Three Change Agents Implicated in Seditious Plot to Dismantle the Church of Christ

Roncar
Roncar

April 25th, 2011, 8:22 pm #31

H5397 neshâmâh nesh-aw-maw' From H5395 ; a puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal:blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

If you cannot "make yourself vile" with ALL of those instruments used by the VILE then you are a hypocrite. Since poems tend to be poetic, if Halal 150 is not poetic then you have David COMMANDING that you use those instruments derived from the world of making war and prostitution."

God loves sinners: He NEVER approved of David's musical performance IN the Sancturary since he could not go INTO the sanctuary: the exception when he was starving proves the rule that neither David nor any Levite ever played a musical instrument in a Holy Place typicle of the Church.

Since God abandoned the nation to WORSHIP THE STARRY HOST all bible readers and the Jewish encyclopedia and all writers during this period then you are PROMOTING the worship of the starry host instead of the Creator of the stars.

Under "Star Worship" the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

"Star Worship" is perhaps the oldest form of idolatry practiced by the ancients. The observation of the stars in the East very early led the people to regard the planets and the fixed stars as gods. The religion of the ancient Egyptians is known to have consisted preeminently of Sun-worship. Moses sternly warned the Israelites against worshipping the Sun, Moon, stars, and all the hosts of heaven (Deuteronomy 4:19; 17:3). The Israelites fell into this kind of idolatry and as early as the time of Amos they had the images of Siccuth and Chium, 'the stars of their god' (Amos 5:26); the latter name is generally supposed to denote the planet Saturn. That the Kingdom of Israel fell earlier than that of Judah is stated (II Kings 17:16) to have been due, among other causes, to its worshipping the host of heaven.

But the Kingdom of Judah in its later period seems to have outdone the Northern Kingdom [Israel] in star-worship." Of Manasseh it is related that he built altars to all the hosts of heaven in the two courts of the house of YHWY, and it seems it was the practice of even Kings before him to appoint priests who offered sacrifices to the Sun, the Moon, the planets, and all the hosts of heaven. Altars for star-worship were built on the roofs of the houses, and horses and chariots were dedicated to the worship of the Sun. (II Kings 21:5; 23:4-5, 11-12) Star-worship continued in Judah until the 18th year of Josiah's reign (621 B.C.) when the King took measures to abolish all kinds of idolatry. But although star-worship was then abolished as a public cult, it was practiced privately by individuals who worshipped the heavenly bodies, and poured out libations to them on the roofs of their houses (Zephaniah 1:5; Jeremiah 8:2; 19:13) Jeremiah, who prophesied in the sixth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin (591 B.C.) describes the worship of the Sun as practiced in the court of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:16) and that even after the destruction of the Temple the women insisted on continuing to worship the Queen of Heaven.
"The ancient Hebrews, being nomads like the Arabs, favored the Moon, while the Babylonians, who were an agricultural nation, preferred the Sun. But, as appears from Ezekiel 20:7-8 the Moon-worship of the Israelites, even while they were still in Egypt was combined with Sun-worship."


Maybe you guys are PREDESTINED?
Ken, I believe the Bible is the Inspired Word of God. I believe what you read in Psalm 150 is approved by God.

You do not believe it is the Inspired Word of God so you make it whatever YOU want it to be. Your issues are between you and God.


Praise ye the Lord!
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Dave
Dave

April 25th, 2011, 9:02 pm #32

The Declaration and Address PERVERTED by the musical bandits.

http://www.piney.com/RMDeclarAddress.html#order
WHAT JESUS COMMANDED TO BE TAUGHT AND OBSERVED

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


First. ALL authority belongs to Jesus Whom God made to be both Lord and Christ and Word and Grace.
Second. The command is to GO and make disciples
Third. The ONLY authority is to teach what Christ taught in the Prophets and Jesus made more certain and the Apostles left for our "memory."
Fourth. The EFFECT of Jesus Christ in Spirit being WITH them is based on the contract: YOU teach what I have commanded you to teach.
Fifth. There is no statute of limitations until Jesus returns and returns the Throne and authority to God.
Sixth. A Church of Christ is built upon (educated by) the Prophets and Apostles who were eye-- and ear-- witnesses.
Seventh. Peter said that COMBO was not subject to private interpretation or further expounding: that would mock the testimony that the Father left of His Son.

http://www.piney.com/2.Peter.1.Prophecy ... ation.html

Eighth. Anyone who did not TEACH that which is written is marked as a FALSE TEACHER following the pattern of the FALSE PROPHETS.

http://www.piney.com/2.Peter.2.Instrume ... ption.html

Peter SPECIFICIALLY warned about MUSICAL CORRUPTION.

