Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

December 19th, 2010, 3:05 pm #11

I've noticed that when Dave disagrees with people, he becomes particularly agitated and adds extraneous expressions like "very immature" to his comments. I wonder if Dave may have feelings of insecurity about his own beliefs and convictions and uses those extraneous expressions as a defense mechanism to "strengthen" himself.
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Dave
Dave

December 19th, 2010, 11:00 pm #12

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

I think that you've almost made up your mind as a mature Christian by not addressing others as: "son" ... "boys" ... "ole boy," etc. Except when you said: "you ... look very immature." I think that many readers would agree that messages are clearer and more meaningful and civil without these extraneous expressions. Hopefully, you've arrived.

I would like to point out that the use of mechanical music in the assembly is a man-made tradition.

(1) The NT church of the first century did not use it.
(2) The Roman Catholic Church initiated it.
(3) Protestant Churches propagated it.
(4) Certain "progressive" churches of Christ are IMITATING.
(5) The imitating churches of Christ are now affiliated with Community Churches or the Christian Church.

Interestingly:

(1) Dave, your own congregation in S.C. is non-instrumental.
(2) Sonny Elliot's congregation is non-instrumental.
(3) Fred Whaley's congregation is non-IM.
(4) Jeff Walling's (a prominent Change Agent) congregation is non-IM.

Churches of Christ are virtually non-instrumental (99.888888%). That would be 100% if only Change Agents would leave peaceful congregations alone.

Remember this, Dave: The New Testament church of the first century did not practice it. Christ and the apostles did not teach it. The Roman Catholic Church started it and thus mechanical music became a man-made tradition.[/color]
Never said that instrumental music wasn't a tradition. It is.
So is four part harmony. It goes beyond what is needed....which is singing. Does God here the different tenor, bass, soprano, or alto notes? Only God knows. If the worship is from the heart, then why would you need four part harmony? You don't! We know that WE like it. Again, the playing of the instrument is individual expression, just as the four part harmony is.
Does that make either one wrong?
No!
Donnie, you put up with William Crump. You push this site.
You are immature also.
Remember about the truth and how sometimes it hurts?
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

December 19th, 2010, 11:49 pm #13

If Donnie "puts up" with me, did Dave ever consider the fact that Donnie also "puts up" with Dave?
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

December 20th, 2010, 1:13 am #14

There's nothing wrong with four-part harmony, because God doesn't address harmony in the New Testament. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with many other things, because God also doesn't address them: for example, kitchens in the church, church buildings, pews, PA systems, microphones, indoor plumbing, electricity, restrooms, etc., etc. Those items and many others like them do not clash with God's existing commands. We may choose to do without any of those items, but having them all is certainly not sinful.

However, instrumental music DOES clash with God's existing command to sing and make melody in the heart. The ONLY type of music that the New Testament authorizes us to use is vocal music, not instrumental music. Although we are told to sing, we are not told whether to sing in unison or in harmony. We are not told the tempo or the volume to use. Therefore, harmony, volume, and tempo are at our discretion. We may NOT use our discretion about the KIND/TYPE of music to use, because the command specifies VOCAL MUSIC, NOT INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC. If you say, "Who cares? Music is music," then you put your own preferences ahead of God's EXPLICIT command to use vocal music. We would be free to have any kind of music if God had said, "Worship Me with music [not otherwise specified]"; since God is quite specific about vocal music, we are not free to do as we please.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 20th, 2010, 2:15 am #15

Never said that instrumental music wasn't a tradition. It is.
So is four part harmony. It goes beyond what is needed....which is singing. Does God here the different tenor, bass, soprano, or alto notes? Only God knows. If the worship is from the heart, then why would you need four part harmony? You don't! We know that WE like it. Again, the playing of the instrument is individual expression, just as the four part harmony is.
Does that make either one wrong?
No!
Donnie, you put up with William Crump. You push this site.
You are immature also.
Remember about the truth and how sometimes it hurts?
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave,

You're right -- I recall that you "never said that instrumental music wasn't a tradition." But only because you always said the opposite -- that "a cappella worship" is a tradition.

Non-mention in the New Testament (or in the entire Bible> of activities or practices does not make anything into a tradition.

1. NT does not mention the worship of the Virgin Mary.
2. NT does not mention veneration of angels and dead saints.
3. NT does not mention prayers for the dead.
4. NT does not mention the sale of indulgences (forgiveness).
5. NT does not mention confession of sin to the priest.
6. NT does not mention operating mechanical music in assembly.

Therefore:

1. Non-worship of the Virgin Mary is NOT a tradition.
2. Non-veneration of angels and dead saints is NOT a tradition.
3. Non-prayer for the dead is NOT a tradition.
4. Non-sale of indulgences is NOT a tradition.
5. Non-confession of sin to the priest is NOT a tradition.
6. Non-use of musical instruments in assembly is NOT a tradition.

However, when any of the following is practiced, it is (becomes) a MAN-MADE TRADITION:

1. Worship of the Virgin Mary.
2. Veneration of angels and dead saints.
3. Praying for the dead.
4. Sale of indulgences (forgiveness).
5. Confession of sin to the priest.
6. Mechanical playing of musical devices in the assembly.

I realize the list happens to be "sacred traditions" of the Roman Catholic Church, although there are other man-made traditions believed and practiced in "Christianity." After all, it was the RCC that originated the "CHOIR BOYS" and instrumental music.

Oh, the "four-part harmony" argument.

Let's see.

