B
B

April 16th, 2013, 4:00 am #41

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I NEVER see the expression "in the name of the Father, Son and the holy spirit" as a problem. You DO ... when the preposition in "the spirit OF" is in the picture.

You are the one creating the problem by pitting Matt. 28:19 against the 70 references that clearly define and identify "the holy spirit."

I have said numerous times already that there is no contradiction between Matt. 28:19 and the 70 scriptural references. So, here's the big question for you. Please be honest. Do you believe that "the holy spirit" in Matt. 28:19 is DIFFERENT from "the holy spirit" (with the preposition "OF") identified by/in those 70 passages?

(1) Do you rely on the Trinitarian creed that there is a separate THIRD PERSON HOLY SPIRIT = GOD?
---------------------- OR --------------------
(2) Do you trust the scores and scores of passages that clearly identify "the holy spirit" as "the spirit of God"?

BOTH are COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

And you cannot have it both ways, B.

Again, the Scripture (some 70 passages) explain that:

"In the name of the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit"
--------------- is the same as -----------------
"In the name of the Father, the Son and the holy Spirit OF God"


Do you recall the very well-known passage in Eph. 4:30? It says: "And grieve not the holy Spirit OF God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption."

So explicit: that there is only one "HOLY SPIRIT." WHOSE spirit, B? God's Spirit which is HOLY. Thank our Lord God that it is HIS spirit which is holy, instead of a spirit that is evil.[/color]
Does the New Testament command us to adopt Matt. 28:19 as the ONLY correct concept regarding this matter? NO.

Does the New Testament command us to adopt the many passages of "the spirit of..." as the ONLY correct concept regarding this matter? NO.

BTW, don't think for one minute that because there are some 70 passages about "the spirit of..." then Matt. 28:19 is "outvoted" or is null and void. ALL those passages have EQUAL WEIGHT.

Then what is your problem? We are not commanded that one concept is THE one-and-only concept and all others are wrong and sinful. YOU think accepting Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not THE concept to adopt, because the Catholics and so-called "Trinitarians" have adopted that concept. The Father-Son-Holy Spirit concept is just as biblical (Matt. 28:19) as is the concept of "the spirit of..."

Some people like me relate more to the Father-Son-Holy Spirit concept WITHOUT envisioning them as persons or physical entities or "Trinity" or "triad" or any other thing. That's fine. Other people like you relate more to "the spirit of..." concept. That's also fine, but you take it a step further and imply that, unless everyone adopts YOUR concept of this matter, then they are absolutely dead wrong.

Because the New Testament allows us the freedom to adopt either concept, because the New Testament does not threaten EITHER concept with a damnation clause, then yes indeed, we actually CAN have it both ways.

See how utterly simple it all is?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 16th, 2013, 4:49 am #42

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]B,

Just trust the Holy Scripture: there is no controversy in ALL those passages.

The 70 references to "the holy spirit" are telling YOU and ME that it is THE SAME HOLY SPIRIT mentioned "in the name of the Father, the Son and the holy spirit."

WHOSE spirit is it? God's or Christ's or the Father's -- that is the simple answer to that simple question that you've been so AFRAID and ASHAMED to answer.

God did not intend for man to invent, discover, create or generate ANOTHER "holy spirit" to be masculine-gendered and called "God" by man.

But the Bible says there is only ONE SPIRIT -- Ephesians 4:4.

And that ONE SPIRIT, the Bible says again, is "the holy spirit 'OF GOD'" -- Ephesians 4:30.[/color]

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 16th, 2013, 5:03 am #43

Does the New Testament command us to adopt Matt. 28:19 as the ONLY correct concept regarding this matter? NO.

Does the New Testament command us to adopt the many passages of "the spirit of..." as the ONLY correct concept regarding this matter? NO.

BTW, don't think for one minute that because there are some 70 passages about "the spirit of..." then Matt. 28:19 is "outvoted" or is null and void. ALL those passages have EQUAL WEIGHT.

Then what is your problem? We are not commanded that one concept is THE one-and-only concept and all others are wrong and sinful. YOU think accepting Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not THE concept to adopt, because the Catholics and so-called "Trinitarians" have adopted that concept. The Father-Son-Holy Spirit concept is just as biblical (Matt. 28:19) as is the concept of "the spirit of..."

Some people like me relate more to the Father-Son-Holy Spirit concept WITHOUT envisioning them as persons or physical entities or "Trinity" or "triad" or any other thing. That's fine. Other people like you relate more to "the spirit of..." concept. That's also fine, but you take it a step further and imply that, unless everyone adopts YOUR concept of this matter, then they are absolutely dead wrong.

