The Spirit of Christ the Lord Is the Holy Spirit

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B

April 13th, 2013, 2:41 am #21

Since the New Testament contains a number of phrases beginning with "the spirit of..." and ending with "God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son," etc., does that mean Jesus was incorrect when He explicitly mentioned Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in Matt. 28:19? Some would go so far as to say so or at least to imply it by vehemently resisting any reference to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together in the same sentence.

The bottom line is that since "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son," etc., as well as "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are ALL terms or phrases found in the New Testament, then we may form our own opinions and perceptions of how they are arranged in the spiritual realm. Their spiritual function does not in any way depend on how we perceive them.

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 13th, 2013, 4:19 am #22

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Thanks for that recognition [finally] -- that the expression "the spirit of _________" is mentioned in the entire Scripture. It's overwhelming to me to count as many as 70 such references in the Bible [KJV].

I do not know of anyone "vehemently resisting any reference to Father, Son, and Holy Spirit together in the same sentence." Even if it appears only once in the entire Bible.

All those references are in the Scripture. They are all true.

The key issue in the discussion is whether or not the third entity in Matt. 28:19, the "spirit" [modified by the adjective "holy"], is a common noun or a proper noun. (Let's not be misled for now that translators capitalized the words.)

That's why we keep bringing up other references to help clarify the confusion, such as those numerous, numerous passages that mention "the [holy] spirit OF _______" [about 70 verses]. Also, consider these references to "the holy spirit" that certainly indicate that it [such spirit] BELONGS:[/color]
  • "[10] Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. [11] Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." (Psalm 51)

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  • "[10] But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. [11] ... Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people, saying, Where is he that brought them up out of the sea with the shepherd of his flock? where is he that put his holy Spirit within him?" (Isaiah 63)

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  • "[30] And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Eph. 4)

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  • [8] He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit. (I Thess. 4)</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"The spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son" [as you summarized it, thank you] is that one and only "holy spirit."

Christians must always remember: "And grieve not the holy Spirit of God[/color], whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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April 13th, 2013, 7:05 am #23

By acknowledging that the phrases and terms "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son," etc., as well as "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit" are all found in the New Testament, I meant that there is nothing sinful if our concepts differ about their arrangement in the spiritual realm. For example, some people believe in the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as such; therefore, they relate better to three spiritual identities. There is nothing sinful about that. Other people believe in the concept of the Father and Son as such, while recognizing "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son," etc. There is nothing sinful about that. And still others believe in only the One Supreme God, Who manifests Himself as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is nothing sinful about that.

Because we are not commanded that we must embrace this or that concept about how God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are arranged in the spiritual realm, then we are at liberty to form our own personal concepts about that arrangement.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 13th, 2013, 5:08 pm #24

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is nothing sinful in my observation that you acknowledged for the first time (in spite of your "grammatical prowess") that the preposition "OF" is in the expression: "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son."

Concerning "nothing is sinful about that," it is not for me or this board to assert that. I have not said it, and much of the researched data presented here points out that the historical triads of Babylon, Egypt and other nations are PAGAN. Is it a surprise that even the eventual Roman Catholic Church/papacy-driven triads [including the Father, Son and Mother of God triad] were of pagan origin?

There are also disagreements between: (1) that the body of Christ, the church, is comprised of those whose conversion process was completed when they were baptized in order to have sins remitted; and (2) that the body of Christ, the church, is comprised of all denominational religious groups.

Should you say "nothing is sinful about that" either way?

We should just let the Scripture make that call: "nothing is sinful about that."

It is certainly not sinful to present the scores and scores of passages that refer to: "the spirit of...God/Lord/Christ/Father/Son."

To me there's nothing confusing about the "arrangement" or hierarchical structure or the identities of the 3 entities. The thorough analysis of the significance of the preposition "OF" in some 70 scriptural references clearly defines relationships and identities.

Simply, let's take a look at: "the unholy mind [or "spirit"] OF man:

1. There is MAN.
2. There is the "unholy mind" of MAN.
3. Is the "mind" an entity? Yes.
4. What modifies the "mind" of MAN? The word: "unholy" does...
5. Does the "mind" which is "unholy" belong to MAN? Yes
6. Is the "mind" a separate being from MAN? Hopefully NOT.


Educate us, B. Tell us more about the preposition "OF" in our discussion. Your participation is important.[/color]
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April 13th, 2013, 6:37 pm #25

I neither worry about nor fixate on the preposition "of." That is sufficient unto itself.

You mentioned paganism. Is it a surprise that in the mythology of certain pagan cultures, certain gods were said to have been born of virgins? Jesus was also born of a virgin, yet despite the parallel, that certainly does not make Him pagan. Likewise, the pagan triads of gods in pagan cultures does not mean that the triad of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit is pagan. If that triad were pagan, Jesus would not have mentioned it in Matt. 28:19. Therefore, that triad is scripturally legitimate and is not man-made. On the other hand, the Catholic church altered that triad by substituting in the Virgin Mary, the "mother of God," as a supposedly divine entity. We do not recognize that particular man-made triad.

