Chris
Chris

May 19th, 2009, 3:49 pm #21

Chris,

I find it interesting that you did not bring up the other examples pertaining to the baptistery and the church building. Thanks for the question. I would respond briefly for now as follows:

I would pick on man's response to "PLAY."

  • The instruments are not in question so far as their being in the midst of an assembly alone is concerned.
    </li>
  • . . . and true also as in the case of other objects (song books, pitch pipe, microphones).
    </li>
  • The argument comes up when PLAYING the instruments is involved.
    </li>
  • Since PLAYING the [musical] object is the point of contention, let's use the same rule for the other objects:
    </li>
  • We do not PLAY with songbooks as we sing; we read the words to speak or vocalize the hymn -- which hopefully is pertinent to letting "the word of Christ dwell in us richly in songs." Of course, if we don't need the songbooks to aid us in singing, the better it is.
    </li>
  • We do not PLAY with the pitch pipe as we sing. It aids to determine the tone of the first note. After that determination, the pipe no longer aids the singing.
    </li>
  • The contention that the pitch pipe is another form of a musical instrument is invalid. It can be validated only if there is a pitch pipe with the prepared tone to correspond to each musical note so that there will be multiples of pitch pipes available that are capable of playing the entire hymn. That would require a lot of rehearsals to create music out of several pitch pipes. [I realize Im being facetious but hopefully the point is understood.]
    </li>
  • Same principle applicable to microphones as is to the pitch pipes. We do not PLAY with the microphones, do we? Don't we know that a microphone is useful as an aid so that when God's message is delivered, it can be heard?

    </li>
Again, PLAYING is the key element in all points of argumentation here. As already mentioned, we do not PLAY with microphones, songbooks or pitch pipes. If they're played with, then, they too can become additions. After all, singing is only one of the avenues of letting "the word of Christ dwell in us richly," of "teaching and admonishing one another," of "speaking to yourselves," according to Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19.

Frankly, we often lose sight of the fact that even singing is not the key directive stated in those passages. Rather, it is the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" which the musical devices are incapable of doing.
Donnie,

I appreciate your response, but you really didn't address the issue I was hoping you would.

Please explain the difference between "sing and play" and "sing and read." If your contention is that we can only do that which is authorized, and the text you are using indicates we are to "sing" and "make melody in our hearts" then the conclusion is that anything other than that is not correct, right?

Therefore, wouldn't "read and sing" be no different than "play and sing" because both are not "sing and make melody in our hearts"?
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Ray
Ray

May 19th, 2009, 6:20 pm #22

Chris,

I find it interesting that you did not bring up the other examples pertaining to the baptistery and the church building. Thanks for the question. I would respond briefly for now as follows:

I would pick on man's response to "PLAY."

  • The instruments are not in question so far as their being in the midst of an assembly alone is concerned.
    </li>
  • . . . and true also as in the case of other objects (song books, pitch pipe, microphones).
    </li>
  • The argument comes up when PLAYING the instruments is involved.
    </li>
  • Since PLAYING the [musical] object is the point of contention, let's use the same rule for the other objects:
    </li>
  • We do not PLAY with songbooks as we sing; we read the words to speak or vocalize the hymn -- which hopefully is pertinent to letting "the word of Christ dwell in us richly in songs." Of course, if we don't need the songbooks to aid us in singing, the better it is.
    </li>
  • We do not PLAY with the pitch pipe as we sing. It aids to determine the tone of the first note. After that determination, the pipe no longer aids the singing.
    </li>
  • The contention that the pitch pipe is another form of a musical instrument is invalid. It can be validated only if there is a pitch pipe with the prepared tone to correspond to each musical note so that there will be multiples of pitch pipes available that are capable of playing the entire hymn. That would require a lot of rehearsals to create music out of several pitch pipes. [I realize Im being facetious but hopefully the point is understood.]
    </li>
  • Same principle applicable to microphones as is to the pitch pipes. We do not PLAY with the microphones, do we? Don't we know that a microphone is useful as an aid so that when God's message is delivered, it can be heard?

    </li>
Again, PLAYING is the key element in all points of argumentation here. As already mentioned, we do not PLAY with microphones, songbooks or pitch pipes. If they're played with, then, they too can become additions. After all, singing is only one of the avenues of letting "the word of Christ dwell in us richly," of "teaching and admonishing one another," of "speaking to yourselves," according to Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19.

