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Dave
Dave

January 2nd, 2017, 1:00 am #61

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

1. John 1:1 does not teach that "one man, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:15) "had been with God as God from the foundation of the world" -- as you assume. The mediator between God and men is "the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim. 2:5).

2. Paul, the blind man and Jesus all used the same expression in NT Greek: "ego eimi" ["I am"] (Acts 26:28,29; John 9:8,9; John 8:58). The "I am" did not make Paul or the blind man or Jesus into God. Looks like you're making an assumption with the "ego eimi" phrase.

3. Still CONTEXT, Bill. Who "proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:41-42, KJV)? Was it God or was it the Messiah? That's what the whole chapter is all about. Abraham knew about the prophesied Messiah. Jesus answered it correctly: "I am" [that Messiah of God].[/color]
Donnie said "2. Paul, the blind man and Jesus all used the same expression in NT Greek: "ego eimi" ["I am"] (Acts 26:28,29; John 9:8,9; John 8:58). The "I am" did not make Paul or the blind man or Jesus into God. Looks like you're making an assumption with the "ego eimi" phrase.

Donnie, YOU KNOW that is not the same phrase, even it is using the same NT Greek. Paul DOES NOT make the claim that he is the "I AM." Furthermore, you know, by looking at the verse in Acts 26, John 9 are totally different than the one in John 8 where Jesus claims to be the "I AM" and which God claimed also in Exodus.

Donnie, this is how I know that you know that you are teaching falsely...
The phrase in John 9 only is the blind man claiming that he is the same man that used to be blind. He never, and YOU KNOW THIS, made a claim for DIETY. The blind man merely said "...I am he" (the one who used to be blind). The same for Paul in Acts 26. Paul is NOT claiming to be an equal with God as Jesus is doing in John 8
I would call you an outright liar Donnie, but that is too meek of a term.
You are DELIBERATELY DENYING God's Word.

In John 1 it says that all things were made through Him (Logos, Jesus-to-Be), so there is no ASSUMPTION by John of Jesus being with God in the beginning.
John 1
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life...

NO ASSUMPTION....it is STATED. IT IS THE WORD OF GOD.
So call on your Greek text but it YOU KNOW BETTER, AND SO DOES KEN.
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Dave
Dave

January 2nd, 2017, 1:07 am #62

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

1. John 1:1 does not teach that "one man, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:15) "had been with God as God from the foundation of the world" -- as you assume. The mediator between God and men is "the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim. 2:5).

2. Paul, the blind man and Jesus all used the same expression in NT Greek: "ego eimi" ["I am"] (Acts 26:28,29; John 9:8,9; John 8:58). The "I am" did not make Paul or the blind man or Jesus into God. Looks like you're making an assumption with the "ego eimi" phrase.

3. Still CONTEXT, Bill. Who "proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:41-42, KJV)? Was it God or was it the Messiah? That's what the whole chapter is all about. Abraham knew about the prophesied Messiah. Jesus answered it correctly: "I am" [that Messiah of God].[/color]
Donnie said "3. John 8:58 is not about Jesus saying: "I am God"; rather that "I am" [the Messiah that God sent]. That is the crux of the entire chapter of John 8.

John 8 DOES say that Jesus Himself is claiming to be the Messiah that God sent....but MUCH MUCH MORE.

John 8
58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jesus is ALSO not merely making the claim, but SAYING that He was in existence even before our father Abraham. John states in John 1 the same claim that all things were made THROUGH HIM. Jesus is making the same claim that His Father, God made in Exodus.


I AM! I AM!I AM! I AM!I AM! I AM!I AM! I AM!

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Bill
Bill

January 2nd, 2017, 1:32 am #63

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

1. John 1:1 does not teach that "one man, Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:15) "had been with God as God from the foundation of the world" -- as you assume. The mediator between God and men is "the man Christ Jesus" (I Tim. 2:5).

