Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 2nd, 2009, 5:07 am #11

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Zac,

No, I'm not saying at all that instrumental worship and dancing were OK in the Old Testament. Let me explain further some of the points I brought up earlier:

(1) David was a skilled musician, a nudist and a dancer. When he listed a number of musical instruments in Psalm 150 and mentioned "praising the Lord" with the listed devices, the chapter was simply his writing. Yes, it is part of the inspired Holy Scripture, but so are other historical facts that deal with idolatrous worship, murders, theft, adulterous activities, etc., throughout the Bible. Being in Scripture does not necessarily make it a command or an instruction or a directive coming from God. To me it is obvious that that was David's own desire, not God's.

(2) It was David the king of Israel, not God in heaven, who ordained musical instruments according to II Chron. 29. Nowhere in the Old Testament and the New did God ordain musical instruments in worship to Him.

(3) In II Chron. 29, it is clear that the musical instruments were used (as ordained by David) IN CONJUNCTION WITH blood sacrifices and burnt offerings. In fact, it's recorded in that same chapter the number of different animals used in the blood sacrifices:

-- 70 bullocks
-- 100 rams
-- 200 lambs
-- 600 oxen
-- 3000 sheep

Notice the expression "in conjunction with." That's what occurred during King Hezekiah's reign in Jerusalem. (I would venture to say that during this period the use of instrumental music was an added activity to God's directive for the people to offer sacrifices.)

If the instrumental enthusiasts desire to use musical devices in their "worship" to our Father in heaven today, then, they should be willing to offer blood sacrifices and burnt offerings just as well. The argument that we are now under Christ and that it is His blood that cleanses our sins, instead of the blood of bulls and goats, is simply not a valid one.

(4) Psalm 150 mentions the word "dance." David the musician says, "Praise him with the timbrel and dance." Firstly, David did not have a congregation. And to even declare that the use of instruments listed in the chapter has any association with what should occur in the assembly or gathering of New Testament Christians is a complete nonsense. Secondly, I cannot imagine the congregants doing the "timbrel and dance" in worship to God.

So, in answer to the rest of your question, "... but since [the time of] Jesus they are not [okay anymore]," I would say that instrumental music and dance were not okay in the Old Testament, in the first place. There's no proof or evidence from the Old Testament that God ever commanded or directed His people to worship Him with musical devices.

In the New Testament, even the word "music" is mentioned only once -- that was in the story of the prodigal son. Much less expect a list in the New Testament of instruments or musical devices to be used in the assembly of the saints?

The use of man-made musical devices in worship was neither God-ordained nor God-directed even in the old law.

In the New Testament church, the saints gather purposefully to commemorate the Lord's suffering and death on the cross, to exhort one another, to let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, to teach and admonish one another -- which inanimate, lifeless, soul-less, heartless musical instruments are incapable of doing.[/color]
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Zac
Zac

May 3rd, 2009, 3:35 pm #12

Christ's Sacrifice does cover the bulls...etc. It doesn't cover the instruments. God never specifically said anything about them but neither did he say anything about the lifeless, heartless, song books, pews, microphones, air conditioning, worship announcements, lights, clothing, jewelry, and numerous other things we use in our modern day worship. I'm not sure being silent where the bible is silent is always the best argument. I know you have an argument for this just like all the others, but here is the thing. The God I worship is truly being worshiped by me and others, and He knows that. He will not condemn me for true worship even if I do use instruments. God can be worshiped and praised in every manner of my life. True worship comes from within no matter what is going on around me on the outside. David got that. Have you never been so happy or worshipful, or moved by God that you couldn't control your emotions? Sometimes when you hit that place where you feel so close to God there is no way you can keep from dancing, clapping, singing, crying, hitting your knees, raising your hands. I am so sorry if you have never experienced this. I bet some of you are sports fans, or fans of something. When your team wins the big game, or your kid hits that home run you know you can't contain yourself. Yet when you feel close to the God who loves you, and saved you, and blesses you, you sit there like a knot on a log. Now like I said worship comes from within so If you are worshiping on the inside but somehow you can do that without letting it show because that's who you are then fine, but do not tell others that God is unhappy with them when they are joyful to be His servants.
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Ray
Ray