Frankly, we often lose sight of the fact that even singing is not the key directive stated in those passages. Rather, it is the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" which the musical devices are incapable of doing.
Donnie, you wrote, "Frankly, we often lose sight of the fact that even singing is not the key directive stated in those passages. Rather, it is the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" which the musical devices are incapable of doing."

Frankly, we often lose sight of the fact that not even WORSHIP SERVICES or ASSEMBLY are the key directives stated in those passages. Rather, it is how we live our lives as imitators of Christ EVERY DAY. To rip these passages out of the context and demand that they talk only of an assembly is do violence to what God has inspired.

What IS the Biblical context? It is NOT and NEVER has been an assembly of the saints. The Biblical context has ALWAYS been how we live our lives. And how do we live our lives?
- not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed
- no obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking
- do not be partners with those who practce the above
- Have nothing to do with these fruitless deeds of darkness
- Be very careful, then, how you live
- make the most of every opportunity
- Do not get drunk on wine but be filled with the Spirit
- Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs
- Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord
- always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ
- Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ
- Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord
- Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church
- Children, obey your parents in the Lord
- Fathers, do not exasperate your children
- Fathers, bring your children up in the training and instruction of the Lord
- Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart
- masters, treat your slaves in the same way
- be strong in the Lord and in his mighty power
- Put on the full armor of God
- set your hearts on things above
- Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things
- Put to death whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed
- rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips
- Do not lie to each other
- clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience
- Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another
- Forgive as the Lord forgave you
- put on love
- Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts
- be thankful
- Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly
- and admonish one another with all wisdom
- sing psalms, hymns and spiritual songs with gratitude in your hearts to God
- whatever you do, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him
- Wives, submit to your husbands
- Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them
- Children, obey your parents in everything
- Fathers, do not embitter your children
- Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything

Not ONE of these things is in refercne to an assembly. ALL of these thigns are in what we do EVERY DAY.

So if you are saying that because of just ONE or TWO of the above Biblcal instructions that playing a piano is wrong and sinful, then in respect to the context given by GOD, it MUST be wrong and sinful EVERY DAY.

Keep the context INTACT. ALL of these are instructions are for EVERY DAY.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 19th, 2009, 8:33 pm #23

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

Thanks for your input.

I'll have to disagree with you concerning the "key directive" in Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19. I must say it is not singing; it is not music; it is not the "worship service" [man came up with that; and look at how it has become so "programmed"]; it is not the "praise service" [man came up with that also...].

Rather, as I have said, it is about an assembly for the purpose of "speaking to yourselves" and "teaching and admonishing one another." It is about "the word of Christ" that is to "dwell in us richly." "Speaking to yourselves" clearly suggests an assembly. "Teaching and admonishing one another" clearly suggests an assembly as well.

Now, the disagreements have been about the use of musical objects or devices in the assembly of saints. That is the reason why I have responded only within the boundaries of what occurs and what's controversial when the saints gather to teach and admonish one another through singing [one of the avenues by which we can communicate] God's truth.

Regarding your other comments about me taking God's truth out of context, I must say that that has not been my intention and that I don't believe that I have done that. Having said that, yes, I agree with you that "worship" is not at all limited to the confines of a "gathering of saints." There's a lot more to that in Christian living. And this is where we agree with each other.

May I urge you to limit this discussion to that which has to do with the assembly of Christians and instrumental music is involved?

May I also urge you to initiate a separate thread that deals with personal worship in Christian living? I think you have a pretty good case for what or how individual Christians have often mismanaged their personal lives as Christians.[/color]
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Ray
Ray

May 20th, 2009, 12:47 am #24

Donnie, you wrote, "May I urge you to limit this discussion to that which has to do with the assembly of Christians and instrumental music is involved?"

If we are to limit this discussion to that which has to do with the assembly of Christians and instrumental music is involved, then we will have to exclude Ephesians 5-6 and Colossians 3, because neither of these passages have anything to do with the assembly of Christians. Both have only to to do with living as imitators of Christ.

