Link: Copy link
Mark wrote: "Doesn't the New Testament also condemn murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, etc.? These are sins under both the old and new covenants. Sin is sin and law is law. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ (it identified what sin is) Ga. 3:22-27. Christ came to fullfill the Law and do what it could not do, provide an attonement for all sin. He was given ALL authority and we must stay within the confines of that authority if we truly love him."My example has been misrepresented. Doesn't the New Testament also condemn murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, etc.? These are sins under both the old and new covenants. Sin is sin and law is law. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ (it identified what sin is) Ga. 3:22-27. Christ came to fullfill the Law and do what it could not do, provide an attonement for all sin. He was given ALL authority and we must stay within the confines of that authority if we truly love him. We no longer keep the Sabbath, burn incense, offer animal sacrifices, or use musical instruments in worship because they lie outside of what we are authorized to do. Only someone who goes beyond God's Word could be so arrogant to ignore it, I Co. 4:6,7.
RE: Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart May 19 2009, 11:49 AM
I appreciate your response, but you really didn't address the issue I was hoping you would.
Please explain the difference between "sing and play" and "sing and read." If your contention is that we can only do that which is authorized, and the text you are using indicates we are to "sing" and "make melody in our hearts" then the conclusion is that anything other than that is not correct, right?
Therefore, wouldn't "read and sing" be no different than "play and sing" because both are not "sing and make melody in our hearts"?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris,
I was also hoping that you would have ordered the contrasting events as follows:
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Playing musical devices (including timbrels, cymbals, trumpets, psalteries, etc.) is an addition to God's directive to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly ... teaching and admonishing one another in ... songs."[/color]
- [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"READ and SING": First, I must point out that it would even be better if God's truth in the song did not have to be read at all. But if it is necessary for God's truth in the hymn to be read, then, the "reading material" [in this case, the hymnbook] is an aid. Singing does not have to be complex. It can be done by reciting the word of Christ expressed or stated in the hymn. The recitation satisfies the key directive in the "speaking to yourselves in ... songs."
In fact, we must take into consideration that the key directive in Eph. 5:19 is "speaking to yourselves in ... songs." The expression "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord," when taken in context of the entire passage, is an adjunct to the key component -- "speak to yourselves."
"Singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" is often a misunderstood expression. The action words: (a) "singing" and (b) "making melody in your hearts," while joined by the conjunction "and," are inseparable in context and refer to the same expectation of verbalizing the truth by singing from the heart. In the statement, "Bread and butter is my food," notice the singular verb "is" which indicates that "butter without the bread" is not my food.
Outside of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, "reading" is encouraged. Remember when Paul admonished Timothy to "give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine" (I Tim. 4:13)? So, reading the word of Christ in the hymn is not an addition to God's directive to "speaking to yourselves ... in songs."[/color]
- [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"SING and PLAY": Chris, I had to reverse your components in "PLAY and SING" to "SING and PLAY." Because "singing" is the native component and "playing" is the alien and the intruder. Unlike "singing and making melody in your heart" being inseparable, "singing" and "playing the musical device" are separable. Even from a practical standpoint, there's no reason why God would be interested in what inanimate, lifeless and HEARTless musical devices can offer. God has never ordained musical instruments and has never directed His people to allow musical objects to participate in the assembly. Remember, it was David (not God), the skilled musician, who ordained musical instruments. You can read that in II Chronicles 29:27.
Furthermore, II Chronicles 29, musical instruments (ordained by David king of Israel) were not separated from the blood sacrifices and burnt offerings. The chapter enumerates the numbers of different animals sacrificed and offered:
-- 70 bullocks
-- 100 rams
-- 200 lambs
-- 600 oxen
-- 3,000 sheep[/color]
Mark wrote: "So then, we are sinning today when we do not dance, burn incense, etc. since God "never inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind" on those activities?"So then, we are sinning today when we do not dance, burn incense, etc. since God "never inspired any writer to write that He changed His mind" on those activities?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris,Donnie,
Once again, I appreciate your response; but, to be honest, I am somewhat confused by your comments. You indicate the need to reverse my components from play and sing to sing and play because singing is the native component. This is all well and good, and I do not object if you are going to be consistent in your application of that rule, but you fail to use that rule when dealing with read and sing. Therefore, I am left to wonder why singing is the native component in sing and play but not in read and sing?
