated that singing and playing the musical device are separable, thus you reason that playing would be an addition rather than an aid. Yet, in the same post you indicate that reading is not necessary; which would mean that reading and singing are separable, the same as singing and playing. If they are both separable from the native component, how do you determine one to be an aid and the other to be an addition?



[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris,

I gather from the above post that you agree that "PLAYING" musical devices is an addition. Am I correct in arriving at that conclusion that "PLAYING" is an addition to "SINGING"? Do you have any objection to that conclusion? If not, then, we now can deal with only the "reading and singing" issue as follows: [/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Needless to say, reading [of God's truth in the hymn] is not necessary if the congregants are familiar with the hymn or have it sung from memory. You have no argument against that, correct?

    In this case, "singing" of God's truth via "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" is all by itself as a native component. There is no question regarding the order of components since there is only one component under consideration -- which is "singing." There is also no question regarding a different component [as PLAYING a musical device] being an addition to "singing."[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]So far as "reading" (when it is necessary) and "singing" as being dual components is concerned, you are making this issue unnecessarily complicated.

    Since reading is necessary, in this particular case, these two components are inseparable. Reading is necessitated by singing. Therefore, the use of a hymnbook from which to read the hymn to be sung (or recited) is an aid -- not an addition. "Reading God's truth in words and singing those words" follows the same statement composition as "bread and butter is my food." In the food analogy, butter is not my food. In the singing analogy, without the words being recited, what comes out of the vocal cords will be unintelligble.

    [NOTE: Let's not confuse: (1) "reading as necessary and singing" with (2) singing from memory without the hymnbook.][/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Singing" and "playing" are unquestionably separable. With all elements considered, either: (1) the congregants "sing" or (2) the designated musician "plays" or (3) both the congregants "sing" while the designated musician "plays."

    The scriptures clearly indicate God's simple directive: to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER [the primary directive] in (via) singing [or reciting/vocalizing] psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."

    When the designated musician(s) play without singing, the dynamics of following God's directive changes and is, therefore, violated. Remember the key directive is to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER" which musical devices are incapable of doing.

    When the designated musician(s) play while the congregants sing, the dynamics of following God's directive changes and is, therefore, violated. Remember the key directive is to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER" which musicians and musical devices are incapable of doing.[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris, I notice that you don't seem convinced that the primary objective in the assembly is "teaching and admonishing one another God's truth or with the word of Christ." And this can be accomplished via one mode, i.e., "in ... songs." You don't make mention of it. So, I wonder why. I wonder because when one reaches that point of understanding God's key directive, all else will fall in place.

In conclusion, "teaching and admonishing one another God's word" can be accomplished via reciting or singing about the Lord and His word in those hymns, but cannot be accomplished in PLAYING inanimate, lifeless and heartless musical devices.[/color]
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Anonymous
Anonymous

May 23rd, 2009, 11:41 pm #37

WATCH OUT FOR THE TULSA WORKSHOP

http://www.piney.com/TulsaWorkshop.html

The usual line up of FALSE TEACHINGS and SINGERS fill the program at the Tulsa Soulstealing Workout this year as usual.

Even those who have lied, cheated snd stolen the church houses of widows get return billing probably because the likes of Jeff Walling fills everyone with mirth by his buffoonery. Isn't it amazing that WRATH in Hebrew is marked by jesters and buffoons and wrath or ORGY in Greek identify the singers, clappers, instrument players and hand flangers as a MARK.

Ezekiel speaking by the Spirit of Christ warns about the prophesiers holding workshop and "stealing words from one another." They think that their lies can force people to remember Christ's NAME. Rots of ruck as we used to san in Japan.
ARNOBIUS NOTES AND NO FALSE TEACHER IS LEFT OUT OF HIS LIST OF HERESIES.

http://www.piney.com/FatArnoHerVII.html

But if a god, as is said, has no body, and cannot be touched at all, how is it possible that that which has no body should be nourished by things pertaining to the body,-that what is mortal should support what is immortal, and assist and give vitality to that which it cannot touch? This reason for sacrifices is not valid, therefore, as it seems; nor can it be said by any one that sacrifices are kept up for this reason, that the deities are nourished by them, and supported by feeding on them.

4. If perchance it is not this, Note 22 are victims not slain in sacrifice to the gods, and cast upon their flaming altars to give them 23 some pleasure and delight?

And can any man persuade himself that the gods become mild as they are exhilarated by pleasures, that they long for sensual enjoyment, and, like some base creatures, are affected by agreeable sensations, and charmed and tickled for the moment by 24 a pleasantness which soon passes away?