The key passages on Christian assembly are found in 1 Corinthians 11-14.
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Ray
Ray

May 20th, 2009, 12:50 am #25

Talk about a pick-and-choose religion, if people are going to fall back on the Old Testament Psalms (like Psalm 150) as their authority for IM in Christian worship, then they will have no qualms about following the other practices of the Law of Moses to which the Psalms refer. Observe:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Now if a person is bent on using the Psalms to justify IM in Christian worship, would he not object to offering burnt sacrifices as the ancient Jews did? The Psalms clearly call for sacrifices. Is a person going to implement the IM but disregard the burnt sacrifices? If he does, then he engages in a pick-and-choose religion.

Or, a person can follow the New Testament entirely and put away the practices of the Old Testament Law of Moses (burnt sacrifices, incense, IM, etc.), which Christ nailed to His cross (Col. 2:14).
Dr Bill. Please come back when you understand the role of the Old Covenant, and of the sacrifice Jesus.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 20th, 2009, 2:02 am #26

Donnie, you wrote, "May I urge you to limit this discussion to that which has to do with the assembly of Christians and instrumental music is involved?"

If we are to limit this discussion to that which has to do with the assembly of Christians and instrumental music is involved, then we will have to exclude Ephesians 5-6 and Colossians 3, because neither of these passages have anything to do with the assembly of Christians. Both have only to to do with living as imitators of Christ.

The key passages on Christian assembly are found in 1 Corinthians 11-14.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ray,

No, the discussion at hand is dealing with the controversy regarding instrumental music in the assembly. Is it not?

I don't believe you understand at all that the passages in Eph. 5 and Col. 3 are used by both sides of the argument. One side states that singing is mentioned with specificity; that singing with grace and melody in your heart is no less than specific. The other side states that where God does not say "NOT TO" means His approval or authorization.

My point, Ray, is that whether or not you believe that teaching and admonishing ONE ANOTHER precludes an assembly of only one person, the controversy with regard to instrumental music does not go away. So, it is from that premise that discussion of this thread is to continue.

Please don't forget that I have also urged you to initiate another thread that deals with Christian living on the part of the individual himself. You've already mentioned many factors why such a discussion, apart from the controversial instrumental music issue, is significant.

A discussion of Christian living itself can be another and a different controversy altogether especially when both sides of the argument have to deal with God's grace and mercy and with man's response to His offer of free redemption in the blood of Christ. Does a Christian live by faith only or does he produce good works; etc.?

Or, are you attempting to divert the discussion from instrumental music because you're unable to produce evidence that God directs Christians to "praise" Him with musical devices as David the king ordained them?[/color]
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Mark Waggoner
Mark Waggoner

May 20th, 2009, 8:00 pm #27

Dr Bill. Please come back when you understand the role of the Old Covenant, and of the sacrifice Jesus.
Perhaps this explains what Dr. Crump was saying... if you use the old law for any religious practice then you must keep the whole law.

Galatians 5:1-7 (ASV)
5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage. 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision, Christ will profit you nothing. 5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace. 5:5 For we through the Spirit by faith wait for the hope of righteousness. 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love. 5:7 Ye were running well; who hindered you that ye should not obey the truth?
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Ray
Ray

May 21st, 2009, 12:23 am #28

"Perhaps this explains what Dr. Crump was saying... if you use the old law for any religious practice then you must keep the whole law."

No. This doesn't explain it all for anyone who understands the Bible. Example - Thou shalt not kill. Following yours, and Crump's explanation, if we keep this law, then we keep the whole OT.

What were the two greatest commandments? If we keep both of those, then you and Crump are saying that we must keep all the commands in the OT.

Only someone who does not recognize the role of the OT and the meaning of the sacrifice of Jesus would fail to grasp the silliness of such a position.

Also note that this thread was hijacked by Crump - the post he responded to was not saying we can use intrumental music because the OT says we can. The comment he hijacked said that Donnie and Ken asserion that instruments were NEVER authorized by God was wrong and against the teaching of the OT Scriptures.