"We should just let the Scripture make that call: 'nothing is sinful about that.'" I have already let the Scriptures make the call: there is no command about how we must focus our perceptions of the arrangement of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Because the New Testament assigns no penalty for differences of perceptions in that regard, then we should not become upset or disturbed or alarmed when those perceptions differ from person to person.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 13th, 2013, 7:25 pm #26

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]No, you made that call: "nothing is sinful about that"; the Scripture did not say that.

Educate us, B, concerning the preposition "OF" in those phrases, i.e., from a grammatical standpoint. This is important ... especially coming from a highly educated man like you. You see, B, you've given the impression that the preposition "of" is only there but that it is insignificant in establishing the "arrangement" [your terminology] or relationships among the 3 entities listed in Matt. 28:19.

While the 3 entities [including "the holy spirit"] are mentioned in the passage, why not consider of GREAT SIGNIFICANCE the 70 references that involve the same "holy spirit" [the spirit which is holy] in ITS relation to THE FATHER and ITS relation to THE SON?

You keep making generalizations that are COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

When we involve "parts of speech" in the discussion in order to help clarify nebulous generalizations, we are into the real depths of the discussion. This is where your participation plays an important role.

Of the choices of beliefs, where is your stance, anyway? "You can't have it both ways," as the saying goes.[/color]
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April 13th, 2013, 9:28 pm #27

Do the Scriptures teach about the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? YES.

Do the Scriptures call them the "Trinity" or "triad" explicitly? NO.

Does the absence of the words "Trinity" and "triad" in the Scriptures prove that we must not accept the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as such? NO.

Do the Scriptures teach that we absolutely must embrace a certain arrangement of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? NO.

Do the Scriptures teach that we definitely sin if we do not embrace a certain arrangement of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? NO.

Does a person sin if he believes in three entities/beings/identites of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit? The Scriptures do not explictly say so.

If a person rejects the concept of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three identities and instead believes in "the spirit of God/Father/Son/Lord/Christ, etc., do the Scriptures explictly give that person the right to imply that everyone who has a different perception about this matter is in error? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 13th, 2013, 10:58 pm #28

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]When you make the assertion that opposing doctrines or beliefs does not matter, there is really no point in you participating in the discussion. This board is about discussing doctrinal differences.

You're assuming too much. And you're still making assertions WITHOUT scriptural support.

Educate us on the preposition "OF" as that will clarify nebulous assertions concerning the relationship in the Godhead. The preposition "of" is not insignificant, B.

When you remove that [teaching us more about the preposition "of"] from the discussion, you are essentially drawing this conclusion that:[/color]

"the holy spirit OF the Lord God"

................ = .................

"the holy spirit IS the Lord God"


[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]There is a difference. Don't you see it? If you don't see it, let me explain that:

(a) There are 70 references to the preposition "of" in these expressions in Scripture.

-------------- versus --------------

(b) Substituting "is" for "of" is what the Trinity Creed teaches. [/color]
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 13th, 2013, 11:00 pm #29

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]No, you made that call: "nothing is sinful about that"; the Scripture did not say that.

Educate us, B, concerning the preposition "OF" in those phrases, i.e., from a grammatical standpoint. This is important ... especially coming from a highly educated man like you. You see, B, you've given the impression that the preposition "of" is only there but that it is insignificant in establishing the "arrangement" [your terminology] or relationships among the 3 entities listed in Matt. 28:19.

While the 3 entities [including "the holy spirit"] are mentioned in the passage, why not consider of GREAT SIGNIFICANCE the 70 references that involve the same "holy spirit" [the spirit which is holy] in ITS relation to THE FATHER and ITS relation to THE SON?

You keep making generalizations that are COMMON KNOWLEDGE.

When we involve "parts of speech" in the discussion in order to help clarify nebulous generalizations, we are into the real depths of the discussion. This is where your participation plays an important role.

Of the choices of beliefs, where is your stance, anyway? "You can't have it both ways," as the saying goes.[/color]
3:22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

When god turned the Jews over to the starry host including the Babylonian trinity, there was no redemption.

Last edited by Ken.Sublett on April 13th, 2013, 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 13th, 2013, 11:43 pm #30

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The Spirit OF Jesus Christ the Lord is the Holy Spirit!!!

That truth invalidates the doctrinal theory that the Holy Spirit is a person with a male gender identity.

Furthermore, numerous expressions associated with the "holy spirit" show possession for the following very significant reasons:

(1) Because the word "spirit" precedes the preposition "OF" as in "the spirit of"
(2) Because the word "spirit" follows the pronoun "HIS"


For the sake of simplification, consider the following expressions that identify "possession" or "that which belongs": the mind OF the child ... the big nose OF Durante ... her big mouth ... the unholy spirit OF man, etc. It means, respectively that the mind is not the child; that the mouth is not the person; that the unholy spirit is not the man.