The FALSE TEACHERS do not honor the Father's endorsement of the testimony (prophets and apostles) when they IGNORE direct commands and OUTLAWING of all of the hypocritic arts and artists when they TWIST the Campbell's to let THEM impose that which Christ and the Campbells FORBID. That is anyting you IMPOSE to deliberately sow discord so you can get your too-close--for--comfort companions a HOLY PLACE to stand and claim to be speaking for God.

2. That although the Church of Christ upon earth must necessarily exist in particular and distinct societies, locally separate one from another, yet there ought to be no schisms, no uncharitable divisions among them. They ought to receive each other as Christ Jesus hath also received them, to the glory of God.

And for this purpose they ought all to walk by the same rule, to mind and speak the same thing; and to be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment.


The ANTI-Biblical and therefore ANTI-Christian churches mock this as impossible. However, Paul repeated Christ's command for the church in the wilderness. SELF-pleasure OUTLAWS all of the music and performing artists:

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification [EDUCATION]
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Any DISCIPLE can understand this without being a detested "rationalists" in the words of John Mark Hicks who claims that the Campbells did NOT get their "hermeneutics" from the bible.

3. That in order to this, nothing ought to be inculcated upon Christians as articles of faith;
nor required of them as terms of communion,
but what is expressly taught and enjoined upon them in the word of God.
Nor ought anything to be admitted, as of Divine obligation, in their Church constitution and managements, (Locke LT)


http://www.piney.com/LockeTol.html#But

but what is expressly enjoined [epitak-tos injunctions, orders] by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and his apostles upon the New Testament Church; either in express terms or by approved precedent.

The ANTIs claim that YOU cannot forbid me from adding anything which is not EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN. The instrumental idolaters REST on the CURSE of the Sacrificial system which THEY think was God's ORIGINAL command for "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment."

4. That although the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are inseparably connected, making together but one perfect and entire revelation of the Divine will, for the edification and salvation of the Church, and therefore in that respect can not be separated;

yet as to what directly and properly belongs to their immediate object, the New Testament is as for the worship, discipline, and government of the New Testament Church, and as perfect a rule for the particular duties of its members,

as the Old Testament was for the worship, discipline, and government of the Old Testament Church, and the particular duties of its members. (Declaration And Address)




Got your attention? Of course, the original article is posted below. You see, politics and religion have something in common -- the liberals and the progressives are out there to subvert, pervert, convert, attack, infiltrate, divide and seek "whom [they] may devour."

Dave is so elated and so quick to sing "Hallelujah!!! Praise the Lord" for that one (Fred Whaley's) congregation that is on its way to a full alignment with either the Community Church or the Christian Church.

As of this writing, Dave has been too cowardly to ask his denominational friends what they know about the church of Christ and instrumental music in the assembly. These friends KNOW, but Dave refuses to acknowledge (but disagrees with his friends) the truth and fact that churches of Christ reject the mechanical operation of musical devices in their assemblies, PERIOD!!! [OK, disregard the punctuation error.]

Oops, I forgot something -- Dave sings "Hallelujah" because one more congregation (Fred's) has been added to the list of churches that have been transformed into "Community Churches" [the denomination] or affiliated with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.

And where's that list of churches MISLED by misleading and confused leaders (shepherds) of their respective congregations? In case you didn't know, there are approximately 40,000 congregations of the church of Christ worldwide. Let's do some math: let's say there are 20 DISSIDENT congregations; divide 39980 by 40000; that's 99.95% -- virtually a hundred percent (100%) since dissident congregations [at no fault of the members but of the mis-leaders] have other affiliations.