Anyone who teaches that instrumental music was NEVER authorized by God either does not care what is taught in God's word, or is a deceiver.
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Mark Waggoner
Mark Waggoner

May 21st, 2009, 1:52 pm #29

My example has been misrepresented. Doesn't the New Testament also condemn murder, adultery, idolatry, theft, etc.? These are sins under both the old and new covenants. Sin is sin and law is law. The Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ (it identified what sin is) Ga. 3:22-27. Christ came to fullfill the Law and do what it could not do, provide an attonement for all sin. He was given ALL authority and we must stay within the confines of that authority if we truly love him. We no longer keep the Sabbath, burn incense, offer animal sacrifices, or use musical instruments in worship because they lie outside of what we are authorized to do. Only someone who goes beyond God's Word could be so arrogant to ignore it, I Co. 4:6,7.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 21st, 2009, 5:14 pm #30

WATCH OUT FOR THE TULSA WORKSHOP

http://www.piney.com/TulsaWorkshop.html

The usual line up of FALSE TEACHINGS and SINGERS fill the program at the Tulsa Soulstealing Workout this year as usual.

Even those who have lied, cheated snd stolen the church houses of widows get return billing probably because the likes of Jeff Walling fills everyone with mirth by his buffoonery. Isn't it amazing that WRATH in Hebrew is marked by jesters and buffoons and wrath or ORGY in Greek identify the singers, clappers, instrument players and hand flangers as a MARK.

Ezekiel speaking by the Spirit of Christ warns about the prophesiers holding workshop and "stealing words from one another." They think that their lies can force people to remember Christ's NAME. Rots of ruck as we used to san in Japan.
RE: Questioning the "Determining Aids and Additions" Chart May 19 2009, 11:49 AM


Chris writes:

Donnie,

I appreciate your response, but you really didn't address the issue I was hoping you would.

Please explain the difference between "sing and play" and "sing and read." If your contention is that we can only do that which is authorized, and the text you are using indicates we are to "sing" and "make melody in our hearts" then the conclusion is that anything other than that is not correct, right?

Therefore, wouldn't "read and sing" be no different than "play and sing" because both are not "sing and make melody in our hearts"?


____________________________

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Chris,

I was also hoping that you would have ordered the contrasting events as follows:

[/color]
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"READ and SING": First, I must point out that it would even be better if God's truth in the song did not have to be read at all. But if it is necessary for God's truth in the hymn to be read, then, the "reading material" [in this case, the hymnbook] is an aid. Singing does not have to be complex. It can be done by reciting the word of Christ expressed or stated in the hymn. The recitation satisfies the key directive in the "speaking to yourselves in ... songs."

    In fact, we must take into consideration that the key directive in Eph. 5:19 is "speaking to yourselves in ... songs." The expression "singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord," when taken in context of the entire passage, is an adjunct to the key component -- "speak to yourselves."

    "Singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord" is often a misunderstood expression. The action words: (a) "singing" and (b) "making melody in your hearts," while joined by the conjunction "and," are inseparable in context and refer to the same expectation of verbalizing the truth by singing from the heart. In the statement, "Bread and butter is my food," notice the singular verb "is" which indicates that "butter without the bread" is not my food.

    Outside of Eph. 5:19 and Col. 3:16, "reading" is encouraged. Remember when Paul admonished Timothy to "give attendance to READING, to exhortation, to doctrine" (I Tim. 4:13)? So, reading the word of Christ in the hymn is not an addition to God's directive to "speaking to yourselves ... in songs."[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"SING and PLAY": Chris, I had to reverse your components in "PLAY and SING" to "SING and PLAY." Because "singing" is the native component and "playing" is the alien and the intruder. Unlike "singing and making melody in your heart" being inseparable, "singing" and "playing the musical device" are separable. Even from a practical standpoint, there's no reason why God would be interested in what inanimate, lifeless and HEARTless musical devices can offer. God has never ordained musical instruments and has never directed His people to allow musical objects to participate in the assembly. Remember, it was David (not God), the skilled musician, who ordained musical instruments. You can read that in II Chronicles 29:27.

    Furthermore, II Chronicles 29, musical instruments (ordained by David king of Israel) were not separated from the blood sacrifices and burnt offerings. The chapter enumerates the numbers of different animals sacrificed and offered:

    -- 70 bullocks
    -- 100 rams
    -- 200 lambs
    -- 600 oxen
    -- 3,000 sheep[/color]

    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Playing musical devices (including timbrels, cymbals, trumpets, psalteries, etc.) is an addition to God's directive to "let the word of Christ dwell in you richly ... teaching and admonishing one another in ... songs."[/color]
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