John Mark Hicks and the LU Credo:

http://www.piney.com/Hicks.Come.Table.html

......Several features characterize the fellowship meals of Israel.
......First, it is a moment of communion between God and his people.

...........God eats with his people as the fat is burned to him.
........... God is present at this meal. It is eaten before the Lord as if God sits at the table with the worshipper.


No, because God had turned them over to worship the STARRY HOST and SERPENTS at the temple, the "god" was called Baal-Zebul or god of the flies. The demons hoovered around wanting to get their fill of blood and gore so the NOISE never called MUSIC was exorcism: to call DOWN the good demons and drive OUT the bad demons: that is EXACTLY what people ar doing today.

The Jews had such a meal and PLAY at Mount Sinai and it is called musical idolatry of a trinity and for that God REMOVED all Grace and turned them over to the gods worshipped by John Mark Hicks and the LU CROWD. You will remember that in 2008 they were promoting SPIRITUAL FORMATION which is clearly defined by Randy Harris in terms of WITCHCRAFT.

......"a time for sharing, prayer and conversation about what God has done for us... (p. 188).

...........Earlier he calls it a "Jubilee festival" (p. 63).
........... He would have it observed with "resounding jubilation or enthusiastic outbursts" (p. 97).


But Paul says that the Lord's Supper is an act of EVANGELISM: showing forth the DEATH of Christ. Now, maybe the Lipscomb Crowd wants to eat and JUBILATE instead of let Christ be EVANGELIZED then it is true as Jesus says: "Doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge." ALL musical words carry the SORCERY concept which ONLY works on the lowest, most ignorant says history. But, God says:

......If I were hungry, I would not tell thee: for the world is mine, and the fulness thereof. Psa 50:12
.......Will I eat the flesh of bulls, or drink the blood of goats? Psa 50:13


......Trinity as Necessary Fact in Alexander Campbells Christian System of Facts" Since the Lipscomb and Hicks view is that God is a FAMILY then they probably hold a POTLUCK.

http://www.piney.com/Trinity.Hicks.Rochester.html

Note 22 The heathen opponent is supposed to give up his first reason, that the sacrifices provided food for the gods, and to advance this new suggestion, that they were intended for their gratification merely.
Note 23 Lit., "for the sake of."
Note24 Lit., "with the fleeting tickling of."


......You strum away on your harps like David and
......improvise on musical instruments.
......who excel in the sound of musical instruments; Amos 6:5

......they have regarded them as abiding,
......not as fleeting pleasure." Amos 6:5 LXX

......The mirth of timbrels has ceased,
......the sound of the harp has ceased. Isaiah 24:8 LXX

......They are ashamed they have not drunk wine;
......strong drink has become bitter to them that drink of it. Isa 24:9 LXX

......No longer do they drink wine with a song;
......the beer is bitter to its drinkers. -- Isa 24:9 (NIV)


For that which is overcome by pleasure must be harassed by its opposite, sorrow; nor can that be free from the anxiety of grief, which trembles with joy, and is elated capriciously with gladness. 25 But the gods should be free from both passions, if we would have them to be everlasting, and freed from the weakness of mortals.

25 Lit., "with the levities of gladnesses.

Moreover, every pleasure is, as it were, a kind of flattery of the body, and is addressed to the five well-known senses; but if the gods above feel it, 26 they must partake also of those bodies through which there is a way to the senses, and a door by which to receive pleasures.

26 i.e., pleasure.

Lastly, what pleasure is it to take delight in the slaughter of harmless creatures, to have the ears ringing often with their piteous bellowings, to see rivers of blood, the life fleeing away with the blood, and the secret parts having been laid open, not only the intestines to protrude with the excrements, but also the heart still bounding with the life left in it, and the trembling, palpitating veins in the viscera?

The MEANING of exorcism music was to "make the lambs voice NOT HEART during the slaughter: Jesus was musically mocked the same way so EVEN NOT people want to JUBILATE so they cannot hear the WORDS of Christ.

