The Evolving Creed of the Progressive Church of Christ

Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

February 1st, 2017, 3:33 am #21

"Baptism is AUTO-TUPOS..."

Make that ANTI-Tupos.

The Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is a FORM or Type or Tupos.
We can't die for our own sins or become a Disciple of Christ.

We obey that doctrine which "was delivered to you." Jesus as personified "Grace" hath appeared TEACHING. Grace is the power to conform and not freedom to flaunt. That power is in the gospel which can be obeyed only by baptism because Jesus told us so.

Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


The opposite can be inferred: those who refuse to be baptized don't have the 'heart" and we can conclude "They are NOT made free from sin."

Grace never makes one free from sin or the all of the world would be free from sin by the act of Jesus.

1Pet. 3:21 The like figure [ANTI-TUPOS] whereunto
even baptism doth also now save us


Now you can stop right there. Peter says that Baptism saves us because we obey a type or form of the PATTERN established by Jesus. If Jesus had said "raise your right hand and you will be saved" then those who refused to raise their right hand would not be saved. Obedience is not legalism. The only question is how DOES BAPTISM SAVE US?

Not ceremonial purification or taking a bath:
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,


Baptism SAVES US because it is a REQUEST FOR A good conscience or A holy spirit.

but the answer [inquire, seek: —
ask (after, questions), demand, desire, question.] of a good conscience toward God


A good conscience is A holy spirit in Acts 2:38 and also means a CONSCIOUSNESS or a CO-PERCEPTION of the Word of God. However rich or famous those who place themselves between believers and the Word and the Author is blind and deaf and they just sound silly except by other theologians.

Baptism is the Jesus-decreed and only way to call upon HIM and request A holy spirit. It is not our WORK but.

by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


We obey that Type as Anti or Instead of form and are raised WITH Christ because HE was raised.
If Jesus said, "Here is a way to ask entrance as my disciple. Letting someone figurative drown you and raise you is SPIRITUALLY EFFECTIVE because Jesus said THIS IS YOUR FIRST ACT to prove that you want to be a Student and agree to fill out the application form. People denounce Baptism because it IS a way of showing that you want to be a LEARNER and not the master.

Notice that in Romans 10 where the STEPS are made clear, Paul equates believing to obeying: the Greek Pistis includes reaching the point of COMPLYING.

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


Those who do not KNOW GOD are those who do not OBEY THE GOSPEL:

2Th. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Your creed is wrong because being the elect or called out does not make you predestined. Remember that only those who obeyed the command to be baptized were added to the House of God or the Church of Christ.

1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


The Grace-Centered or Grace-Only people are Apistos or "believeth nots" and are in rebellion against God and all authority.





Last edited by Ken.Sublett on February 3rd, 2017, 3:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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February 1st, 2017, 3:50 pm #22

Dave, absolutely excellent!

This helps me to fill in some blanks that I have been looking for.
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February 1st, 2017, 4:42 pm #23

"Baptism is AUTO-TUPOS..."

Make that ANTI-Tupos.

The Death, burial and resurrection of Jesus is a FORM or Type or Tupos.
We can't die for our own sins or become a Disciple of Christ.

We obey that doctrine which "was delivered to you." Jesus as personified "Grace" hath appeared TEACHING. Grace is the power to conform and not freedom to flaunt. That power is in the gospel which can be obeyed only by baptism because Jesus told us so.

Rom. 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye WERE the servants of sin,
but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom. 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.


The opposite can be inferred: those who refuse to be baptized don't have the 'heart" and we can conclude "They are NOT made free from sin."

Grace never makes one free from sin or the all of the world would be free from sin by the act of Jesus.

1Pet. 3:21 The like figure [ANTI-TUPOS] whereunto
even baptism doth also now save us


Now you can stop right there. Peter says that Baptism saves us because we obey a type or form of the PATTERN established by Jesus. If Jesus had said "raise your right hand and you will be saved" then those who refused to raise their right hand would not be saved. Obedience is not legalism. The only question is how DOES BAPTISM SAVE US?

