The Future of the Progressive Churches of Christ

Dave
Dave

November 15th, 2010, 9:07 pm #21

It sounds to me as if those who embrace a "non-traditional", progressive Church of Christ are those who in effect advocate going away from the "traditions" of the New Testament. To follow the New Testament as written is a 2,000-year-old "tradition" in the mainstream Church of Christ. By "tradition," I don't mean two songs, a prayer, another song, the Lord's Supper, another song, the sermon, invitation hymn, acknowledgment of responses, collection, announcements, closing prayer--in that order (or something like it). Today, being "progressive" is NOT the same as being 100% committed to following the New Testament. Being "progressive" means, "Let's CHANGE things around, so we won't appear to be old stuffy traditionalists." Never mind changing the order of worship or the time of worship. That's not what the "progresive" change agents have in mind. To CHANGE (be progressive) means to reconsider/rewrite what the New Testament says so that it will be acceptable to 21st-century culture. And speaking of "traditions":

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:15 KJV).

The "progressives" want to downplay those traditions.
john Gill's Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:15
And hold the traditions which ye have been taught:
meaning the truths of the Gospel, which may be called traditions, because they are delivered from one to another; the Gospel was first delivered by God the Father to Jesus Christ, as Mediator, and by him to his apostles, and by them to the churches of Christ;

Matthew Henry's Commentary on the same
The Thessalonians are exhorted to steadfastness in their Christian profession, to hold fast the traditions which they had been taught, or the doctrine of the gospel, which had been delivered by the apostle, by word or epistle. As yet the canon of scripture was not complete, and therefore some things were delivered by the apostles in their preaching, under the guidance of the infallible Spirit, which Christians were bound to observe as coming from God;

The People's New Testament
Hold the traditions. Instructions

NOW.....William is trying to tell us that the tradition of a capella, four part harmony is Biblical doctrine??? Doesn't surprise me that he would say thus.....it is just not true.

These man made traditions are not unScriptural, HOWEVER they are still of MEN. As long as these traditions help us TO SING, then it is good. Just as instrumental music AID in singing....they can also be good. The problem is, and where William Crump would have you believe, is that a capella is right where instrumental music is wrong. For a man to say that would be false. That is not grounded in the Scripture, and THIS is where a tradition can be unholy. How about those churches who believe that a capella without harmony is the tradition that is faithful to older times? They want to hold their tradition to be true where a capella is false.
Yes indeed, you DO see what I am talking about.
The worst part of all of this is where a man will abuse Scripture, as William Crump did with 2 Thessalonians 2:15 did to uphold his tradtion......NOT Biblical Doctrine.



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Fred Whaley
Fred Whaley

November 15th, 2010, 10:27 pm #22

I believe Donnie wrote: "Please ... no more of that other stuff than seriously discussing important issues." Time for Fred and Dave (two birds of a feather) to put their insults and smearings on the back burner.
Then practically all of Mr. Crump's messages would have to be deleted since they are rarely about important issues but only Mr. Crump pestering and insulting Dave with frivolous remarks, including the latest 3 PARAGRAPHS of remarks about Barney Fife and going ballistic and HYPOTHETICAL scenarios about Dave's possible wife and children. IF THIS IS NOT REMOVED THEN NOTHING SHOULD EVER BE REMOVED OR EDITED ON THIS SITE PERIOD. What a load of garbage! All a reader on this site has to do is read the dozens of messages and statements of Mr. Crump toward Dave to see that Mr. Crump has decided to be less like Christ toward Dave and more like a chump. I have read where a man named Roger has noticed the same thing and expressed concern for Mr. Crump. Again Dave do not concern yourself so much with replying and defending yourself to Mr. Crump. Readers with a brain disregard his toxic behavior and stupidity. It is people like Mr. Crump that give the Church of Christ a bad reputation period. The Holy Spirit is alive and at work in the hearts of men and it is not too late for the Holy Spirit to quicken the conscience of Mr. Crump that he may repent of his pride, superior attitude, judgmental comments, and insulting and vulgar hypothetical remarks towards people like Dave. He strains a gnat and swallows a camel. Such a religion and way of life is toxic and tragic.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 15th, 2010, 11:59 pm #23