2. Paul, the blind man and Jesus all used the same expression in NT Greek: "ego eimi" ["I am"] (Acts 26:28,29; John 9:8,9; John 8:58). The "I am" did not make Paul or the blind man or Jesus into God. Looks like you're making an assumption with the "ego eimi" phrase.

3. Still CONTEXT, Bill. Who "proceeded forth and came from God" (John 8:41-42, KJV)? Was it God or was it the Messiah? That's what the whole chapter is all about. Abraham knew about the prophesied Messiah. Jesus answered it correctly: "I am" [that Messiah of God].[/color]
So it's once again back to the same old schoolyard argument:

Jesus is God.
No He ain't.
Yes He is.
No He ain't.
Is
Ain't
Is
Ain't
Yadda yadda yadda...
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 2nd, 2017, 2:32 am #64

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Bill,

Thanks for participating in "the same old schoolyard argument." And ending it with: "Yadda yadda yadda... "

Have a good evening. Happy New Year!!![/color]
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Bill
Bill

January 2nd, 2017, 2:56 am #65

Happy New year to you, too.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 2nd, 2017, 5:34 am #66

God gave Jesus the Glory of being King in His Kingdom. God NEVER gave up any of His own power by bestowing the title of GOD to Jesus, as God did in Hebrews 1
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.

He also never lowered the Oneness with Jesus with bestowing titles on Him such as: Son of God and Son of Man.

The two claims of I AM in John, by Jesus, and in Exodus, by God, CANNOT be refuted. All others, as mentioned by Donnie, are not claims of being the "I AM" but used in a regular grammatical composition but not espousing the title of GOD.

When anyone denies that GOD SAID that Jesus is God, as GOD HIMSELF calls Jesus (Hebrews 1: 8-9), then they are denying the Righteousness and High Place of our Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Let it be understood too, in verse 8 of Hebrews 1 the author there speaks and states that both God is God and Jesus is God when he says "...therefore God, even thy God,...."

That is why Jesus ALWAYS did the will of God while He was on earth. God was with and IN HIM.
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Dave,

Hebrews 1:8 must be read in CONTEXT of the entire chapter. Acknowledge, first, that there are two primary subjects in this chapter:

1. God the Father spoke in time past unto the fathers by the prophets (v. 1).
2. The Son of God by whom God the Father has spoken in these last days (v. 2).
3. God the Father said: "Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool (v.13).
4. The Son of God is sitting down on the right hand of God the Father (v. 3).
5. God the Father said: "Thou are my Son; I have begotten thee" (v. 5).
6. God the Father said: "I will be to him a Father; he shall be to me a Son" (v.5).
7. Make no mistake: God the Father is NOT the Son of God; vice versa.
8. God the Father is the only one true God (declared in several passages in the Bible).

[8] But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
[9] Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God[/color], hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.


You are taking verse 8 out of context. You are also making the Scripture conform to your predisposed belief in the Trinity, rather than letting the Scripture prove that such a doctrine is man-concocted:

1. The exlamation "O" in "O God" is not in the original NT Greek text. Trinitarian translators included it for the reason of being able to address "the Son of God" as "O God." Otherwise, without regard for English grammar, it would simply say: "Thy throne, god, is for ever and ever."

2. The English language makes a clear distinction between "God" and "god"' but...

3. The biblical languages cannot make the distinction between "GOD" and "god." The word may refer to God the Father or to people with God's authority on earth and important people such as kings and rulers.

4. We have already listed references above that clearly indicate that Christ is seen to be lesser than God the Father.

5. Those references match another passage when Jesus said, "I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I" (John 14:28).

6. The context must determine whether Christ is being referred to as the Supreme Being or just a man with great authority. We read that Christ, called “God,” himself has a “God.” The very next verse, Hebrews 1:9, says, “therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.” Thus, Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God. Furthermore, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him. This makes it abundantly clear that Christ is rather a man with great authority under another God.