Not ceremonial purification or taking a bath:
(not the putting away of the filth of the flesh,


Baptism SAVES US because it is a REQUEST FOR A good conscience or A holy spirit.

but the answer [inquire, seek: —
ask (after, questions), demand, desire, question.] of a good conscience toward God


A good conscience is A holy spirit in Acts 2:38 and also means a CONSCIOUSNESS or a CO-PERCEPTION of the Word of God. However rich or famous those who place themselves between believers and the Word and the Author is blind and deaf and they just sound silly except by other theologians.

Baptism is the Jesus-decreed and only way to call upon HIM and request A holy spirit. It is not our WORK but.

by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:


We obey that Type as Anti or Instead of form and are raised WITH Christ because HE was raised.
If Jesus said, "Here is a way to ask entrance as my disciple. Letting someone figurative drown you and raise you is SPIRITUALLY EFFECTIVE because Jesus said THIS IS YOUR FIRST ACT to prove that you want to be a Student and agree to fill out the application form. People denounce Baptism because it IS a way of showing that you want to be a LEARNER and not the master.

Notice that in Romans 10 where the STEPS are made clear, Paul equates believing to obeying: the Greek Pistis includes reaching the point of COMPLYING.

Rom. 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?


Those who do not KNOW GOD are those who do not OBEY THE GOSPEL:

2Th. 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:


Your creed is wrong because being the elect or called out does not make you predestined. Remember that only those who obeyed the command to be baptized were added to the House of God or the Church of Christ.

1Pet. 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?


The Grace-Centered or Grace-Only people are Apistos or "believeth nots" and are in rebellion against God and all authority.





Thanks Sarge for the extended-discussion creedal statement which you posted.

There is much to be commended in this text, and it is thought-provoking. This text actually "covers the world" in it scope, so it is difficult to focus on all of it at one time. Your text does rightfully show that the regenerated and saved person does have righteous fruit on the tree, and this is absolutely true.

The biggest point of discussion on your text is concerning etiology, or the science of causes, as to what order events occur, and what triggers or causes something else, or what results from an earlier cause.

Repentance seems always to precede faith in your text but I can see situations where faith preceded repentance, for example in the case of the Prodigal Son, who found himself in a hog lot, but his faith in his father led to a repentance. "The Goodness of God leads man to repentance" according to Romans 2:4. I see this to mean that it takes some amount of faith, at least belief, to understand the atoning gift of Christ, and that in turn leads to repentance.

Many people see that regeneration is the result of repentance and faith (plus humble obedience) rather than the cause of repentance and faith.

There are many interesting paragraphs and I include one:

We believe that in order to be saved, we must be regenerated or born again; that regeneration consists in giving a holy disposition to the mind; and is effected in a manner above our comprehension or calculation, by the power of the Holy Spirit, in connection with divine truth, so as to secure our voluntary obedience to the Gospel; and that its proper evidence is found in the holy fruit which we bring forth to the glory of God.

This appears to say that regeneration or the new birth may precede repentance and faith. That is God Himself, according to your text, provides the regeneration so salvation may actually precede repentance and faith.

A more rational model for regeneration is that God provides the atonement in the gift of Jesus Christ, that man might be awakened by his sinful condition (such as in the hog lot of the Prodigal Son) and coupled with his belief or faith in God and Christ, that person turns toward God (repentance). The parable of the Prodigal Son places repentance in the heart of the believer, rather than to say that God Himself chooses some to be saved and other He either ignores and allows to be lost. That is, every person is responsible for his own decision to convert, rather than on a God who preselects or predestines just some individuals to be regenerated.


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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 1st, 2017, 5:12 pm #24

Donnie posted: Born of Water and Spirit

Mark 10:17—“… Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?”
Luke 10:25—“… Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Luke 18:18—“… Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
Titus 1:2—“In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began….”
Titus 3:7—“That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
I John 2:25—“And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.”
Jude 1:21—“Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto [eis, toward] eternal life.”
Matt. 25:46—“And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.”
John 12:25—“He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto [toward] life eternal.”
Matt. 19:29—“And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.”
Rom. 6:22—“But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.”
James 1:12—“Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
Rev. 2:10—“… be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.”
Heb. 10:36—“For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.”
Heb. 9:15—“And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 1st, 2017, 5:29 pm #25

The current preacher has now been at Madison for about two years. The creed left behind by Jason Shepherd is still intact. The eldership is reduced to a core of about six people, most of whom have a long record of Church of Christ membership. Much of what is said is definitely not traditional with Churches of Christ. Other parts are traditional, but the creed itself betrays the early open attitude of the Restoration leaders. The following is the current creed of the Madison Church as reflected in “What We Believe” under madisonchurchtn.org. Some of these points are in keeping with the historical Restoration, but many are a betrayal.