We half-savage men, nay rather,-to say with more candour what it is truer and more candid to say,-we savages, whom unhappy necessity and bad habit have trained to take these as food, are sometimes moved with pity for them; we ourselves accuse and condemn ourselves when the thing is seen and looked into thoroughly,

because, neglecting the law which is binding on men,
we have broken through the bonds which naturally united us at the beginning. 27

27 Naturalis initii consortia.

Be sure to eat, drink and make Mary or Harry in the moring because Paul in romans 10 and 1 Corinthians 10 warned about the Red Sea Musical Idolatry and called it DEMON WORSHIP.
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Chris
Chris

May 26th, 2009, 2:34 pm #38

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris,

I gather from the above post that you agree that "PLAYING" musical devices is an addition. Am I correct in arriving at that conclusion that "PLAYING" is an addition to "SINGING"? Do you have any objection to that conclusion? If not, then, we now can deal with only the "reading and singing" issue as follows: [/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Needless to say, reading [of God's truth in the hymn] is not necessary if the congregants are familiar with the hymn or have it sung from memory. You have no argument against that, correct?

    In this case, "singing" of God's truth via "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" is all by itself as a native component. There is no question regarding the order of components since there is only one component under consideration -- which is "singing." There is also no question regarding a different component [as PLAYING a musical device] being an addition to "singing."[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]So far as "reading" (when it is necessary) and "singing" as being dual components is concerned, you are making this issue unnecessarily complicated.

    Since reading is necessary, in this particular case, these two components are inseparable. Reading is necessitated by singing. Therefore, the use of a hymnbook from which to read the hymn to be sung (or recited) is an aid -- not an addition. "Reading God's truth in words and singing those words" follows the same statement composition as "bread and butter is my food." In the food analogy, butter is not my food. In the singing analogy, without the words being recited, what comes out of the vocal cords will be unintelligble.

    [NOTE: Let's not confuse: (1) "reading as necessary and singing" with (2) singing from memory without the hymnbook.][/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Singing" and "playing" are unquestionably separable. With all elements considered, either: (1) the congregants "sing" or (2) the designated musician "plays" or (3) both the congregants "sing" while the designated musician "plays."

    The scriptures clearly indicate God's simple directive: to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER [the primary directive] in (via) singing [or reciting/vocalizing] psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."

    When the designated musician(s) play without singing, the dynamics of following God's directive changes and is, therefore, violated. Remember the key directive is to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER" which musical devices are incapable of doing.

    When the designated musician(s) play while the congregants sing, the dynamics of following God's directive changes and is, therefore, violated. Remember the key directive is to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER" which musicians and musical devices are incapable of doing.[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris, I notice that you don't seem convinced that the primary objective in the assembly is "teaching and admonishing one another God's truth or with the word of Christ." And this can be accomplished via one mode, i.e., "in ... songs." You don't make mention of it. So, I wonder why. I wonder because when one reaches that point of understanding God's key directive, all else will fall in place.

In conclusion, "teaching and admonishing one another God's word" can be accomplished via reciting or singing about the Lord and His word in those hymns, but cannot be accomplished in PLAYING inanimate, lifeless and heartless musical devices.[/color]
Donnie,

Contrary to your gathering I did not indicate in my post whether or not I agreed with you that playing musical devices is an addition; for at the present time I am not ready to concede that such is the case.

The reading and singing issue is not an issue with which I struggle; for I have no problem understanding song books, sheet music, or whatever as an aid to singing. The issue I have relates to the inconsistency of your argument, not with whether or not someone reads from a song book while they sing.

You have labeled playing as an addition because the text informs us to sing not to sing and play. But, at the same time, you have concluded that reading is to be considered as an aid even though the text doesnt say read and sing. To me, this is inconsistent and doesnt address the question of how we determine which items are additions and which ones are aids.

Neither word, play or read, appears in the text; therefore both could be considered as aids or additions. The question becomes how do I determine which one in this case is an aid and which is an addition. And, how do we determine that these two items are different from each other and should not both be considered as aids, or as additions?

Please address these concerns with your thoughts and the consistency of your arguments.

Also, you state, Chris, I notice that you dont seem convinced that the primary objective in the assembly is teaching and admonishing one another Gods truth or with the word of Christ. To be honest, Donnie, I am not convinced that such is the case; for I believe the primary purpose of the assembly is to worship to God, secondary to that, or a byproduct of worship, is mutual edification. It is through our worship that we teach and admonish each other, that is our primary objective.

Regarding your conclusion, yes, teaching and admonishing one another can be accomplished through reciting passages or singing about the Lord and his word in hymns. I dont think anyone disagrees with you. However, no one is suggesting that the playing of an inanimate, lifeless and heartless musical device takes the place of personally worshiping God and edifying one another, because the use of such is only seen as an aid to offer what God has requested, which is worship in song.