Wait, I think I have found the list:
  • The Richland Hills Church of Christ, North Richland Hills, TX, Rick Atchley, minister
    </li>
  • The Quail Springs Church of Christ, Oklahoma City, OK., Mark Henderson, minister.
    </li>
  • Norway Ave. Church of Christ, Huntington, WV, Jeff Garrett, minister.
    </li>
  • The Faithcross Church of Christ, (formerly Tomball Church of Christ) Tomball, TX.
    </li>
  • Oak Hills Church (of Christ), San Antonio, TX, Max Lucado, minister.
    </li>
  • The Farmers Branch Church of Christ, Dallas, TX, Chris Seidman, minister
    </li>
  • The Northwest Church of Christ, Seattle, WA, Milton Jones, minister.
    </li>
  • The Central Church of Christ Cocoa, FL. Don Adkins, minister
    </li>
  • Metro Church of Christ, Orlando, FL, Don Holland, minister
    </li>
  • Bridgeway Church (of Christ) Flowermound, TX, Art, McNeese, minister
    </li>
  • The First Colony Church of Christ, Sugarland, TX, Ronnie Norman, minister
    </li>
  • _____________________________________________________
    </li>
  • _____________________________________________________
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Fred, you boldly proclaim your stance on instrumental music, would you be bold enough to update the list by simply adding your congregation's name above? Don't be shy, ashamed or afraid.

Dave, you espouse that you have "LOVE," but that not anyone of us does. You also espouse your LOVE for those inanimate, lifeless musical devices being played in the assembly of living saints. So, would you boldly add your church to the list? Isn't that the one in Clemson, SC? Or, is it only work-in-progress at this stage?

You MAY able to convince a few folks that an addition of one more church or congregation to the list makes the church, the body of Christ, adherent to such form of musical idolatry. Try it.

Oh, back to the troublemakers in the church and in the country of law-abiding citizens:[/color]
THREE OBAMA OFFICIALS IMPLICATED IN SEDITIOUS PLOT
TO DISMANTLE U.S. CONSTITUTION
URGENT UPDATE: NEW EVIDENCE COMES OUT OF OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS' INVOLVEMENT IN PLAN TO EFFECTUALLY REWRITE THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS. SOROS-FUNDED EFFORT TO FORCE AMERICA INTO ACCEPTING A MARXIST MANIFESTO BY 2012 UNDERWAY IN OBAMA FACTION, LED BY KEY EXECUTIVE BRANCH APPOINTEES.
DEMAND CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS TO STOP
THE DISMANTLING OF AMERICA<b>
</b>
Just days after Marxist Free Market Saboteur Steve Lerners plans for mass May Day national economic disruptions have become known via secretly caught exposure of a taped meeting with other extremists, now new evidence implicates the Obama White House in sedition. Regulatory Czar Cass Sunstein; his wife Samantha Power, Senior Director of the National Security Council; and Department of Justice Attorney General Eric Holder are key players in a related plot to dismantle and destroy America's Constitutional republic.

In April 2005, Sunstein opened a conference at Yale Law School sponsored by George Soros Open Society Institute entitled, "The Constitution in 2020. The event was designed as a forum to craft the agenda and assign the tasks for changing the nature and interpretation of the Constitution into a fully progressive Marxist Manifesto by the year 2020. Sunstein was a natural fit for the conference, as his 2004 book, The Second Bill of Rights: FDR'S Unfinished Revolution and Why We Need It More than Ever proposed a radical new document to replace Americas traditional Bill of Rights.

The conference was co-sponsored by the American Constitution Society, another hard Left Marxist organization which seeks to rewrite the Constitution. Attorney General Eric Holder not only previously served on the ACS Board of Directors, but is keynote speaker for their 2011 Convention.

The Obama faction onslaught against America is coming from all sides. A union thug with White House connections plots to crash the American economy while high ranking Obama officials seek to subvert the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We MUST compel Congress to open investigations and HALT the Obama wrecking crew that is daily dismantling America!