1. The Bible is not only morally and theologically is perfect, but it is infallible scientifically and historically. Nothing is said about the symbolic and figurative statements in the Old and New Testaments.

2. The steps toward salvation are (1) grace, (2) repentance, (3) faith, and (4) cross of Calvary. This is apparently their four step plan.

3. The Trinity as defined in traditional Protestantism is affirmed, with no latitude is given to those who disagree with Madison.

4. “Water” baptism is by immersion, but it is impotent, being only a command. Notice it is not part of their four-step plan. They state nothing about baptism and remission of sins.

5. Communion is an observance as an expression of worship–no sacramental blessing are said to be attributed to it. Nothing is said about the blessings inherent in the Lord’s Supper. Their high church language refers to the Lord’s Supper as Communion.

6. The primary function of the church, as they see it, is to socialize, although it is states to be “share life together.” There is no salvific (saving) function of the church. They state that the church encourages one another and serves the community.

7. Tithing belongs to the Lord. That 10 percent is His. Yet it is to be given “willingly.”

8. The resurrection is affirmed.

9. The virgin birth is affirmed.

10. The Spirit-filled life “empowers” us to live counter-culturally, they say. We strive to live holy lives as an expression of faith.
Alexander Campbell collected a large number of comments proving that "born of water and spirit" means baptism. The subject is how can a MAN who already exists be born again? The LU, John York, Rubel Shelly views is that born again means born FROM ABOVE meaning. However, the Greek speaks not of a supernatural act from God but born from "Old" meaning regenerated to the old, pure state. When Paul spoke of needing to return to Christ the word is be restored and the compound word speaks of being returned to the ancient or innocent state of childhood. Jesus connects being regenerated with A holy spirit as available only through obedience at baptism. That repudiates "believer's baptism" or being baptized AFTER you are regenerated which is the existing PAGAN BAPTISM. Apollon is called the WASHER and the Shock and Awe created by religious rituals was supposed to PURIFY the soul after which one dipped in water to prove that he had been musicated into an ecstatic state. Leonard Allen at LU says that God is ECSTATIC and David Young of one of my "investments" wants to turn what he calls worship into an experience of Shock and Awe. His love of the Cane Ridge "revival" was historically seen as Witchcraft. Barton Stone was converted and said that the madness could not be by A holy spirit Who apparentl acts only in strange and rare cases. The born again has several passages including 2 Corinthians 3 which I have not added to this table.

http://www.piney.com/BapPagan.html

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Dave
Dave

February 1st, 2017, 9:59 pm #26

Verily Verily, yea and even Verily more....
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February 1st, 2017, 10:06 pm #27

Alexander Campbell collected a large number of comments proving that "born of water and spirit" means baptism. The subject is how can a MAN who already exists be born again? The LU, John York, Rubel Shelly views is that born again means born FROM ABOVE meaning. However, the Greek speaks not of a supernatural act from God but born from "Old" meaning regenerated to the old, pure state. When Paul spoke of needing to return to Christ the word is be restored and the compound word speaks of being returned to the ancient or innocent state of childhood. Jesus connects being regenerated with A holy spirit as available only through obedience at baptism. That repudiates "believer's baptism" or being baptized AFTER you are regenerated which is the existing PAGAN BAPTISM. Apollon is called the WASHER and the Shock and Awe created by religious rituals was supposed to PURIFY the soul after which one dipped in water to prove that he had been musicated into an ecstatic state. Leonard Allen at LU says that God is ECSTATIC and David Young of one of my "investments" wants to turn what he calls worship into an experience of Shock and Awe. His love of the Cane Ridge "revival" was historically seen as Witchcraft. Barton Stone was converted and said that the madness could not be by A holy spirit Who apparentl acts only in strange and rare cases. The born again has several passages including 2 Corinthians 3 which I have not added to this table.

http://www.piney.com/BapPagan.html

Great comparison from Ken of several passages related to Acts 3:19.