7. It is true that Christ has a God. "Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ..." (II Cor. 1:3).

8. It is true that Christ has a God. "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory..." (Eph. 1:17).

9. The entire chapter is about the kingdom of Christ, His throne, of which he is the ruler or king (god). Moreover, God the Father is essentially stating to Christ: <font size="5">"I am God -- thy [your] God"
; see verse 9.</font>
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 2nd, 2017, 6:02 am #67

Gen. 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
Jesus did not exist before Eve???

John 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing:
it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:

John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him:
and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you:
but I know him, and keep his saying.


Jesus didn't exist as the SEED of Abraham before Abraham rejoiced to see the fulfillment.

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

eidon 4.to see mentally, idesthai en phresin "to see in his mind's eye,

Luke 6:23 Rejoice ye in that day, and leap for joy: for, behold, your reward is great in heaven: for in the like manner did their fathers unto the prophets.
Matt. 13:17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
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January 2nd, 2017, 6:09 am #68

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Dave
Dave

January 2nd, 2017, 6:24 pm #69

Happy New year to you, too.
Donnie you underlined and enlarged the font for the Scripture in Hebrews 1

"...therefore God, even thy God..."

The author is not calling Jesus merely Jesus and not "a god"......he is calling Him God.

In verse 8 Hebrews 1 you said that if you took out the "O" in "O God", then it would only read, and I am quoting you; "Thy throne, god, is for ever and ever."

WRONG!

If you took out the "O" in "O God" then it would BE "Thy throne, God, is for ever and ever." The author did not/would not lower the Deity of Jesus by merely equating Him as another god. You are the one who wants to lower the Greatness of Jesus by making him just another god. It cannot be done! Why do you continue to want Jesus to be "another" god? There is only ONE God. That is God and Jesus. I know I know, Donnie. You believe I sound confusing. One God, both God Himself and Jesus. Jesus WAS/IS has ALWAYS BEEN a part of God. That is why God made Adam and Eve to have children in likeness of Him giving us Jesus. Jesus is the ONLY Begotten Son, being FROM and OF God. We have children, they are not us but yet they are OF US. Jesus is no different, yet even greater than us because He is OF GOD. None of us can claim anything as special as the bond between God and Jesus.

Oh, by the way, this author in verse 8 is quoting none other than THE AUTHOR OF ALL....GOD. God calls Jesus God. HE WOULD NOT downgrade His Only Begotten Son to just another god. YES, John, the author in verse 9 also states that God is the God of Jesus (God). You can deny it Donnie, but it is what it is.
The King, God, has also bestowed upon His Son Jesus the title of GOD. God can do this if He so desires. Donnie, you need to remember that God can do ANYTHING HE DESIRES and because of His Unending and Intense love for Jesus, JESUS IS GOD.








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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

January 2nd, 2017, 8:01 pm #70

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times][Just briefly] Dave,

(1) The exclamation "O" is not in the original NT Greek text. You're capitalizing "God" based on the English grammatical structure. In biblical languages, the word for "god" can mean "ruler" or "king." The context in Hebrews 1 is unequivocally speaking of Christ's kingdom.

Remember God the Father telling His Son "Thy throne...."?????

Remember His Son "being made so much better than the angels" (v. 4)?????

Remember God to His Son: "...anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows" (v. 9)????? "Above thy fellows" justifies Jesus as being "King of kings."

Verse 8 has nothing to do with God the Father making Jesus as a co-God. Rather, he was addressing Jesus in terms of his being the "god" or "ruler" or "king" of his kingdom.

(2) You thought you were using verse 9 to prove that Jesus is the co-God. But you are obviously misreading it. <font>"... therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.[/color]

(2.a) "God" in the passage refers to God the Father, not Jesus.
(2.b) "Thy God" in the passage refers to the Father as Jesus' God.
(2.c) "Hath anointed thee" shows that God anointed Jesus.
(2.d) "Hath anointed thee" shows that Jesus (as God, you say) did not anoint Jesus.
(2.e) "Above thy fellows" applies to Jesus being above other kings and rulers.
(2.f) No, it doesn't say that Jesus-God anointed "thee" (Jesus).
</font>
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