May 3rd, 2009, 8:08 pm #13

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Zac,

No, I'm not saying at all that instrumental worship and dancing were OK in the Old Testament. Let me explain further some of the points I brought up earlier:

(1) David was a skilled musician, a nudist and a dancer. When he listed a number of musical instruments in Psalm 150 and mentioned "praising the Lord" with the listed devices, the chapter was simply his writing. Yes, it is part of the inspired Holy Scripture, but so are other historical facts that deal with idolatrous worship, murders, theft, adulterous activities, etc., throughout the Bible. Being in Scripture does not necessarily make it a command or an instruction or a directive coming from God. To me it is obvious that that was David's own desire, not God's.

(2) It was David the king of Israel, not God in heaven, who ordained musical instruments according to II Chron. 29. Nowhere in the Old Testament and the New did God ordain musical instruments in worship to Him.

(3) In II Chron. 29, it is clear that the musical instruments were used (as ordained by David) IN CONJUNCTION WITH blood sacrifices and burnt offerings. In fact, it's recorded in that same chapter the number of different animals used in the blood sacrifices:

-- 70 bullocks
-- 100 rams
-- 200 lambs
-- 600 oxen
-- 3000 sheep

Notice the expression "in conjunction with." That's what occurred during King Hezekiah's reign in Jerusalem. (I would venture to say that during this period the use of instrumental music was an added activity to God's directive for the people to offer sacrifices.)

If the instrumental enthusiasts desire to use musical devices in their "worship" to our Father in heaven today, then, they should be willing to offer blood sacrifices and burnt offerings just as well. The argument that we are now under Christ and that it is His blood that cleanses our sins, instead of the blood of bulls and goats, is simply not a valid one.

(4) Psalm 150 mentions the word "dance." David the musician says, "Praise him with the timbrel and dance." Firstly, David did not have a congregation. And to even declare that the use of instruments listed in the chapter has any association with what should occur in the assembly or gathering of New Testament Christians is a complete nonsense. Secondly, I cannot imagine the congregants doing the "timbrel and dance" in worship to God.

So, in answer to the rest of your question, "... but since [the time of] Jesus they are not [okay anymore]," I would say that instrumental music and dance were not okay in the Old Testament, in the first place. There's no proof or evidence from the Old Testament that God ever commanded or directed His people to worship Him with musical devices.

In the New Testament, even the word "music" is mentioned only once -- that was in the story of the prodigal son. Much less expect a list in the New Testament of instruments or musical devices to be used in the assembly of the saints?

The use of man-made musical devices in worship was neither God-ordained nor God-directed even in the old law.

In the New Testament church, the saints gather purposefully to commemorate the Lord's suffering and death on the cross, to exhort one another, to let the word of Christ dwell in us richly, to teach and admonish one another -- which inanimate, lifeless, soul-less, heartless musical instruments are incapable of doing.[/color]
Donnie,

You said, "The use of man-made musical devices in worship was neither God-ordained nor God-directed even in the old law."

The Bible - and therefore God - does not agree.

It is no wonder your philosophy and that of your mentors have strayed so far from the Word of God. You seem to deny so much of what the Word of God clearly teaches and instead cling to your man-made conclusions.

I really pity brothers in the Lord such as yourself and your mentors who deny so much of what God has taught in His Holy Word, or twist it into something God never intended in order to fit the traditions taught by mere men.

You have my prayers that you heart will no longer be so hard, and that you will accept all the teachings of God and not the just the buffet variety where you can pick and choose just the parts you like.