I'm glad there are those parts in "harmony." You see, Dave, if I were to sing the soprano or tenor part of certain songs, my voice would be like that of duck squeaking. Thanks to the alto or bass part that I can sing. It is still singing.

But in regard to the MAN-MADE TRADITION of using those lifeless, inanimate, soul-less musical devices in the gathering of saints, it does not matter which of the following instruments is used, it is still that man-made tradition of using musical objects or idols in the assembly:

-- cornet
-- flute
-- harp
-- psaltery
-- trumpet
-- cymbal
-- timbrel
-- stringed instruments
-- pipe
-- dulcimer
-- piano
-- organ
-- sackbut

It does not matter what the favorite musical instrument is. It is still PLAYING a musical device in the assembly -- a man-made tradition.
`
"If it is worship from the heart"? Wow!!! Who could be more sincere or do worship more from the heart than devout Roman Catholics? Buddhists? Shintoists? Mohammedans? Jehovah's Witnesses?[/color]
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Dave
Dave

December 20th, 2010, 3:24 pm #16

Donnie, so now you believe that a Buddhist can have a correct heart to worship God?

You said..."Who could be more sincere or do worship more from the heart than devout Roman Catholics? Buddhists? Shintoists? Mohammedans? Jehovah's Witnesses?

I knew you were out there with some of your beliefs, but like you said...WOW!!!
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Roncar
Roncar

December 20th, 2010, 3:43 pm #17

There's nothing wrong with four-part harmony, because God doesn't address harmony in the New Testament. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with many other things, because God also doesn't address them: for example, kitchens in the church, church buildings, pews, PA systems, microphones, indoor plumbing, electricity, restrooms, etc., etc. Those items and many others like them do not clash with God's existing commands. We may choose to do without any of those items, but having them all is certainly not sinful.

However, instrumental music DOES clash with God's existing command to sing and make melody in the heart. The ONLY type of music that the New Testament authorizes us to use is vocal music, not instrumental music. Although we are told to sing, we are not told whether to sing in unison or in harmony. We are not told the tempo or the volume to use. Therefore, harmony, volume, and tempo are at our discretion. We may NOT use our discretion about the KIND/TYPE of music to use, because the command specifies VOCAL MUSIC, NOT INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC. If you say, "Who cares? Music is music," then you put your own preferences ahead of God's EXPLICIT command to use vocal music. We would be free to have any kind of music if God had said, "Worship Me with music [not otherwise specified]"; since God is quite specific about vocal music, we are not free to do as we please.
Dr. Crump, if I understand you correctly, solo singers and amplified singers are acceptable?
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Dave
Dave

December 20th, 2010, 3:46 pm #18

There's nothing wrong with four-part harmony, because God doesn't address harmony in the New Testament. Likewise, there's nothing wrong with many other things, because God also doesn't address them: for example, kitchens in the church, church buildings, pews, PA systems, microphones, indoor plumbing, electricity, restrooms, etc., etc. Those items and many others like them do not clash with God's existing commands. We may choose to do without any of those items, but having them all is certainly not sinful.

However, instrumental music DOES clash with God's existing command to sing and make melody in the heart. The ONLY type of music that the New Testament authorizes us to use is vocal music, not instrumental music. Although we are told to sing, we are not told whether to sing in unison or in harmony. We are not told the tempo or the volume to use. Therefore, harmony, volume, and tempo are at our discretion. We may NOT use our discretion about the KIND/TYPE of music to use, because the command specifies VOCAL MUSIC, NOT INSTRUMENTAL MUSIC. If you say, "Who cares? Music is music," then you put your own preferences ahead of God's EXPLICIT command to use vocal music. We would be free to have any kind of music if God had said, "Worship Me with music [not otherwise specified]"; since God is quite specific about vocal music, we are not free to do as we please.
William Crump said...."However, instrumental music DOES clash with God's existing command to sing and make melody in the heart."

In all of his meanderings he has never explained why instrumental music clashes with the command to sing.

If you play an instrument (piano, guitar, sakbut for Donnie), AND sing along with the playing how does that clash with the command to sing?

It does NOT!!! We aren't commanded to play, as has been suggested. We aren't commanded to use the PA system either. We play.....we use the PA system.....to AID the singing.
All in HARMONY to keep our worship ORDERLY.
See guys, it is really not that hard to understand....unless you have hangups with traditions.
Right?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 20th, 2010, 4:01 pm #19

Donnie, so now you believe that a Buddhist can have a correct heart to worship God?

You said..."Who could be more sincere or do worship more from the heart than devout Roman Catholics? Buddhists? Shintoists? Mohammedans? Jehovah's Witnesses?

I knew you were out there with some of your beliefs, but like you said...WOW!!!
No, Dave, "sincerity" was YOUR idea. But Scripture says: "worship ... in spirit and in truth."

Besides, "singing" and PLAYING don't mix in worship.
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Dave
Dave

December 20th, 2010, 4:36 pm #20

I mentioned sincerity from a Christian standpoint. YOU however, mentioned the Buddhist.
That was a direct quote from you Donnie.

Singing and playing doesn't mix in worship in YOUR MIND Donnie....just because you don't like the playing.

You don't like the playing to accompany the voice, but you do like the PA to accompany the voice.
Neither the playing nor the PA are authorized. What you have defined is PREFERENCE Donnie.

William....help me out here. Is the neither good with the nor??? Since we use neither and nor, could it thus be in singular form and thus we should use 'are' or 'is?'
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