Because the New Testament allows us the freedom to adopt either concept, because the New Testament does not threaten EITHER concept with a damnation clause, then yes indeed, we actually CAN have it both ways.

See how utterly simple it all is?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It's really unfortunate that the 70 scriptural references to "the [holy] spirit OF _______" are just a "concept" to you.

Those scriptures are "truth" -- not "concept."[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 16th, 2013, 5:21 am #44

Does the New Testament command us to adopt Matt. 28:19 as the ONLY correct concept regarding this matter? NO.

Does the New Testament command us to adopt the many passages of "the spirit of..." as the ONLY correct concept regarding this matter? NO.

BTW, don't think for one minute that because there are some 70 passages about "the spirit of..." then Matt. 28:19 is "outvoted" or is null and void. ALL those passages have EQUAL WEIGHT.

Then what is your problem? We are not commanded that one concept is THE one-and-only concept and all others are wrong and sinful. YOU think accepting Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is not THE concept to adopt, because the Catholics and so-called "Trinitarians" have adopted that concept. The Father-Son-Holy Spirit concept is just as biblical (Matt. 28:19) as is the concept of "the spirit of..."

Some people like me relate more to the Father-Son-Holy Spirit concept WITHOUT envisioning them as persons or physical entities or "Trinity" or "triad" or any other thing. That's fine. Other people like you relate more to "the spirit of..." concept. That's also fine, but you take it a step further and imply that, unless everyone adopts YOUR concept of this matter, then they are absolutely dead wrong.

Because the New Testament allows us the freedom to adopt either concept, because the New Testament does not threaten EITHER concept with a damnation clause, then yes indeed, we actually CAN have it both ways.

See how utterly simple it all is?
You said, "BTW, don't think for one minute that because there are some 70 passages about "the spirit of..." then Matt. 28:19 is "outvoted" or is null and void. ALL those passages have EQUAL WEIGHT."

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Please don't attempt to prevaricate for me. The only true and accurate statement you made is that: "ALL those passages have EQUAL WEIGHT."

I'll ask you for the last time: "Do you believe that "the holy spirit" in Matt. 28:19 is DIFFERENT FROM "the holy spirit OF GOD" in Eph. 4:30? Be straightforward, please. And don't allow me to think that you do not understand the preposition "OF" that precedes "God."[/color]
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B

April 16th, 2013, 6:15 am #45

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It's really unfortunate that the 70 scriptural references to "the [holy] spirit OF _______" are just a "concept" to you.

Those scriptures are "truth" -- not "concept."[/color]
Is not the CONCEPT of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit biblical truth?

Is not the CONCEPT of "the spirit of..." also biblical truth?

I recognize BOTH CONCEPTS as biblical truths, but I sense that you cannot fully accept the CONCEPT of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" as an equal, biblical truth. To you, the CONCEPT of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" means Catholic Trinity akin to a pagan triad; hence, it is an untruthful CONCEPT to you.

You have to take Father, Son, and Holy Spirit just as Jesus mentioned them in Matt. 28:19. They are not three physical persons as the so-called "Trinity" concept envisions them. They are spiritual identities. Are they three-in-one or one-in-three or some other combination? Does is REALLY matter? Will we be damned if we envision them ARRANGED one way and not another way? There's no evidence to that effect in the New Testament. Take comfort in that.

Just believe in the equally truthful CONCEPTS of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as well as "the spirit of..." and don't try to dissect them any further. You'll only become more confused and agitated.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 16th, 2013, 4:44 pm #46

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The Spirit OF Jesus Christ the Lord is the Holy Spirit!!!

That truth invalidates the doctrinal theory that the Holy Spirit is a person with a male gender identity.

Furthermore, numerous expressions associated with the "holy spirit" show possession for the following very significant reasons:

(1) Because the word "spirit" precedes the preposition "OF" as in "the spirit of"
(2) Because the word "spirit" follows the pronoun "HIS"


For the sake of simplification, consider the following expressions that identify "possession" or "that which belongs": the mind OF the child ... the big nose OF Durante ... her big mouth ... the unholy spirit OF man, etc. It means, respectively that the mind is not the child; that the mouth is not the person; that the unholy spirit is not the man.

There are innumerable references to the truth that the "holy spirit" is an entity or an attribute WHICH belongs to ______________:[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)

    Plus, WHOSE Spirit [indicating possession] is it?