Now, before you go and gather something from this post that isnt necessarily stated, let me offer the following: I do not worship with instruments, I am simply rethinking some of the traditional stances upon which my faith has been built and asking whether or not those stances are in line with truth. I wont lie, I have sincere doubts and questions about some of those traditional stances; and, I am simply addressing and asking those questions in this forum.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

June 1st, 2009, 8:55 pm #39

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris,

READING and SINGING: I think I have clearly illustrated this with: "Bread and butter IS my food." While the conjunction "and" is present in that statement, one can deduce from it that "butter" is not my food. (Can you imagine "butter" being your food?) For the same reason, where reading the hymn [God's truth or message] is necessary in order to sing it, the hymn book or sheet music is simply an aid. Reading itself is never an addition to singing.

I think it is very important to take into account man's RESPONSE to God's directive. With singing, there's no other response from man except to SING.

There is NO ADDITION.

SINGING and PLAYING: Again, God's directive is "teaching and admonishing one another in ... songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." It is also very important to take into account man's RESPONSE to God's directive. Playing musical devices is NOT NECESSARY in order to accomplish God's directive to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER IN SONGS." When man responds to God's directive differently, his response is a MODIFIED RESPONSE or an ADDITION. Can you imagine God's directive being: "Teach and admonish one another with musical instruments"? Besides that being not a directive from God, it is impossible to allow musical devices to teach God's truth.


THEREFORE<u>,</u> there is no inconsistency in the chart provided:

(1) SINGING (even when reading is necessary) is SINGING.
(2) PLAYING (with or without singing) is an entirely different activity.

WORSHIP vs. ASSEMBLY: We'll just have to disagree a little bit with each other on this one. Worship "programming" is not specified in Scripture -- other than to "worship Him in spirit and in truth." In the end, the individual is accountable to God for his own worship whether he is: (1) in the gathering of saints or (2) in private. All we know is that we observe the Lord's Supper to commemorate His suffering and death on the cross; that we fellowship with and exhort one another.

It is clear to me that the key element in Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19 is "the word of Christ." "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom."

It is implied in those passages there is a gathering of saints: (1) "speaking to yourselves"; (2) "teaching and admonishing one another"; (3) "singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord -- all indicative of the presence of THOSE who gather.

The delivery of God's truth or message is primary in the gathering of saints. Singing or reciting is one avenue or mode by which "the word of Christ" can dwell in us richly.

"Rethinking some of the traditional stances upon which my faith has been built and asking whether or not those stances are in line with truth": That is certainly your prerogative regarding the use of musical devices in the assembly. To me, if nothing else, I would question and do some serious studying of the history of the use of instrumental music in the assembly. The New Testament speaks virtually nothing about music in the assembly, much less a host of musical devices: timbrels, pipes and organs, trumpets, tabrets, cymbals, tambourines, psalteries, etc. The early church did not use them. The Roman Catholic Church initiated its use by imitating the Jews; the Protestants imitated the Catholics. And why should churches of Christ imitate the Protestants and the Catholics and the Jews?[/color]
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Chris
Chris

June 2nd, 2009, 8:04 pm #40

Donnie,

Your bread and butter illustration does not make any sense to me in light of the point you are seeking to make. The statement that bread and butter is my food indicates that bread and butter is my food, not just bread alone. You may not be able to imagine that butter alone could be my food, but that really isnt the point; for my statement was that bread and butter is my food. The passage in question states sing and make melody in your heart, not read and sing, or even sing and play. Yet, you continually justify reading and not playing. The only thing that would make sense, in light of the point you are seeking to make, is that both be considered the same; whether as an aid or as an addition.

Regarding mans response to Gods directive, you indicated that there is no other response necessary from man than to sing. Therefore, according to your post, anything other than the response of singing on the part of man must be considered as an addition. And you, Donnie, even agree with my previous statement for you stated that when man responds to Gods directive differently, than what is stated, his response is a modified response or an addition. For these reasons, I am still convinced that your argument is inconsistent at best and should be reconsidered.

I agree that singing, even when reading words from a song book, is still singing. But, you have not convinced me that singing, even when accompanied by musical instruments, isnt still singing; even if you claim it is an entirely different activity. By the way, how does singing become something other than singing when an instrument accompanies it?

I am curious as to how you believe an individual offers worships God. Do you not hold to the traditional church of Christ teaching that one worships God through the so-called five acts of worship: singing, praying, Lords Supper, etc? You seem to indicate that there is no programming, which I am interpreting as no pattern. If this is the case, wouldnt that make you a change agent, the same that you despise? Please explain your thoughts more fully regarding programming so that I may understand your point.


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