The Amorality of Modern Church Worship

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March 31st, 2016, 3:40 pm #1

The lack of teaching on such themes as marriage, honesty in daily living, sexual morality, duties to fellow man has had a dreadful effect on faithfulness not only to Christ but to the Church.

This is especially obvious when we analyze the teachings from the pulpit. The obsession with grace, to the ignoring of the workmanship of the Christian (See Ephesians 2:8-11), has led to latitudinal behavior and a pathetic answer to "Why would Jesus do?" (WWJD). Clearly the passage says that if we are "saved by grace through faith" that we are the workmanship of God.

It is also obvious when we examine our worship hymns. They are usually devoid of moral teaching. In this way, the modern worship service is a "golden calf," with us admiring the gold, but we have a calf instead of a moral God.

The continual emphasis on "fruits of the spirit" with a complete ignoring of the "works of the flesh" has become a disgrace to those who really want to realign their lives along Christian virtues. See Galatians 5:16-26.

The church worshipper comes away from worship "thirsty." Jesus said that he was the water of life.

John 4:13 Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14 but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”

Isn't it about time we left the elemental teachings and are ready for meat of the word. Hebrews 6:1-3.

Simplistic teaching leads many to leave the church to search for some better instructions about how to lead their lives.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 31st, 2016, 4:20 pm #2

Millions of dollars are spent on "worship centers" Purpose Driven to denounce keeping commands, examples or even remote inferences for anyone not conspiring. Youth have their own centers and retreats where they are taught to despise the older generation even though "the did the best they could with their limited inability to read beyond the sacred pages."

The constantly teach that God was not opposed to the EXTERNAL worship in Amos but only their lack of spirituality. In fact, their lack of spirituality produces the musical idolatry including burning infants.

Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit.


Looky! the Catamites, the lusted after Fruits.

Amos 8:2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit.

THE MARK: the "concision" or "dogs" Paul excluded by making worship in SPIRIT as opposed to IN FLESH.

3611. keleb, keh´-leb; from an unused root means. to yelp, or else to attack; a dog; hence (by euphemism) a male prostitute:—dog.

then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
Amos 8:3 And the songs of the temple shall be howlings in that day,


Howling has much the same meaning as HALAL 3213. yalal, yaw-lal´; a primitive root; to howl (with a wailing tone) or yell (with a boisterous one):—(make to) howl, be howling.

saith the Lord GOD: there shall be many dead bodies in every place; they shall cast them forth with silence.
Amos 8:4 Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail,
Amos 8:5 Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn?
<font color="#FFFFFF">.....
and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat,
.....making the ephah small, and the shekel great,
vand falsifying the balances by deceit?
Amos 8:6 That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes;
.....yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat?

Amos 8:11 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
Amos 8:12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.
Amos 8:13 In that day shall the fair virgins and young men faint for thirst.
Amos 8:14 They that swear by the sin of Samaria, and say, Thy god, O Dan, liveth; and, The manner of Beersheba liveth; even they shall fall, and never rise up again.
Amos 9:1 ¶ I saw the Lord standing upon the altar: and he said, Smite the lintel of the door, that the posts may shake: and cut them in the head, all of them; and I will slay the last of them with the sword: he that fleeth of them shall not flee away, and he that escapeth of them shall not be delivered.
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Last edited by Ken.Sublett on March 31st, 2016, 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:16 pm

March 31st, 2016, 4:59 pm #3

I have experienced the opposite Scripture. We were getting from the pulpit, the wisdom of man, which was nothing more than psychology. We had 6 lessons on Marriage, within the last 4 months. Which over emphasized the man is the head of the woman. I believe that most know this who are members of the CoC. Of course, someone could have been oblivious of this fact, but wouldn't it have been better to take them aside to help them. Kind of reminds me of promise keepers spiel. Anyway, I submit these verses for your consideration:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ KJV)
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭12‬ KJV)

By the way, I agree with you about the songs. I think they are intended to make you feel good, instead of teach the scripture in which they are based.
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March 31st, 2016, 5:30 pm #4

There is a divide between progressive Churches of Christ and traditional.

I just haven't heard any lessons on marriage, and the topic is mute.

I'm glad that at least some are trying to teach, however imperfectly.

I use "progressive" only as a nominal term, not meaning that they are truly progressive.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 31st, 2016, 5:47 pm #5

I believe that J. E. Choate used the term "Lurching toward Sodom."

I think they are progressing toward Babylon.

"Standing in the bowl of the winged serpent, we are inside that sacramental chalice, drinking with our eyes, so to say, the intoxicant, there symbolized as wine, of the mystery of the substance of our being." - Joseph Campbell, Creative Mythology

"when the symbols provided by the social group no longer work, and the symbols that do work are no longer of the group, the individual cracks away, becomes disassociated and disoriented, and we are confronted with what can only be named a pathology of the symbol."
(Joseph Campbell, Myths to Live By, p. 89).