    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12) </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Hopefully, you've paid careful attention to reading and studying [NOT speed-reading] all the passages above.

Whether it is of the Lord ... or of God ... or of the living God ... or of the Father ... or of the Lord Jesus Christ: HIS SPIRIT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT; HIS SPIRIT DOES NOT INVENT, GENERATE OR CREATE ANOTHER HOLY SPIRIT!!![/color]
The first recorded use of "trias"

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 17th, 2013, 1:16 am #47

Is not the CONCEPT of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit biblical truth?

Is not the CONCEPT of "the spirit of..." also biblical truth?

I recognize BOTH CONCEPTS as biblical truths, but I sense that you cannot fully accept the CONCEPT of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" as an equal, biblical truth. To you, the CONCEPT of "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" means Catholic Trinity akin to a pagan triad; hence, it is an untruthful CONCEPT to you.

You have to take Father, Son, and Holy Spirit just as Jesus mentioned them in Matt. 28:19. They are not three physical persons as the so-called "Trinity" concept envisions them. They are spiritual identities. Are they three-in-one or one-in-three or some other combination? Does is REALLY matter? Will we be damned if we envision them ARRANGED one way and not another way? There's no evidence to that effect in the New Testament. Take comfort in that.

Just believe in the equally truthful CONCEPTS of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as well as "the spirit of..." and don't try to dissect them any further. You'll only become more confused and agitated.
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Confused? No!!!

Agitated? Yes! By you repeatedly "advising" that conceptual differences {e.g., either that the world is flat or that the world is a sphere) are true and acceptable as truth.

Agitated? Yes! Again. By you NOT presenting your own argument or reason for believing that "the holy spirit" in Matt. 28:19 is NOT "the holy spirit OF GOD" (Eph. 4:20).

QUESTION for B: [/color]
[color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]Do you believe that:
"the holy spirit" in Matt. 28:19
-------------- is NOT -------------
"the holy spirit OF GOD" in Eph. 4:20?
[/color]
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B

April 17th, 2013, 1:54 am #48

As I cautioned before, don't try to dissect Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As Jesus mentioned them, just believe that they ARE.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 17th, 2013, 3:52 am #49

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I do not need your caution. It is a simple question about "the holy spirit" itself [sorry, you'd say "himself"].

I'm not dissecting a frog, B.

The question requires an answer: (a) yes; (b) no; (c) I do not know; (d) not sure; (e) "you really got me"; (f) let me research first; (g) I'll study the Bible more.

QUESTION for B: [/color]
[color=#FF0000" size="4" face="times]Do you believe that:
"the holy spirit" in Matt. 28:19
-------------- is NOT -------------
"the holy spirit OF GOD" in Eph. 4:20?
[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 17th, 2013, 5:14 am #50

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The Spirit OF Jesus Christ the Lord is the Holy Spirit!!!

That truth invalidates the doctrinal theory that the Holy Spirit is a person with a male gender identity.

Furthermore, numerous expressions associated with the "holy spirit" show possession for the following very significant reasons:

(1) Because the word "spirit" precedes the preposition "OF" as in "the spirit of"
(2) Because the word "spirit" follows the pronoun "HIS"


For the sake of simplification, consider the following expressions that identify "possession" or "that which belongs": the mind OF the child ... the big nose OF Durante ... her big mouth ... the unholy spirit OF man, etc. It means, respectively that the mind is not the child; that the mouth is not the person; that the unholy spirit is not the man.

There are innumerable references to the truth that the "holy spirit" is an entity or an attribute WHICH belongs to ______________:[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)

    Plus, WHOSE Spirit [indicating possession] is it?

    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12) </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Hopefully, you've paid careful attention to reading and studying [NOT speed-reading] all the passages above.

Whether it is of the Lord ... or of God ... or of the living God ... or of the Father ... or of the Lord Jesus Christ: HIS SPIRIT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT; HIS SPIRIT DOES NOT INVENT, GENERATE OR CREATE ANOTHER HOLY SPIRIT!!![/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Let's study these passages that make reference to "the holy spirit" [cap or no cap per translator's rule]:[/color]
  • "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit." (Matt. 28:19 NASB)

    ----------------------------------------

    </li>
  • "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4:30 KJV)</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]QUESTION:[/color]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Do you believe that:[/color]
<blockquote><blockquote><blockquote>[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]"the holy Spirit of GOD" in Ephesians 4:30

-------------- is NOT -------------

"the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 28:19?
[/color]
</blockquote></blockquote></blockquote>
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