The Progressive-Liberal 'COC' Pattern: King David's Music, Dance, Burnt Offerings

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 17th, 2015, 12:11 am #41

I believe Ken is sitting on some pretty bizarre beliefs that we may never hear from him. He broke the chain on Church singing and condemned all singing as evil. He was schooled to stop at performance singing. I'm fairly certain he is holding back with something about the virgin birth. Ken, I'm all ears if you decide to let it go.
We don't have to write lots of books about "Alma": One begins to be when one conceives: Jesus acknowledged Jesus as His Son after He was baptized:.

Luke 1:31 And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.


The Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah is defined by God speaking to Mary: I hope that people don't call God a liar: Peter said that Jesus made the prophecies more certain:

Luke 1:32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

Luke 1:33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.


Shelly etal make Mary a sexually questionable young girl: equated her to Cherokee Sal but Mary.

Luke 1:34 Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost [Breath] shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the SON OF GOD.


Moses didn't have a father or mother but God breathed life into him:

Gen. 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


I have informed the feminists who claim that EVE was supperior and Adam was to CLEAVE to her like everyone cleves to God: but they say that EARTH is the goddess Adam was supposed to obey.

Your task, if you wish to take it, is to find where God BREATHED the breath or inspiration into Eve.

YOUR TURN:

Find a command, example, remote inference or even a hallucination that God said anything like: "Let the Scribes and Levites call an assemble 3 or four times in a week: let them hire Song Leader and sing that which is NOT written with or without instruments."

An egg can be sparked into life: you cannot find a jot or tittle about group singing to THE JEHOVAH as an act of worship.





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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 17th, 2015, 7:50 am #42

Donnie, it has been reported over the years that you sing at Church. How do you justify your singing?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Just,

Thanks for asking me about my "church singing" career. I know that some folks are just dying to confront me and my stance on singing "at church." (I actually avoid using expressions such as "going to church" or "singing at church," etc. I prefer to use "assembly" or "gathering" as an indication that the saints meet: [a] as disciples of Christ and as learners or students in His school, as well as participants in commemorating the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross.)

In other words, all that (the purpose of the assembly) is opposite of what many folks are now MIS-led to believe that the gathering is "MUSICAL WORSHIP" -- the MAIN focus -- and that the rest of the assembly period is a series of extraneous "worship" activities. So, the man-annointed "Worship Leader" is in control. (For those who have not noticed: "traditional" lasts about an hour; "contemporary worship" lasts about 1 1/2 hours ... and determine why that is.)

Oh, yes, my singing. Because of my strange voice range, I sing bass, although some may say that I sing tenor. And that reminds me of this song: "Mama sang bass; Daddy sang tenor" ... or something like that. I must confess that in the past, I was just waiting for those in front of me to turn around and "praise" my singing performance. [Maybe, they should have sung "praise music" to "praise" me. ]

When the Praise Team was first introduced at Madison some 14 years ago by the "Worship Leader" Keith Lancaster (father of the current "Worship Leader," Anthony) -- which caused a major division both in the eldership and in the membership -- much has changed in me concerning singing "at church."

I detest the entertainment and performance aspects in musical worship. (Thanks to the elders for getting rid of the 2-male and 2-female performers on stage while the "Worship Leader" led the congregants to "God's holy presence.")

I avoid "spiritual" erotic, non-scriptural, repetitive songs, even by the title: If you miss me ... you are the one for me ... Oh, I was made for this: to know your tender kiss ... my feet were made to dance ... for I was made for you ... I felt your warm embrace ... how we need your (Holy Spirit's) touch again ... let your Spirit come and wash me now....

There's one song, the first line of which is: Ha-la-la-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah [I don't think I missed a syllable.]. That sounds like a musical exercise or speaking-in-tongues.

There are quite a few 7-11 musical praise songs; quite a few musical pieces that are too difficult to sing (of course, the Praise Team members have the advantage of rehearsing their musical worship); songs by famous and wealthy "Christian" religious artists; etc.

Just Layman, I'm now very selective when it comes to Scripture-based songs: there are not many contemporary songs that qualify. I now do my singing mostly in private, while I'm driving, or where no one can hear me.