Blessings.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 4th, 2009, 7:01 am #14

Christ's Sacrifice does cover the bulls...etc. It doesn't cover the instruments. God never specifically said anything about them but neither did he say anything about the lifeless, heartless, song books, pews, microphones, air conditioning, worship announcements, lights, clothing, jewelry, and numerous other things we use in our modern day worship. I'm not sure being silent where the bible is silent is always the best argument. I know you have an argument for this just like all the others, but here is the thing. The God I worship is truly being worshiped by me and others, and He knows that. He will not condemn me for true worship even if I do use instruments. God can be worshiped and praised in every manner of my life. True worship comes from within no matter what is going on around me on the outside. David got that. Have you never been so happy or worshipful, or moved by God that you couldn't control your emotions? Sometimes when you hit that place where you feel so close to God there is no way you can keep from dancing, clapping, singing, crying, hitting your knees, raising your hands. I am so sorry if you have never experienced this. I bet some of you are sports fans, or fans of something. When your team wins the big game, or your kid hits that home run you know you can't contain yourself. Yet when you feel close to the God who loves you, and saved you, and blesses you, you sit there like a knot on a log. Now like I said worship comes from within so If you are worshiping on the inside but somehow you can do that without letting it show because that's who you are then fine, but do not tell others that God is unhappy with them when they are joyful to be His servants.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]zac,

The "law of silence" has been misused and abused in so many ways. It's been misused for the argument that the Scripture does not say "NOT TO"; therefore, it means God's approval or authorization.

I often hear this argument: "The Bible does not say 'not to use instrumental music'; therefore, God does not prohibit its use." Well, the Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not worship 'The Virgin Mary, Mother of God,'" does it? Well, the Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not have a pope as your 'God on earth,'" does it?

The use of air conditioning, toilets, buildings, pews, kitchens, lights, etc., being EQUATED WITH the participation of instrumental music in the "teaching and admonishing one another" in songs or being EQUATED WITH the worship of "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God" or being EQUATED WITH revering the papal throne ... is a fallacious and dangerous form of an argument.

In essence, the comparison between: (a) AIDS versus (b) ADDITIONS is exactly as follows:[/color]
APPLES not = ORANGES
zac, no one is stopping you from the way you worship. You can invite a school's cheerleading squad to your worship if you feel the need to uplift your spirit with their performances. Just be aware that the cheerleaders are "external forces" even though you say that "worship comes from within." Right?

And who am I to evaluate or assess your sincerity and devotion? But then, again, who gives the directive? Is it you or another human being? Or, is it God?
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

May 4th, 2009, 5:03 pm #15

Donnie,

You said, "The use of man-made musical devices in worship was neither God-ordained nor God-directed even in the old law."

The Bible - and therefore God - does not agree.

It is no wonder your philosophy and that of your mentors have strayed so far from the Word of God. You seem to deny so much of what the Word of God clearly teaches and instead cling to your man-made conclusions.

I really pity brothers in the Lord such as yourself and your mentors who deny so much of what God has taught in His Holy Word, or twist it into something God never intended in order to fit the traditions taught by mere men.

You have my prayers that you heart will no longer be so hard, and that you will accept all the teachings of God and not the just the buffet variety where you can pick and choose just the parts you like.

Blessings.
The Qahal, synagogue or church in the wilderness was INCLUSIVE of Resting, reading and reharsing the Word of God. It was EXCLUSIVE of vocal or instrument rejoicing. This never changed down through history and you will notice that Jesus STOOD UP to read the word and DECENTLY sat down and waited for discussion. That is why even the Gentiles were ready to hear the gospel:

Acts 15:21 For Moses of old time
hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.


That quarantined them into the Church of Christ (ordained by Christ) FROM the temple where they PROFANED the Sabbath by making sacrifices with loud exorcism NOISE which is never called music. The CHURCH as school is the NARROW WAY and trying to restore the music always for EXORCISM and called SORCERY is even now the BROAD WAY.

No one could without lots of MISTEACHING hallucinate MUSIC because Paul's ONLY worship concept means to give heed to the Word of Christ or that which is written.

No one DARED for almost 400 years and then by the GNOSTICS which defines the "distinctily American form of religion with no connection to historic Christianity."

"In Gnostic circles religious poetry arose to compete with the Old Testament Psalms. Some Catholics therefore distrusted the composition of hymns after this pattern, on the ground that they might smack of heresy. Yet from at least the second century hymns were written by the orthodox which, like their Gnostic counterparts, employed the forms of Greek poetry...

Until near the end of the fourth century, in the services of the Catholic Church
only the Old Testament Psalms and
the hymns or canticles from the New Testament were sung:
the other hymns were for personal family, or private use.