Recent audio has been released which outlines a very real plan to collapse the American economy - including crashing the stock market and disrupting the banking system - in an effort to finally and irrevocably bring about the fundamental change, radical change, Obama promised. The sinister plan is set to take place the first week of May... and evidence suggests the plan may go all the way to the White House.
Please read the above article in its entirety:
Did you hear me Bill?
PERIOD!
You know and so does Donnie that there was no need to rebuke the elders here on a public forum. Again, it shows the childish immature nature of men such as you who choose not to grow up. You believe that there is a double standard: one for you and then one for all other Christians.
It could and SHOULD HAVE BEEN handled within the confines of the Madison congregation.
If the elders were wrong, then take witnesses and if need be, if a private confrontation would not solve the problem, then take it in front of the congregation, but NEVER.....NEVER here for millions to see it. It IS wrong and sinful. In the process of fulfilling your selfish desires you have put the church up for public mockery because you simply, like a child, could not get your way. Furthermore, you know it to be sinful, but you are seeking after your own selfish desires instead of what God would have. Unfortunately Bill, seeking after what God wants you to do involves LOVE! You men don't seem to know what love is.
PERIOD!
Bill, think about this.... Donnie is a member of Madison, and you and I are not. I have shown more love for Madison than the both of you put together. Madison is beautiful, regardless of your curses.
PERIOD!
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Dave
Dave

April 25th, 2011, 9:08 pm #33

The Declaration and Address PERVERTED by the musical bandits.

http://www.piney.com/RMDeclarAddress.html#order
WHAT JESUS COMMANDED TO BE TAUGHT AND OBSERVED

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


First. ALL authority belongs to Jesus Whom God made to be both Lord and Christ and Word and Grace.
Second. The command is to GO and make disciples
Third. The ONLY authority is to teach what Christ taught in the Prophets and Jesus made more certain and the Apostles left for our "memory."
Fourth. The EFFECT of Jesus Christ in Spirit being WITH them is based on the contract: YOU teach what I have commanded you to teach.
Fifth. There is no statute of limitations until Jesus returns and returns the Throne and authority to God.
Sixth. A Church of Christ is built upon (educated by) the Prophets and Apostles who were eye-- and ear-- witnesses.
Seventh. Peter said that COMBO was not subject to private interpretation or further expounding: that would mock the testimony that the Father left of His Son.

http://www.piney.com/2.Peter.1.Prophecy ... ation.html

Eighth. Anyone who did not TEACH that which is written is marked as a FALSE TEACHER following the pattern of the FALSE PROPHETS.

http://www.piney.com/2.Peter.2.Instrume ... ption.html

Peter SPECIFICIALLY warned about MUSICAL CORRUPTION.

The FALSE TEACHERS do not honor the Father's endorsement of the testimony (prophets and apostles) when they IGNORE direct commands and OUTLAWING of all of the hypocritic arts and artists when they TWIST the Campbell's to let THEM impose that which Christ and the Campbells FORBID. That is anyting you IMPOSE to deliberately sow discord so you can get your too-close--for--comfort companions a HOLY PLACE to stand and claim to be speaking for God.

2. That although the Church of Christ upon earth must necessarily exist in particular and distinct societies, locally separate one from another, yet there ought to be no schisms, no uncharitable divisions among them. They ought to receive each other as Christ Jesus hath also received them, to the glory of God.

And for this purpose they ought all to walk by the same rule, to mind and speak the same thing; and to be perfectly joined together in the same mind, and in the same judgment.


The ANTI-Biblical and therefore ANTI-Christian churches mock this as impossible. However, Paul repeated Christ's command for the church in the wilderness. SELF-pleasure OUTLAWS all of the music and performing artists:

Romans 15:1 We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
Romans 15:2 Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification [EDUCATION]
Romans 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.
Romans 15:5 Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:
Romans 15:6 That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.


Any DISCIPLE can understand this without being a detested "rationalists" in the words of John Mark Hicks who claims that the Campbells did NOT get their "hermeneutics" from the bible.

3. That in order to this, nothing ought to be inculcated upon Christians as articles of faith;
nor required of them as terms of communion,
but what is expressly taught and enjoined upon them in the word of God.
Nor ought anything to be admitted, as of Divine obligation, in their Church constitution and managements, (Locke LT)


http://www.piney.com/LockeTol.html#But

but what is expressly enjoined [epitak-tos injunctions, orders] by the authority of our Lord Jesus Christ and his apostles upon the New Testament Church; either in express terms or by approved precedent.

The ANTIs claim that YOU cannot forbid me from adding anything which is not EXPRESSLY FORBIDDEN. The instrumental idolaters REST on the CURSE of the Sacrificial system which THEY think was God's ORIGINAL command for "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment."

