The Promoted Pattern At Concerned Members

Sonny
Sonny

April 20th, 2012, 4:18 am #1

Brother Ken's Emphasized Pattern

Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Singing is unacceptable worship.
The Book of Enoch and Greek Mythology have the pattern and help us understand the pattern.
Paying a preacher is unacceptable evangelism.
Instrumental worship is unacceptable worship equated with whores.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


Brother Cruz's Emphasized Pattern

Anything Madison C of C does different from traditions of men is NOT the pattern.
A false teacher is a change agent and a change agent is anyone who is different from 1950.
Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Praise teams are unacceptable leaders of worship.
Clapping is unacceptable accompaniment of singing.
Only the Church of Christ properly baptizes believers.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


Brother Crump's Emphasized Pattern

Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Only proper English grammar is acceptable on an internet religious forum.
The KJV is the New Testament pattern Jesus and the apostles used.
Only buildings with a Church of Christ name on the building or sign in the yard are potentially true followers of Jesus.
Most buildings with a Church of Christ name on the building or sign in the yard are not true followers of Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


They do not mention confessing sins, praying for others, helping the poor, visiting those in prison, worshiping from the heart, tithing, grace, not judging, spiritual gifts, helping widows over sixty but not under sixty, greeting others with a holy kiss, humility, fasting, the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead, baptism is about dying to self, the proper pattern for communion, or the apostolic pattern for singing in four part harmony with a pitch pipe.

-Sonny
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 20th, 2012, 6:45 am #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

Good to hear from you again.

Your writing style (its contents) has changed from when you initially posted with much interest to "learn" . Now, it is apparent where your alignment is -- with the change agents. Maybe, I understand now why you mentioned at the outset that some in your family and among your relatives are still conservative and "traditional." [I do not like these designations: (1) for those who are loyal to Christ and His church and the New Testament truth and (2) for those with liberal and progressive stances.]

Your lists of doctrinal issues are fine. It's just that in many cases, you're putting words in our mouths. That's being deceptive on your part. But, hopefully, the readers know better as to why you're doing that.

You've covered a lot in one post. We will not be able to discuss everything under one thread. But I'll start out with your last paragraph. Some of these items are topics that we basically agree on: helping the poor, visiting those in prison, humility. But if anyone wishes to discuss different doctrinal matters, then, feel free to do so.

We do mention and discuss matters that you said we "do not mention." So, I have no idea where that came from. We have discussed:

(1) tithing--not applicable to Christians;
(2) spiritual gifts--often confused with "natural gifts"
(3) grace--often abused and misused by "once saved, always saved"
(4) Holy Spirit--how did you come up with the THIRD person?
(5) singing--pitch pipe, not used WHILE singing, is not a factor
(6) ... and others.

OK, I think I have a few minutes to respond to "Brother Cruz's Pattern According to Sonny" separately.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 20th, 2012, 7:38 am #3

Brother Ken's Emphasized Pattern

Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Singing is unacceptable worship.
The Book of Enoch and Greek Mythology have the pattern and help us understand the pattern.
Paying a preacher is unacceptable evangelism.
Instrumental worship is unacceptable worship equated with whores.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


Brother Cruz's Emphasized Pattern

Anything Madison C of C does different from traditions of men is NOT the pattern.
A false teacher is a change agent and a change agent is anyone who is different from 1950.
Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Praise teams are unacceptable leaders of worship.
Clapping is unacceptable accompaniment of singing.
Only the Church of Christ properly baptizes believers.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


Brother Crump's Emphasized Pattern

Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Only proper English grammar is acceptable on an internet religious forum.
The KJV is the New Testament pattern Jesus and the apostles used.
Only buildings with a Church of Christ name on the building or sign in the yard are potentially true followers of Jesus.
Most buildings with a Church of Christ name on the building or sign in the yard are not true followers of Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


They do not mention confessing sins, praying for others, helping the poor, visiting those in prison, worshiping from the heart, tithing, grace, not judging, spiritual gifts, helping widows over sixty but not under sixty, greeting others with a holy kiss, humility, fasting, the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead, baptism is about dying to self, the proper pattern for communion, or the apostolic pattern for singing in four part harmony with a pitch pipe.