There is a quibble about the translations of "be converted" versus "convert", "return", and "turn back." KJV says "be converted."

"Be converted" refers more or less to what Sarge has specified in his text with God doing the converting, whereas a whole number of translations stick to the more active verb such as "convert" or "return" which would imply the individual himself is the active agent.

So you see, the translation of one word takes us in entirely different directions. This is why we need a variety of translations.

Do we place the full weight of conversion on God? or Do we give the human being the credit for making a bold decision?



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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 2nd, 2017, 3:46 am #28

The current preacher has now been at Madison for about two years. The creed left behind by Jason Shepherd is still intact. The eldership is reduced to a core of about six people, most of whom have a long record of Church of Christ membership. Much of what is said is definitely not traditional with Churches of Christ. Other parts are traditional, but the creed itself betrays the early open attitude of the Restoration leaders. The following is the current creed of the Madison Church as reflected in “What We Believe” under madisonchurchtn.org. Some of these points are in keeping with the historical Restoration, but many are a betrayal.

1. The Bible is not only morally and theologically is perfect, but it is infallible scientifically and historically. Nothing is said about the symbolic and figurative statements in the Old and New Testaments.

2. The steps toward salvation are (1) grace, (2) repentance, (3) faith, and (4) cross of Calvary. This is apparently their four step plan.

3. The Trinity as defined in traditional Protestantism is affirmed, with no latitude is given to those who disagree with Madison.

4. “Water” baptism is by immersion, but it is impotent, being only a command. Notice it is not part of their four-step plan. They state nothing about baptism and remission of sins.

5. Communion is an observance as an expression of worship–no sacramental blessing are said to be attributed to it. Nothing is said about the blessings inherent in the Lord’s Supper. Their high church language refers to the Lord’s Supper as Communion.

6. The primary function of the church, as they see it, is to socialize, although it is states to be “share life together.” There is no salvific (saving) function of the church. They state that the church encourages one another and serves the community.

7. Tithing belongs to the Lord. That 10 percent is His. Yet it is to be given “willingly.”

8. The resurrection is affirmed.

9. The virgin birth is affirmed.

10. The Spirit-filled life “empowers” us to live counter-culturally, they say. We strive to live holy lives as an expression of faith.
People get very angry when you refuse to limit yourself to Websters.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

February 2nd, 2017, 4:44 am #29

Had a long visit from a lady friend today about real estate. She is a baptist and noted that the preacher began by saying that he wanted to discuss "once saved always saved". She and her husband noted: "there goes his job." All he did was list some passages proving that one does not have to continued to be saved which includes being SAFE by their own choice.

Most Calvinist Baptists never reach the point where "once saved" begins which is in personal predestination. This says that God picks some to be saved and some to be lost: this is to prove his sovereignty

God's sovereignty in salvation means that He saves whom He will, and those whom He saves owe nothing to anything in or of themselves. They are saved because God graciously chose them in eternity and regenerated and called them in history. They cannot even take credit for their faith because it is the gift that He Himself sovereignly bestows.


God picks some to be saved to PROVE that He is the big guy on the block. Just to whom does He have to prove that he is in charge.

According to John Calvin,

"Predestination we call the eternal decree of God, by which He has determined in Himself, what He would have to become of every individual of mankind. For they are not all created with a similar destiny; but eternal life is foreordained for some and eternal death for others. Every man, therefore, being created for one or the other of these ends, we say he is predestinated either to life or to death." Institutes, Book III, Ch. XXI, Sec. 5.


That new daughter you just welcomed into your home may be a murderer or an adulteress doomed to burn in hell.
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Dave
Dave

February 3rd, 2017, 3:34 am #30

Ken needs to quit showing his age and stupidity. That is my name up there but NOT my post.

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