Gradually there were prepared versical paraphrases of the Psalms, hymns
with lines of equal length, and hymns which were acrostic." (Latourette, Christianity. p. 207).

To Ephraim pertains the high and unique distinction of having originated-or at least given its living impulse to-a new departure in sacred literature; and that, not for his own country merely, but for Christendom.

From him came, if not the first idea, at all events the first successful example,
of making song an essential constituent of public worship,
and an exponent of theological teaching;

and from him it spread and prevailed through the Eastern Churches, and affected even those of the West.
To the Hymns, on which chiefly his fame rests, the Syriac ritual in all its forms owes much of its strength and richness; and to them is largely due the place which Hymnody holds throughout the Church everywhere.


Even then Ephraem's hymns would allow you to LEARN the story line of the Old Testament INCLUDING the musical idolatry of the trinity at Mount Sinai."

http://www.piney.com/EphraimHymns.html

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zac
zac

May 10th, 2009, 12:03 am #16

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]zac,

The "law of silence" has been misused and abused in so many ways. It's been misused for the argument that the Scripture does not say "NOT TO"; therefore, it means God's approval or authorization.

I often hear this argument: "The Bible does not say 'not to use instrumental music'; therefore, God does not prohibit its use." Well, the Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not worship 'The Virgin Mary, Mother of God,'" does it? Well, the Bible does not say, "Thou shalt not have a pope as your 'God on earth,'" does it?

The use of air conditioning, toilets, buildings, pews, kitchens, lights, etc., being EQUATED WITH the participation of instrumental music in the "teaching and admonishing one another" in songs or being EQUATED WITH the worship of "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God" or being EQUATED WITH revering the papal throne ... is a fallacious and dangerous form of an argument.

In essence, the comparison between: (a) AIDS versus (b) ADDITIONS is exactly as follows:[/color]
APPLES not = ORANGES
zac, no one is stopping you from the way you worship. You can invite a school's cheerleading squad to your worship if you feel the need to uplift your spirit with their performances. Just be aware that the cheerleaders are "external forces" even though you say that "worship comes from within." Right?

And who am I to evaluate or assess your sincerity and devotion? But then, again, who gives the directive? Is it you or another human being? Or, is it God?
Where do you define instruments as additions and not aids. I would call them aids. Just like a pitch pipe. The instrument helps you keep time and the key and also helps the music dynamically (or aids). Also I think worshipping mary and the pope would be covered in the OT. Something about "You shall have no other gods before me".
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 18th, 2009, 7:06 am #17

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Zac,

How do we determine "aids" versus "additions"? It's based on man's response to God's directive. Here are some examples:


===================================================================
[ God's Command..[ Aid or Addition?..[ Man's Response[ Conclusion ]
===================================================================
[ Baptize........[ Baptistery........[ Baptize.......[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Meet...........[ Church building...[ Meet..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Song books........[ Sing..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Pitch pipe........[ Sing..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Microphone........[ Sing..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Song books........[ Sing..........[ Aid........]
-------------------------------------------------------------------
[ Sing...........[ Piano.............[ Play..........[ Addition...]
===================================================================


As you can tell, man's response is not to PLAY with the pitch pipe or the microphone.

Worship of "The Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good response to the argument: "Where does it say in Scripture, 'Thou shalt not use instrumental music in the assembly of saints'"? Indeed, where does it say in Scripture: "Thou shalt not worship the Virgin Mary"? There's none in Scripture, but we don't worship Mary. And you're correct, it's all covered in "worship our Lord God in heaven." (Same can be said about the Pope, the papapy or the papal throne.)
[/color]
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Chris
Chris

May 18th, 2009, 6:05 pm #18

Donnie,

I appreciate your sharing your Determining Aids and Additions chart with the rest of us here at Concerned Members. However, I do have a question regarding how it is that you determined the Mans Response part in your chart. For to be honest, at first glance, there seems to be some inconsistency as to the answers included in that column of your chart.

First, wouldnt mans response to utilizing song books be to read and sing rather than just sing? Which, according to your chart, would mean that this is not what was commanded; therefore song books should be classified as an addition not an aid.