4. That although the Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments are inseparably connected, making together but one perfect and entire revelation of the Divine will, for the edification and salvation of the Church, and therefore in that respect can not be separated;

yet as to what directly and properly belongs to their immediate object, the New Testament is as for the worship, discipline, and government of the New Testament Church, and as perfect a rule for the particular duties of its members,

as the Old Testament was for the worship, discipline, and government of the Old Testament Church, and the particular duties of its members. (Declaration And Address)




Got your attention? Of course, the original article is posted below. You see, politics and religion have something in common -- the liberals and the progressives are out there to subvert, pervert, convert, attack, infiltrate, divide and seek "whom [they] may devour."

Dave is so elated and so quick to sing "Hallelujah!!! Praise the Lord" for that one (Fred Whaley's) congregation that is on its way to a full alignment with either the Community Church or the Christian Church.

As of this writing, Dave has been too cowardly to ask his denominational friends what they know about the church of Christ and instrumental music in the assembly. These friends KNOW, but Dave refuses to acknowledge (but disagrees with his friends) the truth and fact that churches of Christ reject the mechanical operation of musical devices in their assemblies, PERIOD!!! [OK, disregard the punctuation error.]

Oops, I forgot something -- Dave sings "Hallelujah" because one more congregation (Fred's) has been added to the list of churches that have been transformed into "Community Churches" [the denomination] or affiliated with the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ.

And where's that list of churches MISLED by misleading and confused leaders (shepherds) of their respective congregations? In case you didn't know, there are approximately 40,000 congregations of the church of Christ worldwide. Let's do some math: let's say there are 20 DISSIDENT congregations; divide 39980 by 40000; that's 99.95% -- virtually a hundred percent (100%) since dissident congregations [at no fault of the members but of the mis-leaders] have other affiliations.

Wait, I think I have found the list:
  • The Richland Hills Church of Christ, North Richland Hills, TX, Rick Atchley, minister
    </li>
  • The Quail Springs Church of Christ, Oklahoma City, OK., Mark Henderson, minister.
    </li>
  • Norway Ave. Church of Christ, Huntington, WV, Jeff Garrett, minister.
    </li>
  • The Faithcross Church of Christ, (formerly Tomball Church of Christ) Tomball, TX.
    </li>
  • Oak Hills Church (of Christ), San Antonio, TX, Max Lucado, minister.
    </li>
  • The Farmers Branch Church of Christ, Dallas, TX, Chris Seidman, minister
    </li>
  • The Northwest Church of Christ, Seattle, WA, Milton Jones, minister.
    </li>
  • The Central Church of Christ Cocoa, FL. Don Adkins, minister
    </li>
  • Metro Church of Christ, Orlando, FL, Don Holland, minister
    </li>
  • Bridgeway Church (of Christ) Flowermound, TX, Art, McNeese, minister
    </li>
  • The First Colony Church of Christ, Sugarland, TX, Ronnie Norman, minister
    </li>
  • _____________________________________________________
    </li>
  • _____________________________________________________
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Fred, you boldly proclaim your stance on instrumental music, would you be bold enough to update the list by simply adding your congregation's name above? Don't be shy, ashamed or afraid.

Dave, you espouse that you have "LOVE," but that not anyone of us does. You also espouse your LOVE for those inanimate, lifeless musical devices being played in the assembly of living saints. So, would you boldly add your church to the list? Isn't that the one in Clemson, SC? Or, is it only work-in-progress at this stage?

You MAY able to convince a few folks that an addition of one more church or congregation to the list makes the church, the body of Christ, adherent to such form of musical idolatry. Try it.