-Sonny
"Brother Cruz's Emphasized Pattern" (by Sonny)
<ol>[*]Anything Madison C of C does different from traditions of men is NOT the pattern.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Anything that any congregation teaches and practices that is not taught by Christ and His apostles is not according to the New Testament pattern.[/color]

</li>[*]A false teacher is a change agent and a change agent is anyone who is different from 1950.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: A change agent is one who works internally in the body of Christ with the objective to modify the teachings of Christ and the apostles, restructure the church and transform it into a denomination, create confusion and division. The expression "different from 1950" is of the change agents' origin. [/color]

</li>[*]Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: There's no directive from God to "worship" Him with the mechanical operation of lifeless, inanimate musical objects -- not in the Old Testament; not in the New Testament. Of course, we know that certain of "God's followers" [supposedly] GOT NAKED, DANCED and PLAYED MUSIC BEFORE THE LORD in private [?]. Whew! That was NOT in front of or in the midst of the congregation. BUT THE PAGANS DID THE SAME -- DANCED AND PLAYED MUSIC.[/color]

</li>[*]Praise teams are unacceptable leaders of worship.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Good that you mentioned "leaders" for clarification. The CHOIR leaders are comprised of both men and WOMEN. Women leaders, Sonny? Not to mention performances and the DEATH of congregational singing. [/color]

</li>[*]Clapping is unacceptable accompaniment of singing.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Clapping in itself is fine. Just don't disturb your neighboring congregants. RHYTHMIC JOY of handclapping is not spontaneous joy. Applause or cheerleading belongs in concerts and sport events.[/color]

</li>[*]Only the Church of Christ properly baptizes believers.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: The church does not baptize believers. Those outside of Christ go through the process of conversion according to God's plan. Conversion does not stop at one's faith in God's Son. He must be BURIED with Christ in baptism in order to have sins remitted in the blood of the Lamb, then resurrected with Him to begin newness of life. What is wrong with what the New Testament teaches about conversion?[/color]

</li>[*]The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: The Trinity doctrine was invented by the Roman Catholic Church, and so was "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God." How in the world did they (and you) come up with this numbering system -- third person? Only third????? We've discussed this often and in detail. [/color]
</li>[/list]
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

April 20th, 2012, 8:14 pm #4

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

Good to hear from you again.

Your writing style (its contents) has changed from when you initially posted with much interest to "learn" . Now, it is apparent where your alignment is -- with the change agents. Maybe, I understand now why you mentioned at the outset that some in your family and among your relatives are still conservative and "traditional." [I do not like these designations: (1) for those who are loyal to Christ and His church and the New Testament truth and (2) for those with liberal and progressive stances.]

Your lists of doctrinal issues are fine. It's just that in many cases, you're putting words in our mouths. That's being deceptive on your part. But, hopefully, the readers know better as to why you're doing that.

You've covered a lot in one post. We will not be able to discuss everything under one thread. But I'll start out with your last paragraph. Some of these items are topics that we basically agree on: helping the poor, visiting those in prison, humility. But if anyone wishes to discuss different doctrinal matters, then, feel free to do so.

We do mention and discuss matters that you said we "do not mention." So, I have no idea where that came from. We have discussed:

(1) tithing--not applicable to Christians;
(2) spiritual gifts--often confused with "natural gifts"
(3) grace--often abused and misused by "once saved, always saved"
(4) Holy Spirit--how did you come up with the THIRD person?
(5) singing--pitch pipe, not used WHILE singing, is not a factor
(6) ... and others.

OK, I think I have a few minutes to respond to "Brother Cruz's Pattern According to Sonny" separately.[/color]
<em>It's just that in many cases, you're putting words in our mouths. That's being deceptive on your part.</em>

But it's okay for you to do it? I thought turnabout was fair play. Come on...
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 20th, 2012, 8:57 pm #5

"Brother Cruz's Emphasized Pattern" (by Sonny)
<ol>[*]Anything Madison C of C does different from traditions of men is NOT the pattern.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Anything that any congregation teaches and practices that is not taught by Christ and His apostles is not according to the New Testament pattern.[/color]

</li>[*]A false teacher is a change agent and a change agent is anyone who is different from 1950.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: A change agent is one who works internally in the body of Christ with the objective to modify the teachings of Christ and the apostles, restructure the church and transform it into a denomination, create confusion and division. The expression "different from 1950" is of the change agents' origin. [/color]

</li>[*]Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: There's no directive from God to "worship" Him with the mechanical operation of lifeless, inanimate musical objects -- not in the Old Testament; not in the New Testament. Of course, we know that certain of "God's followers" [supposedly] GOT NAKED, DANCED and PLAYED MUSIC BEFORE THE LORD in private [?]. Whew! That was NOT in front of or in the midst of the congregation. BUT THE PAGANS DID THE SAME -- DANCED AND PLAYED MUSIC.[/color]