No one here condemns truth-based singing as singing should be "in your heart ... to the Lord." And we need to respect what the Bible says and what history has recorded for our knowledge. There is no example or command for congregational singing in the Bible; that "congregational singing" AS WE KNOW IT TODAY has its own history: certainly not dating back to the 1st century Christian era. In fact, there is no command to sing although Paul and Silas did it on their own volition; and "praise" does not have to be sung. But an individual Christian is certainly entitled to "sing and make melody IN YOUR HEART TO THE LORD." We cannot just clap and sing our way to heaven; otherwise, "Christian" opera singers and the Praise Team performing musicians should be the first ones to go up there.

Musical worship, according to my knowledge of the Bible, was not Christ's and His apostles' main focus ... either in discipling or in edifying.[/color]
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Just Layman
Just Layman

April 17th, 2015, 9:48 am #43



Donnie, I think your core values have changed. You no longer support the traditional COC congregational singing. The term "Change Agent" could be used to describe your actions.

I'm not here to judge you. I would ask that your fellow COC posters council you. Perhaps you have had a little too much of this.

http://www.piney.com/Everett.Ferguson.C ... hurch.html
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Just Layman
Just Layman

April 17th, 2015, 3:15 pm #44

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Just,

Thanks for asking me about my "church singing" career. I know that some folks are just dying to confront me and my stance on singing "at church." (I actually avoid using expressions such as "going to church" or "singing at church," etc. I prefer to use "assembly" or "gathering" as an indication that the saints meet: [a] as disciples of Christ and as learners or students in His school, as well as participants in commemorating the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross.)

In other words, all that (the purpose of the assembly) is opposite of what many folks are now MIS-led to believe that the gathering is "MUSICAL WORSHIP" -- the MAIN focus -- and that the rest of the assembly period is a series of extraneous "worship" activities. So, the man-annointed "Worship Leader" is in control. (For those who have not noticed: "traditional" lasts about an hour; "contemporary worship" lasts about 1 1/2 hours ... and determine why that is.)

Oh, yes, my singing. Because of my strange voice range, I sing bass, although some may say that I sing tenor. And that reminds me of this song: "Mama sang bass; Daddy sang tenor" ... or something like that. I must confess that in the past, I was just waiting for those in front of me to turn around and "praise" my singing performance. [Maybe, they should have sung "praise music" to "praise" me. ]

When the Praise Team was first introduced at Madison some 14 years ago by the "Worship Leader" Keith Lancaster (father of the current "Worship Leader," Anthony) -- which caused a major division both in the eldership and in the membership -- much has changed in me concerning singing "at church."

I detest the entertainment and performance aspects in musical worship. (Thanks to the elders for getting rid of the 2-male and 2-female performers on stage while the "Worship Leader" led the congregants to "God's holy presence.")

I avoid "spiritual" erotic, non-scriptural, repetitive songs, even by the title: If you miss me ... you are the one for me ... Oh, I was made for this: to know your tender kiss ... my feet were made to dance ... for I was made for you ... I felt your warm embrace ... how we need your (Holy Spirit's) touch again ... let your Spirit come and wash me now....

There's one song, the first line of which is: Ha-la-la-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah Ha-la-la-la-la-le-lu-jah [I don't think I missed a syllable.]. That sounds like a musical exercise or speaking-in-tongues.

There are quite a few 7-11 musical praise songs; quite a few musical pieces that are too difficult to sing (of course, the Praise Team members have the advantage of rehearsing their musical worship); songs by famous and wealthy "Christian" religious artists; etc.

Just Layman, I'm now very selective when it comes to Scripture-based songs: there are not many contemporary songs that qualify. I now do my singing mostly in private, while I'm driving, or where no one can hear me.

No one here condemns truth-based singing as singing should be "in your heart ... to the Lord." And we need to respect what the Bible says and what history has recorded for our knowledge. There is no example or command for congregational singing in the Bible; that "congregational singing" AS WE KNOW IT TODAY has its own history: certainly not dating back to the 1st century Christian era. In fact, there is no command to sing although Paul and Silas did it on their own volition; and "praise" does not have to be sung. But an individual Christian is certainly entitled to "sing and make melody IN YOUR HEART TO THE LORD." We cannot just clap and sing our way to heaven; otherwise, "Christian" opera singers and the Praise Team performing musicians should be the first ones to go up there.