There are innumerable references to the truth that the "holy spirit" is an entity or an attribute WHICH belongs to ______________:[/color]
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord (26 references in O.T.; Luke 4:18; Acts 5:9; 8:39; II Cor. 3:17,18)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF God (14 references in O.T.; 12 references in N.T.)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF our God (I Cor. 6:11)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the living God (II Cor. 3:3)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Christ (Rom. 8:9; I Peter 1:11)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Jesus Christ (Phil. 1:19)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him (Rom. 8:11)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Lord God (Isa. 61:1)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF His Son (Gal. 4:6)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the holy Spirit OF God (Eph. 4:30)
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  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF the Father (Matt. 10:20)

    Plus, WHOSE Spirit [indicating possession] is it?

    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS Spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom. 8:11; I Cor. 2:10; I John 4:13)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. HIS holy Spirit (Isa. 63:10,11; I Thess. 4:8)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit OF Him that raised up Jesus (Rom. 8:11)
    </li>
  • That the Holy Spirit is a.k.a. the Spirit which is OF God (I Cor. 2:12) </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Hopefully, you've paid careful attention to reading and studying [NOT speed-reading] all the passages above.

Whether it is of the Lord ... or of God ... or of the living God ... or of the Father ... or of the Lord Jesus Christ: HIS SPIRIT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT; HIS SPIRIT DOES NOT INVENT, GENERATE OR CREATE ANOTHER HOLY SPIRIT!!![/color]
Jesus mentioned Father, Son and Spirit to REPUDIATE the always pagan triads or families of God. People who boast of not reading have no right to know:

Father, Spirit (mother, Dove) and Son are ALWAYS the Pagan THESIS of polytheism. God presents the ANTITHESIS almost always.

Jesus made it clear as ABC that God purposed to show that there was only ONE Divine Being (there cannot be three Almighties). He did this by endorsing Jesus as having ALL of the power or authority of the ALWAYS-Pagan "Father, Spirit(mother) and Son. God pronounced the man Jesus of Nazareth to be a SON whereas in Judasim where they worshipped the Queen of Heaven and in Babylon to which they were abandoned BECAUSE of their polytheism.

The ONE Almighty is FATHER or creator of all material things and the spirits of mankind: His WORD and WISDOM (Sophia or Spirit according to the Jews) were WITH GOD because they WERE GOD. God's spirit and Word are His "breath" (to fool the foolish materialists) and His ARTICULATED or projected Power.

The ONE Father MADE TO BE both Lord and Christ, Jesus of Nazareth: that REFUTES the eternal blasphemy of the ALWAYS-PAGAN trinities.

QUOTING: God is not a sexual being, either male or female--something that was considered to be true in ancient Near Eastern religion. He even speaks specifically against such a view in

<font color="#0000FF">Numbers 23:19 God is NOT a man, that he should lie; neither the SON of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?


where the text has God saying he is not a man [ish], and in in which he warns against creating a graven image of himself in "the likeness of male and female." But though he is not a male, the "formless" deity (Deut 4:15) has chosen to reveal himself largely in masculine ways

Deuteronomy 4:15 Take ye therefore good heed unto yourselves;
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the LORD spake unto you in Horeb
.....>out of the midst of the fire:
Deuteronomy 4:16 Lest ye corrupt yourselves, and make you a graven image,
.....the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,
Deuteronomy 4:17 The likeness of any beast that is on the earth,
.....the likeness of any winged fowl that flieth in the air,
Deuteronomy 4:18 The likeness of any thing that creepeth on the ground,
.....the likeness of any fish that is in the waters beneath the earth:
Deuteronomy 4:19 And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven,
.....and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars,
.....even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them,
.....and serve them, which the LORD thy God
.....hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven.


When in art a human material form is used to represent the Holy Spirit, that form is usually that of the male human body, without meaning to attribute such physical features to the reality represented. For example, in the rare cases of depiction of the Trinity

The DOVE, for readers of clay tablets was the MOTHER goddess. God used the dove or "carrier pigeon" as the image of the Holy Spirit along with BREATH because that is what carries the MIND of the one God to the MOUTH of the Son as personified WORD.

as three identical persons [entities], the Holy Spirit is represented as male, in line with the depictions of the Father and the Son.

And that violates the direct commands of the ONE LORD among many "gods" or Elohim. You CANNOT ignore the clear message of Jesus and think of father, son and spirit as separate entities without GENERATING an image or IDOL of God.

There are some Christian groups who teach that the Holy Spirit is feminine or has feminine aspects. Most are based on the grammatical gender of the words in the original Bible languages where the Holy Spirit is the subject. In Hebrew the word for spirit (ruach) is feminine. In Aramaic also, the language generally considered to have been spoken by Jesus, the word is feminine. However, in Greek the word (pneuma) is neuter. This is not thought by most linguists to have significance for the sex of the person given that name.</font>

</font>
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