Campbell speaks of AFFECT IMAGES: the image of the new wineskin was one such affect image which has power over them minds of the simple lambs. Sectarian, Legalists andother words are gulped down by the bloggers like they had received a revelation from a supernatural being: Jude says that they probably did.

A huge tribulation happened right on time when the preachers lost faith in their "means op financial gain". Campbell and others agree with Paul when he called it strong delusions. The old "worship" didn't work so the invented "progressive" rituals but they were really "cracking away to the archaic" never knowing that they had lost connection with the HEAD.

The Jubilee Conspiracy jump started by the Pope boasted about "upsetting people's comfort zones" or creating dissociation. Paul calls them MAD women who had convinced everyone that no one could get a vision from a real "god" unless they were first driven mad.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 31st, 2016, 6:14 pm #6

I have experienced the opposite Scripture. We were getting from the pulpit, the wisdom of man, which was nothing more than psychology. We had 6 lessons on Marriage, within the last 4 months. Which over emphasized the man is the head of the woman. I believe that most know this who are members of the CoC. Of course, someone could have been oblivious of this fact, but wouldn't it have been better to take them aside to help them. Kind of reminds me of promise keepers spiel. Anyway, I submit these verses for your consideration:

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: (‭2 Timothy‬ ‭3‬:‭16‬ KJV)
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. (‭Hebrews‬ ‭4‬:‭12‬ KJV)

By the way, I agree with you about the songs. I think they are intended to make you feel good, instead of teach the scripture in which they are based.
Adam was to "cleave" to eve which meant that Adam should have been aware of the Devil and protected Eve.

Being the HEAD of a WOMAN mantra probably means that someone is trying to intimidate someone about who is on first. After 59 years my wife and I never had that discussion.

Paul was telling the men to pray for peace and silence to prevent an outbreak of wrath or and ORGY as the musical thing. He is telling the men to be SILENT in the "worship" sense.

He told the women to be silent because some just out of paganism believed that their singing, playing, clapping etc was evidence that their just out of paganism gods were speaking through them.

The men are to exercise authority which would silence everyhing.
The women are not to exercise authority or AUTHENTIA which means "self-authoring" as in modern songs and sermons.

The PURPOSE for silence was the one-piece pattern for the assembly. Saved always asks "made SAFE from what?"

1Tim. 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


Word is Logos is truth is the Regulative Principle: excludes rhetoric, personal opinions, personal experiences, introductions, singing, playing instruments or acting.

All of keeping the women silent because many "just out of paganism" thought that if they "had a song" it must be from a God. Men are to be silent beyond the command to PREACH the word by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine. Sorry but that will not supply wages beyond GOING and teaching what Jesus commanded to be taught.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;


Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father:
and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father;
and who the Father is, but the Son,
and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Jesus has already commanded that the elders "teach that which HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and therefore many usurp authority over Jesus.

Men don't get that authority otherwise. I get to be in charge when my wife leaves for a few days to visit relatives. That puts me under the dog and cat. Jesus defined RULING as SERVING. A RULER IS A PROTECTOR.







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March 31st, 2016, 6:28 pm #7

Did the preacher who spoke of wives obedience to their husband discuss "Husbands love your wives"?

Did he discuss husband should not provoke the wife to wrath, even as fathers might children? Ephesians 6:4.

Did he discuss that man and woman are "of the same flesh"? Ephesians 5:31.

He could point out that Paul discusses both side of every relationship, husbands and wives, fathers and children, and slaves and masters. Notice that mothers and children are not discussed in the passage, and that is odd is that the primary relationship in the family is mother with child.

Did he mention that Ephesians was written during a patriarchal society, such as Rome? How would the passage be applied today?



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Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:16 pm

March 31st, 2016, 8:28 pm #8

Adam was to "cleave" to eve which meant that Adam should have been aware of the Devil and protected Eve.

Being the HEAD of a WOMAN mantra probably means that someone is trying to intimidate someone about who is on first. After 59 years my wife and I never had that discussion.

Paul was telling the men to pray for peace and silence to prevent an outbreak of wrath or and ORGY as the musical thing. He is telling the men to be SILENT in the "worship" sense.

He told the women to be silent because some just out of paganism believed that their singing, playing, clapping etc was evidence that their just out of paganism gods were speaking through them.

The men are to exercise authority which would silence everyhing.
The women are not to exercise authority or AUTHENTIA which means "self-authoring" as in modern songs and sermons.

The PURPOSE for silence was the one-piece pattern for the assembly. Saved always asks "made SAFE from what?"