Musical worship, according to my knowledge of the Bible, was not Christ's and His apostles' main focus ... either in discipling or in edifying.[/color]

Donnie said "(I actually avoid using expressions such as "going to church" or "singing at church," etc. I prefer to use "assembly" or "gathering" as an indication that the saints meet: [a] as disciples of Christ and as learners or students in His school, as well as participants in commemorating the Lord's sacrifice and death on the cross.)"

**************

Perhaps, Donnie is ready to change the SOF?

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 17th, 2015, 3:52 pm #45


Donnie, I think your core values have changed. You no longer support the traditional COC congregational singing. The term "Change Agent" could be used to describe your actions.

I'm not here to judge you. I would ask that your fellow COC posters council you. Perhaps you have had a little too much of this.

http://www.piney.com/Everett.Ferguson.C ... hurch.html
You no longer support the traditional COC congregational singing.

SO! you confess that congregational singing makes you a TRADITIONALIST?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 17th, 2015, 4:20 pm #46

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]... and Nudity.

There is NOTHING from the New Testament that the change agents operating in the brotherhood to infiltrate, destroy and divide the New Testament church can offer.

What King David did had nothing to do with a congregational assembly. Whatever he did was personal, i.e., including his nudity and dancing, whether or not he considered his "services" worship, worshipful or acceptable to God.

Read and study the following few passages that deal not with "Acts of the Apostles" of the Christian era, but with "Acts of King David" under the Mosaic regime:
[/color]
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And it came to pass as they came, when David was returned from the slaughter of the Philistine, that the women came out of all cities of Israel, singing and dancing, to meet king Saul, with tabrets, with joy, and with instruments of musick.[/color] (I Samuel 18:6)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And David spake to the chief of the Levites to appoint their brethren to be the singers with instruments of musick, psalteries and harps and cymbals, sounding, by lifting up the voice with joy.[/color] (I Chron. 15:16)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times][4] [Ye] That lie upon beds of ivory, and stretch themselves upon their couches, and eat the lambs out of the flock, and the calves out of the midst of the stall;
    [5] That chant to the sound of the viol, and invent to themselves instruments of musick, like David;
    [6] That drink wine in bowls, and anoint themselves with the chief ointments:
    [/color] (Amos 6)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And the servants of Achish said unto him, Is not this David the king of the land? did they not sing one to another of him in dances, saying, Saul hath slain his thousands, and David his ten thousands?[/color] (I Sam. 21:11)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]Is not this David, of whom they sang one to another in dances, saying, Saul slew his thousands, and David his ten thousands?[/color] (I Sam. 29:5)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.[/color] (II Sam. 6:14)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David, Michal Saul's daughter looked through a window, and saw king David leaping and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.[/color] (II Sam. 6:16)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.[/color] (II Sam. 6:17)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]Then David returned to bless his household. And Michal the daughter of Saul came out to meet David, and said, How glorious was the king of Israel to day, who uncovered himself to day in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants, as one of the vain fellows shamelessly uncovereth himself![/color] (II Sam. 6:20)

    </li>
  • [color=#FF0000" size="3" face="times]And it came to pass, as the ark of the covenant of the LORD came to the city of David, that Michal the daughter of Saul looking out at a window saw king David dancing and playing: and she despised him in her heart.[/color] (I Chron. 15:29)</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Facts about David of the old Mosaic regime:

-- An inventor of musical instruments,
-- A musical lover,
-- His practices were personal;
-- His practices had nothing to do with the assembly of saints;
-- His dealings with the Levites...
-- The ark of the covenant,
-- His dancing prowess/skills--"danced before the Lord";
-- His nudity "in the eyes of the handmaids of his servants"
-- His offer of burnt offerings and peace offerings...

The above is self-explanatory.

Beware!!! The progressive and liberal change agents will pick and choose which of David's practices and skills are applicable to New Testament Christianity!!!

Prepare ye! It may be "dancing before the Lord" next, if not already. But, of course, NOT "burnt offerings."[/color]
I do certify that the "praise singing" as opposed to reverent group singing without a hired WORSHIP leader (called Parasites in the Greek) was a Laded Burden both physically (destroys hearing) and emotionally which Jesus outlawed as "creating spiritual anxiety through religious rituals." Witches or Sorcerers do not feed you boiled frog eyes: they boil you the "frogs": The Spirits of FROGS are defined as QUACKS.