Oh, back to the troublemakers in the church and in the country of law-abiding citizens:[/color]
THREE OBAMA OFFICIALS IMPLICATED IN SEDITIOUS PLOT
TO DISMANTLE U.S. CONSTITUTION
URGENT UPDATE: NEW EVIDENCE COMES OUT OF OBAMA ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS' INVOLVEMENT IN PLAN TO EFFECTUALLY REWRITE THE U.S. CONSTITUTION AND BILL OF RIGHTS. SOROS-FUNDED EFFORT TO FORCE AMERICA INTO ACCEPTING A MARXIST MANIFESTO BY 2012 UNDERWAY IN OBAMA FACTION, LED BY KEY EXECUTIVE BRANCH APPOINTEES.
DEMAND CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGS TO STOP
THE DISMANTLING OF AMERICA<b>
</b>
Just days after Marxist Free Market Saboteur Steve Lerners plans for mass May Day national economic disruptions have become known via secretly caught exposure of a taped meeting with other extremists, now new evidence implicates the Obama White House in sedition. Regulatory Czar Cass Sunstein; his wife Samantha Power, Senior Director of the National Security Council; and Department of Justice Attorney General Eric Holder are key players in a related plot to dismantle and destroy America's Constitutional republic.

In April 2005, Sunstein opened a conference at Yale Law School sponsored by George Soros Open Society Institute entitled, "The Constitution in 2020. The event was designed as a forum to craft the agenda and assign the tasks for changing the nature and interpretation of the Constitution into a fully progressive Marxist Manifesto by the year 2020. Sunstein was a natural fit for the conference, as his 2004 book, The Second Bill of Rights: FDR'S Unfinished Revolution and Why We Need It More than Ever proposed a radical new document to replace Americas traditional Bill of Rights.

The conference was co-sponsored by the American Constitution Society, another hard Left Marxist organization which seeks to rewrite the Constitution. Attorney General Eric Holder not only previously served on the ACS Board of Directors, but is keynote speaker for their 2011 Convention.

The Obama faction onslaught against America is coming from all sides. A union thug with White House connections plots to crash the American economy while high ranking Obama officials seek to subvert the Constitution and Bill of Rights. We MUST compel Congress to open investigations and HALT the Obama wrecking crew that is daily dismantling America!

Recent audio has been released which outlines a very real plan to collapse the American economy - including crashing the stock market and disrupting the banking system - in an effort to finally and irrevocably bring about the fundamental change, radical change, Obama promised. The sinister plan is set to take place the first week of May... and evidence suggests the plan may go all the way to the White House.
Please read the above article in its entirety:
Bill, you said...."Although the Internet was not available in the first century, it is in the 21st century. Any letter addressed to the elders of any church and published via the Internet becomes public; hence, all those who read it become witnesses to any questions or accusations made against those elders."

This is how I know that you will go to any and all lengths to win an argument, although it has NOTHING to do with doing the Will of God.

ALL who read this become witnesses??? ALL would include those outside the Lord?
You see the depth of your ridiculousness? What is even worse, those who ARE outside the Lord....would they care to be a part of something like this?
It is pathetic. You men need to repent....NOW!

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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

April 25th, 2011, 9:41 pm #34

Sorry Ken, Psalm 150 was in the Bible yesterday and today. I am sure it will there tomorrow also. Ken would very much like to discredit Psalm 150 because he knows it shows God's approval of instrumental music. Sorry Ken, God showed his approval and He never changed from that.

Ken, you know Paul was once a sinner also. That is true for all of us. God used David in His own way to give us His Word. Ken, who are you to question God and His Word?

Perhaps Ken is full of Halal?
Psalm 150 mentions instrumental music. The Psalms also mention burnt offerings and sacrifices. For example:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Psalm 66 was in the Bible yesterday and today. I am sure it will be there tomorrow also. Some Christians cite Psalm 150 as "proof" that God approves of instrumental music in Christian worship. Yet Psalm 150 mentions nothing about Christian worship. According to Psalm 66, God also approves of burnt offerings, yet those same Christians say that burnt offerings no longer apply today, because Jesus became our ultimate sacrifice:

"Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]" (Hebrews 10:8-10 KJV).

Alright, the New Testament shows that burnt offerings and sacrifices went out with the New Covenant. Likewise, there should be similar New Testament evidence that instrumental music is to be perpetuated with the New Covenant. Yet there is no such evidence. Since the change in Covenants brought changes in worship practices, why would the New Testament explicitly tell us to abandon burnt offerings but fail to mention instruments of all things, if the latter are so vital to Christian worship?

The answer is that worldly man made the erroneous assumption that instruments are to be carried over into Christian worship. That assumption is based on man's personal preferences and desires; it is based on the fallacious premise of "God didn't say not to," a premise designed to circumvent the New Testament; and it is based on absolutely nothing found in the New Testament.

