Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 12th, 2015, 9:54 pm #21

I rarely take a census to determine what the Scriptures and recorded history means.

I might change my mind if you could find a passage which says:

"Sing that which is written for our enjoyment."

Or "everyone sing to everyone else with Twila Paris:
Singing and singing with harmony out loud."

That should be EASY.

I hope you celebrated Orthodox Easter today: did you know that blood has been shed over which day to engage in SUN worship?


Quote
Like
Share

Bill
Bill

April 12th, 2015, 10:42 pm #22

Ken, clearly the COC disagrees with you on singing. Do you know of a local Church of Christ that does not sing?
I don't know of any speak-only churches of Christ. Ken could become famous by starting the first church of Christ that prohibited any kind of singing.
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 12th, 2015, 11:51 pm #23

I would suggest that you look at all of the churches or synagogues in the Bible. That would include Paul and Timothy as they held assemblies. That would be a nice place for finding A Church of Christ engaging in any kind of histrionics.

The singing in church history was NOT a public "worship service" but the daily devotions of the monks and monkees. No church prior to the Reformation engaged in congregational singing: they understood the command to speak that which was written for our learning had no meter and you could not sing tunefully if your life depended on it: it was probably not possible. After Calvin only the PSALMS were set to a simple melody and sung in unison. Psalmody-churches still exist and would probably be the background of the Campbells.

Hastings. Encyclopedia.Religion.Ethics.html
There was also an early vigil from cockcrow to dawn kept by 'all monks and virgins,' and by some lay-folk also. Of course the devotions at the central holy place of Christendom were more generally attended than elsewhere and more elaborate in form, including already four daily services at least. But the account gives us clear insight into the way in which worship became more specialized and developed. And by a good deal of evidence from the last quarter of the century we can ' fix the period A.D. 350-375 as that of the introduction of daily public evening and morning prayers into the Eastern Church, followed a few years later by that of Milan.'1

As regards forms of devotion dating from the 4th cent., neither the morning hymn (Gloria in exceltis) nor the evening one,1 tor instance, seems then to belong to public service. The former appears in varied contexts (e.g., after the Biblical Canticles or 'Odes' in the Codex Alex.); and in the Eastern Church it is part of the Daily Office (Lands), while in the Western it is in the Mass— whither most prized forms tended to gravitate. Once, however, both perhaps were part of the worship of an ascetic community. The evening

hymn, like another vesper hymn, ' Hail, gladdening light', referred to by St. Basil1 as already ancient, may originally have been a thanksgiving 'at the lighting of the lamps' either in the home or at an Agape,' passing later into use among ascetics, like the table-prayers of the Didache into de Virg. xii f. In this last the Gloria is part of the virgin's praise ' towards dawn.'* Closely connected in feeling and ideas with the Gloria, and perhaps with its fellow vesper hymn (Te deeet laiu), is the best known Latin hymn, the Te Deum, now traced to Nicetas of Remesiana, who as living on the road between the East and West would naturally feel the influence of Greek models. Nicetas in his works ' On Vigils' and ' On the good of Psalmody' illustrates further the similarity of ideals of private and corporate devotional hours in East and West c. A.d. 400 ;4 and he was one of the pioneers of the newer feeling which allowed hymns other than those in Scripture, the Psalter above all, to form part of corporate Christian worship, though the prejudice against this died hard.' The authority of St. Ambrose, who himself wrote hymns for public worship, had no doubt great influence. The musical difficulty to their more general use was a real one. It was in monastic circles, then, that hymns proper took real root, and from their daily offices passed in the later Middle Ages into the Breviary of the ordinary clergy.


It is a fact that imposing singing as an ACT in the fourth century split the east church from the west: the easters held easter today and blood was spilt over the date of SUN worship. This historical record proves that SINGING as an act did not exist: even then it was more chanting a single note at a time: that mark of sanity.

If you lived before the Jubilee and PRAISE SINGING you probably couldn't find a church of Christ involved attempts to AROUSE the emotions always identified as sexual and music-drug induced.

If I intended to be fed and housed I would be forced to GO and SOW and not start "churches" as in institutions of lower learning.

Quote
Like
Share

Bill
Bill

April 13th, 2015, 12:26 am #24

Forgive me if I wasn't clear enough. I don't know of any speak-only churches of Christ EXTANT TODAY. Therefore, Ken would be famous if he started the first church of Christ IN THE 21ST CENTURY that prohibited the singing of hymns.
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 13th, 2015, 1:50 am #25

I am concerned with Christ: He ordained HIS School of the Word in the FIRST CENTURY. I personally do not know what all churches of Christ do.

I seem to be the only one who has discovered that SPEAK is the opposite of SING or people just don't want to give up their career path.

The Church of Christ (the Rock) was ordained in the wilderness after the nation was split because of musical idolatry at Mount Sinai on the Rest day. The command excluded "vocal or instrumental rejoicing or rhetoric."

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity [WORSHIP WARS] In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.

Congregational singing in the liturgy was re-established only during the Reformation, by the Lutheran Church in Germany.

The early chorale (q.v.), or German hymn melody,
was unharmonized and sung unaccompanied,
although harmonized versions,
used by varying combinations of choir, organ, and congregation,
appeared later.