I see that Fred wishes to continue his insults and smears. Why not invite Dave to join you and collaborate on smear jobs? Birds of a feather, you know. That would make the entertainment here far more interesting.
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AM
AM

November 16th, 2010, 2:29 am #24

AM may be withholding the details because he might feel that Dave would not like them. In other words, the truth about that encounter just might be more than Dave would want to read. Eh?
You are correct. Yet there are some other words from others which would show that Rick is not a person that unifies and actually hurts others. Dave would have to be a close friend of Rick to know otherwise. I wonder if Dave has ever met Rick?
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Fred Whaley
Fred Whaley

November 16th, 2010, 4:35 pm #25

I see that Fred wishes to continue his insults and smears. Why not invite Dave to join you and collaborate on smear jobs? Birds of a feather, you know. That would make the entertainment here far more interesting.
Mr. Crump is aggressive toward people until people are aggressive toward him and then he backs off and passively accuses those people of smearing or whatever like he is appalled. Mr. Crump this is not about entertainment nor smears but accountability as I am simply holding you to such and encouraging Dave to ignore you when you take jabs at him below the belt which is almost every message from you to him. As long as you refrain from jabs toward Dave you will not hear from Fred. On the other hand as long as you take jabs at Dave you will continue to hear from Fred.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 16th, 2010, 6:35 pm #26

Fred can make himself "heard" all he wants or as much as the moderator will allow here, but I doubt that anyone is taking Fred's tantrums and ravings very seriously. He's beginning to sound more and more like Dave, who often throws tantrums, and I doubt that anyone takes Dave very seriously either.
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Donnie
Donnie

November 18th, 2010, 5:36 pm #27

john Gill's Commentary on 2 Thessalonians 2:15
And hold the traditions which ye have been taught:
meaning the truths of the Gospel, which may be called traditions, because they are delivered from one to another; the Gospel was first delivered by God the Father to Jesus Christ, as Mediator, and by him to his apostles, and by them to the churches of Christ;

Matthew Henry's Commentary on the same
The Thessalonians are exhorted to steadfastness in their Christian profession, to hold fast the traditions which they had been taught, or the doctrine of the gospel, which had been delivered by the apostle, by word or epistle. As yet the canon of scripture was not complete, and therefore some things were delivered by the apostles in their preaching, under the guidance of the infallible Spirit, which Christians were bound to observe as coming from God;

The People's New Testament
Hold the traditions. Instructions

NOW.....William is trying to tell us that the tradition of a capella, four part harmony is Biblical doctrine??? Doesn't surprise me that he would say thus.....it is just not true.

These man made traditions are not unScriptural, HOWEVER they are still of MEN. As long as these traditions help us TO SING, then it is good. Just as instrumental music AID in singing....they can also be good. The problem is, and where William Crump would have you believe, is that a capella is right where instrumental music is wrong. For a man to say that would be false. That is not grounded in the Scripture, and THIS is where a tradition can be unholy. How about those churches who believe that a capella without harmony is the tradition that is faithful to older times? They want to hold their tradition to be true where a capella is false.
Yes indeed, you DO see what I am talking about.
The worst part of all of this is where a man will abuse Scripture, as William Crump did with 2 Thessalonians 2:15 did to uphold his tradtion......NOT Biblical Doctrine.