1Tim. 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.


Word is Logos is truth is the Regulative Principle: excludes rhetoric, personal opinions, personal experiences, introductions, singing, playing instruments or acting.

All of keeping the women silent because many "just out of paganism" thought that if they "had a song" it must be from a God. Men are to be silent beyond the command to PREACH the word by READING the Word for comfort and doctrine. Sorry but that will not supply wages beyond GOING and teaching what Jesus commanded to be taught.

1Tim. 2:5 For there is one God,
and one mediator between God and men,
the MAN Christ Jesus;


Luke 10:22 All things are delivered to me of my Father:
and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father;
and who the Father is, but the Son,
and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Jesus has already commanded that the elders "teach that which HAS BEEN TAUGHT" and therefore many usurp authority over Jesus.

Men don't get that authority otherwise. I get to be in charge when my wife leaves for a few days to visit relatives. That puts me under the dog and cat. Jesus defined RULING as SERVING. A RULER IS A PROTECTOR.







Unfortunately, when you disagree or start asking question, you tend to get sermons that can be offensive or hurtful. We got the ole listening to "false teachers", after I sent some of Ken's work out. I don't want to speak evil of anyone, he may have been deceived himself. The preacher craft was around long before I was born, but there were voices crying out to remove it from the assembly long ago. There is schism in my family that wasn't there before and everything I say at home is being questioned. That shouldn't be tolerated by any parent or wife. If I am speaking truth, then must I keep it to myself? I've seen too many "coincidences", coming to fruition in the past few months, from we need 150k to add to the building to changing song structure. It seems things were sped up, when I started asking questions. I have asked the eldership to meet with me one more time, to let them show scripture where I am wrong. I ask for everyone's prayers that my mission will be successful.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 31st, 2016, 9:17 pm #9

God gave no man DOLE other than food or a living as they GO and obey the DIRECT COMMAND for evangelists. You have the same right to go teach or more right since you do not "eat up the living" of widows making long prayers which are HYMNS by the Greek definition.

Both men and women are bent on getting women into the pulpit rather than out of the pulpit: 1 Corinthians references Isaiah 33 says there will be no wise or Sophists, podiums or takers of shekals in the kingdom of Christ.

There is an organization called Gal328 proving that people are not able to read black text on white paper.

Gal. 3:28 There is NEITHER Jew nor Greek, there is NEITHER bond nor free,
there is NEITHER male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal. 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

The read that to say that YOU cannot prevent BOTH male and female from being CLERGY. However, they were just deluded into seeing NEITHER as BOTH.

Eph. 4:6 One God and FATHER of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all

Matt. 23:4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.
Matt. 23:5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments,
Matt. 23:6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues,
Matt. 23:7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi.
Matt. 23:8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
Matt. 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.


God is not our FATHER in the "hatching" sense although He ordained the laws of Generation. Father is:

<font>Pater Hence, patres = patricii
A. The father as head and resentative of the household,
the title given to the high-priest of Mithras,” Of the founder of a school:
of a teacher, as a source or creator
: Isocrates pater eloquentiae,”

pa^tēr author of songs IV. metaph., father, author, “aoidan p . . . euainētos orpheus” their own tou logou p


Preachers are now calling themselves the authoritative teachers or Fathers.

It is a fact: preachers are always threatened even by simple questions because they are not prepared to give an answer. If we become a School of the Word as Scripture notes then you can always discuss without having to make everything into a dogma

</font>
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on March 31st, 2016, 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: February 11th, 2016, 11:16 pm

March 31st, 2016, 10:01 pm #10

Did the preacher who spoke of wives obedience to their husband discuss "Husbands love your wives"?

Did he discuss husband should not provoke the wife to wrath, even as fathers might children? Ephesians 6:4.

Did he discuss that man and woman are "of the same flesh"? Ephesians 5:31.

He could point out that Paul discusses both side of every relationship, husbands and wives, fathers and children, and slaves and masters. Notice that mothers and children are not discussed in the passage, and that is odd is that the primary relationship in the family is mother with child.

Did he mention that Ephesians was written during a patriarchal society, such as Rome? How would the passage be applied today?


He did present from the wives perspective on 2 that I can remember. He did talk about loving the wife, beyond that I hesitate to state, as these sermons don't stick with me for very long. My husband and I discussed the use of so many sermons on the marriage topic, hence my recall on that. If I'm supposed to be in submission, then he can take the financial burden off me., and start paying the bills himself.Ha ha I do recall earlier sermons teaching that we are to compliment one another. This was awhile ago, longer than the 4 month period I am speaking of. He definitely has had some great lessons, he is very likable and quite charismatic. He would make a great evangelist.
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