Swiss, and later, French, English, and Scottish Calvinism promoted the singing of metrical translations of the psalter (see psalmody), austerely set for unaccompanied unison singing. English and Scottish Protestantism admitted only the singing of psalms. English metrical psalms were set to tunes adapted from the French and Genevan psalters. These were fairly complex melodies written on French metres. The English psalter used only a few metres, and the custom of singing each psalm to its “proper” tune was soon replaced by the use of a few common tunes. The common metre 8, 6, 8, 6 (the numbers give the number of syllables in each line), a form of English ballad metre, remains the archetypal English hymn metre.


You can do what you are gonna do but you cannot focus on MUSIC and be a New Testament Christian or Church.

I know that once you have been sorcerized with music it is hard to catch on but:

The command is to SPEAK that which is written for our learning. Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs are in the BOOK OF PSALMS.
Nothing written for our learning is in lyric poetry.
Therefore, neither then nor now can you be a follower of Christ and sing YOUR OWN STUFF and set it to MELODY.
Quote
Like
Share

Just Layman
Just Layman

April 13th, 2015, 4:09 pm #26


Thanks Ken! I now have a better understanding on what you are about. No hard feelings here. Wishing you the best!
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 13th, 2015, 6:01 pm #27

Ken gets no opinion: I have posted the absolute Biblical and historical proof that there is no musical connection in Scripture and early church history: even then there was nothing similar to modern "four voices, singing four different sets of words, at four different times to four different tunes." It is not a question of right or wrong but what is the Biblical and historical method. When the camel gets it's foot into the tent you wind up with the men getting disfranchised as song leaders when the Senior Pastor hires a "Musical Worship Minister." This and not the conservative Bible-based teaching is what has caused so many people to flee from churches of Christ as Catholics flee from the MOTHER church.

I assume that "where you come from" dismisses my opinions which are universally accepted by the historical believer: the Disciples when imposing instruments made no Biblical or Historical defense for sowing massive discord. Daniel Sommer the whipping boy of the instrumentalists because he refused to let the New Brick Building be confiscated as soon as it was paid for notes:

Those disciples of Christ that began about sixty, years ago to advocate the use of instrumental music in worship professed to regard its use as expedient, or proper under the circumstances. In course of time their plea, of expediency was exposed, for the evidence was offered that anything had to be lawful, or permitted by law, before it could be expedient. See 1 Corinthians 6:12. Besides, evidence was offered that a divisive something, as instrumental music had proved to be, could not be expedient because it was contrary to the divine teaching concerning the unity or oneness of believers in Christ


1Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

1Corinthians 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.


Then one George P. Slade, about the year 1876, made an effort to find divine authority for such music in worship. A few years ago one J. B Briney made another effort to furnish authority for such music.


http://www.piney.com/Otey.Briney.Debate ... Music.html

About two years ago one O. E. Payne made another effort in the same direction, and the reader's attention is. now invited to my exposure of Payne's effort, as I wrote that exposure in three chapters for the Apostolic Review

http://www.piney.com/O.E.Payne.North.Am ... ntion.html

So, is it true or false that "God commanded instrumental praise AS worship today?" Even when sowing of discord is taken into account.

Does it make any difference what the Bible and recorded history defines music as telling God "we will not listen to YOUR Word"?

Do you see any significance in attacking those who quote Scripture, recorded history and the fatal results of sowing discord?

Do you plan to continue to teach that David's urge to worship in the firmament is a pattern for the modern praise leader?



Quote
Like
Share

Just Layman
Just Layman

April 14th, 2015, 6:41 pm #28



I think as I grow older the psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs speak to me much more. Anyone else experience this?
Quote
Share

Bill
Bill

April 14th, 2015, 10:09 pm #29

They speak to you, but do you also speak them back, or sing them, or both?
Quote
Share

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

April 14th, 2015, 10:14 pm #30


I think as I grow older the psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs speak to me much more. Anyone else experience this?
They are supposed to speak to you: they were Teaching Psalms. The view is that the book of Psalms is a poetic (never metrical) version to cover the 5 periods of the prose record. The Direct command is to use:

Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs: all in the BOOK of Pslms.
Or by direct command "that which is written for our learning."

Maybe there is ONE person out there who has NOT said GOD HATH NOT SAID what to teach??

All of those who use psalms to justify instruments never agree that psalms are to teach and admonish. They are the grandest literature ever written and probably include some of the best material beyond the Hebrew writers. The Ugaritic influence at google.

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=ugaritic+psalms

The Bible records evidence from many nations and they are given for out education and not to supply dogma to feed theologians and "worship centers" quite similar to pagan "worship centers."

Melody: Zamar or Melos means to "dismember the text or cut it into pieces. It is possible to dismember (make melody) of all of the Bible text and sing it with one or two notes. IF there was ANYONE in the Restoration movement who obeyed the DIRECT COMMAND everyone could learn or memorize many Psalms and "speak to themselves" all week. At about 85 1/2 I can certify that I cannot sing a single verse of Fanny Crosby.

Psa. 119:1 ALEPH.

| Bless ed' are the | un de fil' ed | in the way,
| who walk' in the law" | of the LORD.

If you say that Palms demand instruments and NEVER sing a single psalm out of the BOOK of Psalms then you understand why the ECUMENICALS who use music to attract the butterflies are unable to speak the Word, Logos or REGULATIVE PRINCIPLE.


Quote
Like
Share