You have also argued that singing and making melody in your heart are inseparable, and have indicated that singing and playing the musical device are separable, thus you reason that playing would be an addition rather than an aid. Yet, in the same post you indicate that reading is not necessary; which would mean that reading and singing are separable, the same as singing and playing. If they are both separable from the native component, how do you determine one to be an aid and the other to be an addition?
ARNOBIUS NOTES AND NO FALSE TEACHER IS LEFT OUT OF HIS LIST OF HERESIES.WATCH OUT FOR THE TULSA WORKSHOP
The usual line up of FALSE TEACHINGS and SINGERS fill the program at the Tulsa Soulstealing Workout this year as usual.
Even those who have lied, cheated snd stolen the church houses of widows get return billing probably because the likes of Jeff Walling fills everyone with mirth by his buffoonery. Isn't it amazing that WRATH in Hebrew is marked by jesters and buffoons and wrath or ORGY in Greek identify the singers, clappers, instrument players and hand flangers as a MARK.
Ezekiel speaking by the Spirit of Christ warns about the prophesiers holding workshop and "stealing words from one another." They think that their lies can force people to remember Christ's NAME. Rots of ruck as we used to san in Japan.
Donnie,[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris,
I gather from the above post that you agree that "PLAYING" musical devices is an addition. Am I correct in arriving at that conclusion that "PLAYING" is an addition to "SINGING"? Do you have any objection to that conclusion? If not, then, we now can deal with only the "reading and singing" issue as follows: [/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris, I notice that you don't seem convinced that the primary objective in the assembly is "teaching and admonishing one another God's truth or with the word of Christ." And this can be accomplished via one mode, i.e., "in ... songs." You don't make mention of it. So, I wonder why. I wonder because when one reaches that point of understanding God's key directive, all else will fall in place.
- [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Needless to say, reading [of God's truth in the hymn] is not necessary if the congregants are familiar with the hymn or have it sung from memory. You have no argument against that, correct?
In this case, "singing" of God's truth via "psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" is all by itself as a native component. There is no question regarding the order of components since there is only one component under consideration -- which is "singing." There is also no question regarding a different component [as PLAYING a musical device] being an addition to "singing."[/color]
- [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]So far as "reading" (when it is necessary) and "singing" as being dual components is concerned, you are making this issue unnecessarily complicated.
Since reading is necessary, in this particular case, these two components are inseparable. Reading is necessitated by singing. Therefore, the use of a hymnbook from which to read the hymn to be sung (or recited) is an aid -- not an addition. "Reading God's truth in words and singing those words" follows the same statement composition as "bread and butter is my food." In the food analogy, butter is not my food. In the singing analogy, without the words being recited, what comes out of the vocal cords will be unintelligble.
[NOTE: Let's not confuse: (1) "reading as necessary and singing" with (2) singing from memory without the hymnbook.][/color]
- [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"Singing" and "playing" are unquestionably separable. With all elements considered, either: (1) the congregants "sing" or (2) the designated musician "plays" or (3) both the congregants "sing" while the designated musician "plays."
The scriptures clearly indicate God's simple directive: to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER [the primary directive] in (via) singing [or reciting/vocalizing] psalms and hymns and spiritual songs."
When the designated musician(s) play without singing, the dynamics of following God's directive changes and is, therefore, violated. Remember the key directive is to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER" which musical devices are incapable of doing.
When the designated musician(s) play while the congregants sing, the dynamics of following God's directive changes and is, therefore, violated. Remember the key directive is to "teach and admonish ONE ANOTHER" which musicians and musical devices are incapable of doing.[/color]
In conclusion, "teaching and admonishing one another God's word" can be accomplished via reciting or singing about the Lord and His word in those hymns, but cannot be accomplished in PLAYING inanimate, lifeless and heartless musical devices.[/color]