Quintus Horatius Flaccus,

Bad men, when they avoid certain vices, fall into their opposite extremes.

The tribes of female flute-players,1 quacks, vagrants, mimics, blackguards;2 all this set is sorrowful and dejected on account of the death of the singer Tigellius; for he was liberal [toward them]. On the other hand, this man, dreading to be called a spendthrift, will not give a poor friend [5] wherewithal to keep off cold and pinching hunger.


1 Ambubaiarum , "Women who played on the flute." It is derived from a Syrian word; for the people of that country usually excelled in this instrument. Pharmacopolae is a general name for all who deal in spices, essence, and perfumes.

circumfora-neus adj. [circum + forum] , around the forum, about the market - place: aes, debts (at the bankers). -- Frequenting markets: pharmacopola.


Pharmacopola, pharmakopôlês, [snake oil?] I. a vender of medicines, [musicians in Rev 18 are Pharmakea or sorcers]
2 Mendici, mimae, balatrones . The priests of Isis [mount Sinai] and Cybele were beggars by profession, and under the vail of religion were often guilty of the most criminal excesses. Mimae were players of the most debauched and dissolute kind; and balatrones, in general, signifies all scoundrels, buffoons, and parasites from sacrificial musicians.


John in Revelation 18 calls them SORCERERS and the MUSIC according to the Spirit OF Christ in Isaiah 30 is of God driving them into HELL or the LAKE OF FIRE.

You don't know a single "seller of learning at retail" who understands the meaning of a LADED BURDEN. Jesus EXCLUDES the wise or sophists (rhetoric, singing, playing) who are the BURDEN LADERS. Anything or anyone who devotes themselves to decorate, enhance or aid God and the Word are marked as ANATHEMA: they cannot be redeemed and must be burned."


Last edited by Ken.Sublett on April 17th, 2015, 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 17th, 2015, 5:51 pm #47

Jesus cast out the flute girls or minstrels "more or less violently like dung" prophesied in Isaiah 30. Methuo or drunk on wine in Ephesians 5 is uses as "getting fluted down with wine." Also means drunk on ignorance.

Plat. Prot. 347c But if he does not mind, let us talk no more of poems and verses, but consider the points on which I questioned you at first, Protagoras, and on which I should be glad to reach, with your help, a conclusion. For it seems to me that arguing about poetry is comparable to the wine-parties of common market-folk. These people, owing to their inability to carry on a familiar conversation over their wine by means of their own voices and discussions—

[347d] such is their lack of education—put a premium on flute-girls by hiring the extraneous voice of the flute at a high price, and carry on their intercourse by means of its utterance.
But where the party consists of thorough gentlemen who have had a proper education, you will see neither flute-girls nor dancing-girls nor harp-girls, but only the company contenting themselves with their own conversation, and none of these fooleries and frolics—each speaking and listening decently in his turn,


The official who regulated the flute-girls also regulated the dung heap.

Aristot. Const. Ath. 50 These then are the matters administered by the Council. Also ten men are elected by lot as Restorers of Temples, who draw 30 minae1 from the Receivers and repair the temples that most require it; and ten City Controllers, [2] five of whom hold office in Peiraeus and five in the city; it is they who supervise the flute-girls and harp-girls and lyre-girls to prevent their receiving fees of more than two drachmas,2 and if several persons want to take the same girl these officials cast lots between them and hire her out to the winner.

And they keep watch to prevent any scavenger from depositing ordure within a mile and a quarter of the wall; and they prevent the construction of buildings encroaching on and balconies overhanging the roads, of overhead conduits with an overflow into the road, and of windows opening outward on to the road; and they remove for burial the bodies of persons who die on the roads, having public slaves for this service.


Mercury or Kairos as the pagan LOGOS was a psyhchopomp: a conductor of dead souls to hades. Christ affirms in Isaiah 30

[347e] even though they may drink a great deal of wine. And so a gathering like this of ours, when it includes such men as most of us claim to be, requires no extraneous voices, not even of the poets, whom one cannot question on the sense of what they say; when they are adduced in discussion we are generally told by some that the poet thought so and so, and by others, something different, and they go on arguing about a matter which they are powerless to determine. No, this sort of meeting is avoided by men of culture,

That is what PAUL commanded unless you are UNWISE:

Eph. 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will [decree] of the Lord is.

b878. aphron, af´-rone; from 1 (as a negative particle) and 5424; properly, mindless, i.e. stupid, (by implication) ignorant, (specially) egotistic, (practically) rash, or (morally) unbelieving: — fool(-ish), unwise.