Second, wouldnt mans response to utilizing pitch pipes be to blow and sing rather than just sing? Which, according to your chart, would mean that this is not what was commanded; therefore pitch pipes should be classified as an addition not an aid.

Third, wouldnt mans response to utilizing microphones be to wear and sing, stand in front of and sing or hold and sing? Which, again, according to your chart is not what was commanded; therefore microphones should be classified as an addition not an aid.

Could you please address the above inconsistencies included in your chart? If you do not feel that these are actual inconsistencies, please explain the difference between read and sing, blow and sing, wear, stand in front of, hold and sing and play and sing and how you determine the first three to be aids but the last one an addition.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 18th, 2009, 8:28 pm #19

Chris,

I find it interesting that you did not bring up the other examples pertaining to the baptistery and the church building. Thanks for the question. I would respond briefly for now as follows:

I would pick on man's response to "PLAY."

  • The instruments are not in question so far as their being in the midst of an assembly alone is concerned.
    </li>
  • . . . and true also as in the case of other objects (song books, pitch pipe, microphones).
    </li>
  • The argument comes up when PLAYING the instruments is involved.
    </li>
  • Since PLAYING the [musical] object is the point of contention, let's use the same rule for the other objects:
    </li>
  • We do not PLAY with songbooks as we sing; we read the words to speak or vocalize the hymn -- which hopefully is pertinent to letting "the word of Christ dwell in us richly in songs." Of course, if we don't need the songbooks to aid us in singing, the better it is.
    </li>
  • We do not PLAY with the pitch pipe as we sing. It aids to determine the tone of the first note. After that determination, the pipe no longer aids the singing.
    </li>
  • The contention that the pitch pipe is another form of a musical instrument is invalid. It can be validated only if there is a pitch pipe with the prepared tone to correspond to each musical note so that there will be multiples of pitch pipes available that are capable of playing the entire hymn. That would require a lot of rehearsals to create music out of several pitch pipes. [I realize Im being facetious but hopefully the point is understood.]
    </li>
  • Same principle applicable to microphones as is to the pitch pipes. We do not PLAY with the microphones, do we? Don't we know that a microphone is useful as an aid so that when God's message is delivered, it can be heard?

    </li>
Again, PLAYING is the key element in all points of argumentation here. As already mentioned, we do not PLAY with microphones, songbooks or pitch pipes. If they're played with, then, they too can become additions. After all, singing is only one of the avenues of letting "the word of Christ dwell in us richly," of "teaching and admonishing one another," of "speaking to yourselves," according to Col. 3:16 and Eph. 5:19.

Frankly, we often lose sight of the fact that even singing is not the key directive stated in those passages. Rather, it is the "TEACHING and ADMONISHING ONE ANOTHER" which the musical devices are incapable of doing.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

May 19th, 2009, 2:29 pm #20

Donnie,

You said, "The use of man-made musical devices in worship was neither God-ordained nor God-directed even in the old law."

The Bible - and therefore God - does not agree.

It is no wonder your philosophy and that of your mentors have strayed so far from the Word of God. You seem to deny so much of what the Word of God clearly teaches and instead cling to your man-made conclusions.

I really pity brothers in the Lord such as yourself and your mentors who deny so much of what God has taught in His Holy Word, or twist it into something God never intended in order to fit the traditions taught by mere men.

You have my prayers that you heart will no longer be so hard, and that you will accept all the teachings of God and not the just the buffet variety where you can pick and choose just the parts you like.

Blessings.
Talk about a pick-and-choose religion, if people are going to fall back on the Old Testament Psalms (like Psalm 150) as their authority for IM in Christian worship, then they will have no qualms about following the other practices of the Law of Moses to which the Psalms refer. Observe:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Now if a person is bent on using the Psalms to justify IM in Christian worship, would he not object to offering burnt sacrifices as the ancient Jews did? The Psalms clearly call for sacrifices. Is a person going to implement the IM but disregard the burnt sacrifices? If he does, then he engages in a pick-and-choose religion.

Or, a person can follow the New Testament entirely and put away the practices of the Old Testament Law of Moses (burnt sacrifices, incense, IM, etc.), which Christ nailed to His cross (Col. 2:14).
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