</li>[*]Praise teams are unacceptable leaders of worship.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Good that you mentioned "leaders" for clarification. The CHOIR leaders are comprised of both men and WOMEN. Women leaders, Sonny? Not to mention performances and the DEATH of congregational singing. [/color]

</li>[*]Clapping is unacceptable accompaniment of singing.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: Clapping in itself is fine. Just don't disturb your neighboring congregants. RHYTHMIC JOY of handclapping is not spontaneous joy. Applause or cheerleading belongs in concerts and sport events.[/color]

</li>[*]Only the Church of Christ properly baptizes believers.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: The church does not baptize believers. Those outside of Christ go through the process of conversion according to God's plan. Conversion does not stop at one's faith in God's Son. He must be BURIED with Christ in baptism in order to have sins remitted in the blood of the Lamb, then resurrected with Him to begin newness of life. What is wrong with what the New Testament teaches about conversion?[/color]

</li>[*]The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]RESPONSE: The Trinity doctrine was invented by the Roman Catholic Church, and so was "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God." How in the world did they (and you) come up with this numbering system -- third person? Only third????? We've discussed this often and in detail. [/color]
</li>[/list]
Here is Sonny's Godhead. Does that mean in his own image? that may explain people speaking out of 6 sides of their mouths?
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on April 20th, 2012, 9:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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B
B

April 20th, 2012, 9:05 pm #6

Brother Ken's Emphasized Pattern

Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Singing is unacceptable worship.
The Book of Enoch and Greek Mythology have the pattern and help us understand the pattern.
Paying a preacher is unacceptable evangelism.
Instrumental worship is unacceptable worship equated with whores.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


Brother Cruz's Emphasized Pattern

Anything Madison C of C does different from traditions of men is NOT the pattern.
A false teacher is a change agent and a change agent is anyone who is different from 1950.
Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Praise teams are unacceptable leaders of worship.
Clapping is unacceptable accompaniment of singing.
Only the Church of Christ properly baptizes believers.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


Brother Crump's Emphasized Pattern

Instrumental music is unacceptable worship.
Only proper English grammar is acceptable on an internet religious forum.
The KJV is the New Testament pattern Jesus and the apostles used.
Only buildings with a Church of Christ name on the building or sign in the yard are potentially true followers of Jesus.
Most buildings with a Church of Christ name on the building or sign in the yard are not true followers of Jesus.
The Holy Spirit is not the third person in the Godhead.


They do not mention confessing sins, praying for others, helping the poor, visiting those in prison, worshiping from the heart, tithing, grace, not judging, spiritual gifts, helping widows over sixty but not under sixty, greeting others with a holy kiss, humility, fasting, the Holy Spirit is the third person in the Godhead, baptism is about dying to self, the proper pattern for communion, or the apostolic pattern for singing in four part harmony with a pitch pipe.

-Sonny
If Sonny has ever read the lead post in the thread entitled "Christ's Requirements for Salvation" by Dr. Bill Crump, Sonny will learn how to become a Christian and how to remain one.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 20th, 2012, 9:15 pm #7

Tell him that DISCIPLES do not invent dogma!
What is a Disciple?

A. A disciple goes to the school of Christ and makes up his own textbook. OR
B. A disciple of Christ sits down and shuts up in holy reverence and "leaves the teaching to Jesus Christ" as the Bible and common decency demands.

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Anonymous
Anonymous

April 21st, 2012, 3:30 am #8

Problem is, he's right about you Ken.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 21st, 2012, 8:40 pm #9

Here is Sonny's Godhead. Does that mean in his own image? that may explain people speaking out of 6 sides of their mouths?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This is a very simple but effective explanation of the man-made (Catholic and Protestant-propagated) doctrine of the Trinity.

I love this illustration, Ken. A picture is worth more than a thousand words.

Can anyone find scripture that shows that God's followers are to worship His (God's) own holy spirit?

Isn't it conflicting to "worship God" and also to "worship the Spirit of God"? That is, if "the Spirit OF God" = "God"?

If "the spirit OF God" = "God" ... does that really make sense? To explain that as equivalent to stating that "the NOSE of David" = "David" ... I imagine that would confuse even a kindergartener.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 21st, 2012, 9:41 pm #10

<em>It's just that in many cases, you're putting words in our mouths. That's being deceptive on your part.</em>

But it's okay for you to do it? I thought turnabout was fair play. Come on...
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Brian,

Then, why not say it ain't so ... and explain?

The "turnabout" as "fair play" is explained in my responses below. See if you can tell the difference between Sonny's assertions and my statements.[/color]
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