Eph. 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit [the Word John 6:63);
Eph. 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs,


Put out the extraneous, for hire flute-girls or harp-boys BY:

singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;

No, this sort of meeting is avoided by men of culture,


1Cor. 11:2 Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
1Cor. 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.


Your assemblies DO MORE HARM THAN GOOD.

School of Christ does not preach or sing: Paul dialogued until midnight. Donnie is pretty good at translating the do, do, do. dahs!
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on April 17th, 2015, 6:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 17th, 2015, 9:10 pm #48

We always wonder WWJD or what would I do if caught in one of those mortal battles between the LITTLE FLOCK and ALIENS or principalities and powers in HIGH places.

Eph. 6:12 For we wrestle [pluck darts, vibrate musical strings] NOT against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Believe in STAR WARS and those who would force you to deny the Scriptures KNOW and are PURPOSE DRIVEN because it is not possible to be ignorant of the UNIVERSAL connection between religious music and musicians as religious prostitution: Paul called it corrupting the WORD or selling your learning at retail.

2Cor. 11:9 And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
2Cor. 11:10 As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
2Cor. 11:11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
2Cor. 11:12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
2Cor. 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
2Cor. 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2Cor. 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.


Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites (speakers, singers or instrument players) because they SPOKE ON THEIR OWN so that they could fleece the widows: He said that those who spoke ON THEIR OWN were SONS OF THE DEVIL.

Like all of the scams well documented of Madoffs and clergy: FOLLOW THE MONEY.

By Biblical definition a Preacher of the Logos will never, can never get rich and famous. Jesus promised that those who SPEAK the Word as He spoke only what the Father breathed into Him "will be hated and hurt." The rhetoricians, singers and instrument players FROM WHOM God HIDES understand that the most powerful Devil-induced into the Garden way to MUTE the honest preacher is to overpower all of the congregations with Programs and Productions to steal the sheep.





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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 18th, 2015, 3:53 am #49


Donnie, I think your core values have changed. You no longer support the traditional COC congregational singing. The term "Change Agent" could be used to describe your actions.

I'm not here to judge you. I would ask that your fellow COC posters council you. Perhaps you have had a little too much of this.

http://www.piney.com/Everett.Ferguson.C ... hurch.html
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Just,

As I said, no one here condemns truth-based singing -- even congregationally. Key word is "truth-based." I would qualify truth-based congregational singing as that which is devoid of performance or entertainment or instrumental music.

Certainly not when the Praise Team is involved, each one having his/her own handheld microphone ... and performing music before the congregation. Wouldn't it be chaotic if every one in a 3,000-member congregation had a handheld microphone performing either to God OR to each other? No, not that type of congregational singing.

As I said, I'm very selective when it comes to Scripture-based songs. And that's when I participate in congregational singing. And if that's infrequent by today's norm, I do not worry. (Of course, I would not sing with the congregation: "to know your tender kiss ... I felt your warm embrace" even if the song mentions the name of Jesus. I would not sing: "I worship you, Holy Spirit," either.)

I'm not sure what you meant by "the traditional COC congregational singing." Would you consider the Praise Team-dominated musical performances "traditional COC" just because it is a cappella?

While scripture-based congregational singing is not a right-or-wrong judgment, there's truth in saying that there's no example or command for congregational singing in the Bible. When the disciples had said a hymn prior to going to the mount of Olives, there's no indication that there was congregational singing [oh, and that was prior to the establishment of the NT church]. Paul and Silas sang [maybe a duet?] while "in prison."

It is a simple truth that there's no command or example of congregational singing in the Bible. If there were, I certainly would like to know about it.

I have added that piece of information to my memory bank. That way I won't endlessly search for it anymore.[/color]

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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

April 18th, 2015, 4:01 am #50

You no longer support the traditional COC congregational singing.

SO! you confess that congregational singing makes you a TRADITIONALIST?
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]I'm just wondering if Just meant this: that when the Praise Team sings for the congregation, it is congregational singing so long as it is "a cappella" ('non-instrumental" by today's definition).[/color]
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