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Jimmy Joe
Jimmy Joe

April 25th, 2011, 9:50 pm #35

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

According to Dave [YOU], Donnie is the problem and is, therefore, responsible for implementing the Community Church's scheme to "grow the church" at Madison. That Donnie taught Madison Rick Warren's culture-driven philosophy from his manual: "The Purpose Driven Church." That Donnie caused the elders to be divided between these decisions: (1) should Madison go the Community Church way or (2) should Madison remain peaceful and a city on the hill without influences by the change agents? That Donnie caused the division in its membership where hundreds of members left in droves.

Well, Dave, it is unfortunate that you've come to that conclusion. Where's your source of information?

Although ConcernedMembers was not even conceived until way AFTER the leadership had already succumbed to the slick and subtle but destructive ways of the agents of change, with the intrusion and the subversion process virtually complete, at least it was there to observe firsthand what was going on. (And some poor and unknown--and is still--Donnie joined CM even later than that.)

Again, your conclusion that Donnie was/is the problem and caused the havoc in the church, is purely a prevarication on your part.

Here we are discussing "instrumental music" ... supposedly. And you, Dave, just can't help but bring up "the elders" issue. And I have patiently explained it over and over to you. But nothing has sunk in. Just what is your problem? Are you no longer an elder yourself?

While the Scripture teaches that we are to "rebuke not an elder" [and I haven't done that] and that the elders are to "be counted worthy of double honour" [and I am for that], it is contingent upon:

(1) That the elders rule well;
(2) That they are to labor in word and doctrine;
(3) That they are to be blameless;
(4) That they are holding fast the faithful word...
(5) ... as they have been TAUGHT.
(6) [I'm sure you know all the other qualifications]

Well, Dave, I have no control over wrong decisions they make. And you know, too, that they're no longer human if they no longer make mistakes and no longer take responsibility for those mistakes.

The truth of the matter is that you are one of those in the church who continue to preach your own denominationally-acquired teachings and beliefs. If there is nothing else for you to remember, know that you are the one going against the grain--the fellowship of churches of Christ will remain as non-followers of your gospel of musical instruments that you and the change agents propagate. Don't be ignorant of church history about division to let history repeat itself. Remember 1906 -- if you even know what occurred then.[/color]
Donnie,
I cannot believe you have not commented on the 10:30 Easter service at Madison. I know you were there as I checked the critics pew late in the service. I personally found it uplifting and I thought the hypothetical view of the Roman soldier was very interesting. I don't know if you were too astonished to respond or it's taking you a while to arrange your thoughts.

Give us a feedback if you deem it worthy.

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Roncar
Roncar

April 25th, 2011, 10:15 pm #36

When people reject Dave's faulty theology, Dave turns on them and makes them out to be the villains. Often, he says his opponents have "no love." At other times, Dave behaves like a woman scorned when a man rejects her seductions. She turns her rage on the man and accuses him of sexual harassment and rape. In other words, that scorned woman prevaricates. Donnie rejects Dave's pro-IM seductions, so Dave rages that Donnie has caused havoc in the church. Like the scorned woman, a scorned Dave prevaricates.
Dr. Crump, perhaps your spare time would be better spent reading medical journals instead of cheap romance novels.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 25th, 2011, 10:56 pm #37

Bill, you said...."Although the Internet was not available in the first century, it is in the 21st century. Any letter addressed to the elders of any church and published via the Internet becomes public; hence, all those who read it become witnesses to any questions or accusations made against those elders."

This is how I know that you will go to any and all lengths to win an argument, although it has NOTHING to do with doing the Will of God.

ALL who read this become witnesses??? ALL would include those outside the Lord?
You see the depth of your ridiculousness? What is even worse, those who ARE outside the Lord....would they care to be a part of something like this?
It is pathetic. You men need to repent....NOW!
Doc quoted:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Christ spoke through the prophets: not the unlawful king

Hosea 14:2 Take with you words, and turn to the LORD: say unto him, Take away all iniquity, and receive us graciously: so will we render the calves of our lips.