Dave,

In your quote from Henry's commentary, what do you think he meant by: "... As yet the canon of scripture was not complete"? Taking into account sequential events and the dates associated with these events, what is "the canon of Scripture" and when was it concluded or completed? Do you consider the Book of Revelation as the last canonized NT book? Do you consider teachings and practices of the early (1st, 2nd, 3rd thru 6th) centuries, although not included in the canonized books and although man-made, as church tranditions that are to be followed and practiced by Christians even today?
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 18th, 2010, 6:23 pm #28

Jesus FIRED the doctors of the Law because they TAKE AWAY THE KEY to knowledge: that's their predestinated job. None of the scholars who prepared them know how to read the text either: if you corrupt the word or "sell learning at retail" God will make you look silly.

The active verb in the"not instrumental music passages" is.

G2980 lale lal-eh'-o A prolonged form of an otherwise obsolete verb; to talk, that is, utter words:preach, say, speak (after), talk, tell, utter. Compare G3004 .


Liddell/Scott proves that these guys CANNOT assist God in Jesus Christ. Woe.

Laleo A. talk, chat, prattle,generally talk, speak,

OPPOSITE poiesis FABRICATION A. , creation, production, opp. praxis
(action, h tn meln p. Id.Grg.449d; mimsis
2. of Poetry, h tn dithurambn p., ts tragdias, tn epn,
Melos B. esp. musical member, phrase: hence, song, strain, of lyric poetry,

2. music to which a song is set, tune, Arist.Po.1450a14; opp. rhuthmos, metron, Pl.Grg. 502c; opp. rhuthmos, rhma, Id.Lg.656c; Krtikon, Karikon, Inikon m.,
3. melody of an instrument, phormigx (Abaddon's harp) d' au phtheggoith' hieron (religious shrine) m. de kai aulos

II. representation by means of art, Pl.Sph.265b, R.598b, al.; esp. of dramatic poetry, Arist.Po.1447a22, al.

Jesus called them all hypocrites: that is the Greek definitionn of a hypocrite.

Jesus will not pray for the WORLD and God hides Himself from the wise meaning SOPHISTS speakers, singers, instrument players.

Sowing discord is a terminal offense and John said that sorcerers (speakers, singers, instrument players Rev 18) are headed for the Lake of Fire.

These peoplel will hurt you real bad.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

November 18th, 2010, 10:18 pm #29

Jesus said that worship should be IN Spirit which is a PLACE as opposed to IN a house built by human hands. The UNIQUE worship or giving heed word means to GIVE HEED to the Word of God.

In Philippians 3 Paul said that they worshipped IN THE SPIRIT as opposed to IN THE FLESH. That was because the DOGS or Cynics (Catamites) would be howling their "praise songs."

It is beyond human possiblity to GIVE HEED to the Words of Christ and the words of a preacher who is not a scholar however many degrees he has received from people who do not know their craft as say a Phd in Engineering who gets hurt for lying about his documents.

None of the Bible is METRICAL and the Bible is that which is written for our LEARNING. Thereefore, to sing wimpy-burger praise song in a style of the theater INTENDS to violate all of the direct commands. You will never find disciples flockikng to a theater.

Thayers G2980 Laleo
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... 2980&t=KJV

This is specificially defined as the word by which God speaks to mankind.
1) to utter a voice or emit a sound
2) to speak
a) to use the tongue or the faculty of speech
b) to utter articulate sounds
3) to talk
4) to utter, tell
5) to use words in order to declare one's mind and disclose one's thoughts
a) to speak

Thayer G3004 Lego

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lex ... JV&page=44

1) to say, to speak
a) affirm over, maintain
b) to teach
c) to exhort, advise, to command, direct
d) to point out with words, intend, mean, mean to say
e) to call by name, to call, name
f) to speak out, speak of, mention

If you MAKE MUSIC when Jesus is speaking when the elders (only) teach that which has been taught then you are mocking Jesus.
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Joined: March 2nd, 2011, 7:23 pm

March 2nd, 2011, 9:03 pm #30

"Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle" (2 Thess. 2:15 KJV).

Dr. Bill Crump,

It is talking about the traditions from God. It is not talking about the traditions from the legalistic patternistic modern day pharisee's in the Church of Christ denomination.

David
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