Micah 6:6 ¶ Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, and bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old?
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

April 26th, 2011, 12:36 am #38

Did you hear me Bill?
PERIOD!
You know and so does Donnie that there was no need to rebuke the elders here on a public forum. Again, it shows the childish immature nature of men such as you who choose not to grow up. You believe that there is a double standard: one for you and then one for all other Christians.
It could and SHOULD HAVE BEEN handled within the confines of the Madison congregation.
If the elders were wrong, then take witnesses and if need be, if a private confrontation would not solve the problem, then take it in front of the congregation, but NEVER.....NEVER here for millions to see it. It IS wrong and sinful. In the process of fulfilling your selfish desires you have put the church up for public mockery because you simply, like a child, could not get your way. Furthermore, you know it to be sinful, but you are seeking after your own selfish desires instead of what God would have. Unfortunately Bill, seeking after what God wants you to do involves LOVE! You men don't seem to know what love is.
PERIOD!
Bill, think about this.... Donnie is a member of Madison, and you and I are not. I have shown more love for Madison than the both of you put together. Madison is beautiful, regardless of your curses.
PERIOD!
Since Dave feels that he has been backed into a corner, I can understand why he manifests such anxiety and hostility. It is ironic, however, that one such as Dave would talk about "love" out of one side of his mouth and spray such anxiety and hostility out of the other side.
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Rocky
Rocky

April 26th, 2011, 12:45 am #39

Psalm 150 mentions instrumental music. The Psalms also mention burnt offerings and sacrifices. For example:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Psalm 66 was in the Bible yesterday and today. I am sure it will be there tomorrow also. Some Christians cite Psalm 150 as "proof" that God approves of instrumental music in Christian worship. Yet Psalm 150 mentions nothing about Christian worship. According to Psalm 66, God also approves of burnt offerings, yet those same Christians say that burnt offerings no longer apply today, because Jesus became our ultimate sacrifice:

"Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]" (Hebrews 10:8-10 KJV).

Alright, the New Testament shows that burnt offerings and sacrifices went out with the New Covenant. Likewise, there should be similar New Testament evidence that instrumental music is to be perpetuated with the New Covenant. Yet there is no such evidence. Since the change in Covenants brought changes in worship practices, why would the New Testament explicitly tell us to abandon burnt offerings but fail to mention instruments of all things, if the latter are so vital to Christian worship?

The answer is that worldly man made the erroneous assumption that instruments are to be carried over into Christian worship. That assumption is based on man's personal preferences and desires; it is based on the fallacious premise of "God didn't say not to," a premise designed to circumvent the New Testament; and it is based on absolutely nothing found in the New Testament.
Dr. Crump, drink a half cup of Maalox and get a good nights sleep. You should feel better in the morning.
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Rocky
Rocky

April 26th, 2011, 3:53 am #40

Psalm 150 mentions instrumental music. The Psalms also mention burnt offerings and sacrifices. For example:

"I will go into thy house with burnt offerings: I will pay thee my vows, Which my lips have uttered, and my mouth hath spoken, when I was in trouble. I will offer unto thee burnt sacrifices of fatlings, with the incense of rams; I will offer bullocks with goats. Selah" (Psalm 66:13-15 KJV).

Psalm 66 was in the Bible yesterday and today. I am sure it will be there tomorrow also. Some Christians cite Psalm 150 as "proof" that God approves of instrumental music in Christian worship. Yet Psalm 150 mentions nothing about Christian worship. According to Psalm 66, God also approves of burnt offerings, yet those same Christians say that burnt offerings no longer apply today, because Jesus became our ultimate sacrifice:

"Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and [offering] for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure [therein]; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all]" (Hebrews 10:8-10 KJV).

Alright, the New Testament shows that burnt offerings and sacrifices went out with the New Covenant. Likewise, there should be similar New Testament evidence that instrumental music is to be perpetuated with the New Covenant. Yet there is no such evidence. Since the change in Covenants brought changes in worship practices, why would the New Testament explicitly tell us to abandon burnt offerings but fail to mention instruments of all things, if the latter are so vital to Christian worship?

The answer is that worldly man made the erroneous assumption that instruments are to be carried over into Christian worship. That assumption is based on man's personal preferences and desires; it is based on the fallacious premise of "God didn't say not to," a premise designed to circumvent the New Testament; and it is based on absolutely nothing found in the New Testament.
I think Dr. Crump nailed it. God approved instrumental music and never changed His mind. Does God ever change His mind?
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