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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:14 am #1

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:19 am #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Many sympathizers and disciples of the change agents, including Dave and Fred, refuse to see and understand the destructive and divisive activities and schemes of their leaders. They give credit to them as the ones who "love the Lord's church" despite their efforts to subvert, pervert, transform, divide the body of Christ. And the ones who MARK them that cause division in the church are being condemned by mechanical music lovers (Dave and Fred) as "sinners." Last time I checked it was the omniscient God [not Dave or Fred] who made that determination (of "who sins")!!!

Let's get back to the crux of the whole matter. The cause of the change agents operating in the brotherhood may be weakening, but I believe that they are still actively committed to:[/color]
<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Restructuring church organization;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Women leading men in the church -- new role of women;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Altering the meaning and purpose of baptism;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Expanding the Lord's Supper as being also a fellowship meal/brunch;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Extending "church" fellowship with those outside of the church;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Accepting membership from any denomination without the NT way;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ridiculing their Restoration heritage and rewriting its history;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Emulating "worship style" and programming made for TV;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Incorporating psychology and philosophy into church programs;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Using denominational sources and materials in "Bible studies";[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Inviting denominational speakers and lecturers to the congregation;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Holding mixed services and gatherings with denominational groups;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]De-emphasizing pure biblical studies;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Regressing from New Testament teachings to OT law and observances;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Digressing from worship in spirit and truth to mechanical music;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]etc., etc., etc. [/color]</li>[/list]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Too bad, sad and unfortunate that Dave and Fred are not concerned about how destructive are the agenda and schemes of the change agents. These activities and schemes are SINFUL!!! Marking the dividers and sowers of discord is NOT SINFUL. The Scripture teaches it![/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 8:19 am #3

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (I Cor. 1:10).

Any "lawful" elder would understand that to mean "speak that which is written for our learning with one mind and one mouth.



(2) "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).

The doctrine they heard is that the ELDERS are commanded to teach that which has been taught and SILENCE those who refuse. The Madison elders are SELF or PEER selected and are false teachers. Paul warned about WOLVES among the elders which points to letting those gender-compromised praise howlers into the flock when Paul condemned it (Phil 3)

Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on May 26th, 2011, 8:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 26th, 2011, 8:40 am #4

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Many sympathizers and disciples of the change agents, including Dave and Fred, refuse to see and understand the destructive and divisive activities and schemes of their leaders. They give credit to them as the ones who "love the Lord's church" despite their efforts to subvert, pervert, transform, divide the body of Christ. And the ones who MARK them that cause division in the church are being condemned by mechanical music lovers (Dave and Fred) as "sinners." Last time I checked it was the omniscient God [not Dave or Fred] who made that determination (of "who sins")!!!

Let's get back to the crux of the whole matter. The cause of the change agents operating in the brotherhood may be weakening, but I believe that they are still actively committed to:[/color]
<ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Restructuring church organization;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Women leading men in the church -- new role of women;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Altering the meaning and purpose of baptism;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Expanding the Lord's Supper as being also a fellowship meal/brunch;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Extending "church" fellowship with those outside of the church;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Accepting membership from any denomination without the NT way;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ridiculing their Restoration heritage and rewriting its history;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Emulating "worship style" and programming made for TV;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Incorporating psychology and philosophy into church programs;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Using denominational sources and materials in "Bible studies";[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Inviting denominational speakers and lecturers to the congregation;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Holding mixed services and gatherings with denominational groups;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]De-emphasizing pure biblical studies;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Regressing from New Testament teachings to OT law and observances;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Digressing from worship in spirit and truth to mechanical music;[/color]
</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]etc., etc., etc. [/color]</li>[/list]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Too bad, sad and unfortunate that Dave and Fred are not concerned about how destructive are the agenda and schemes of the change agents. These activities and schemes are SINFUL!!! Marking the dividers and sowers of discord is NOT SINFUL. The Scripture teaches it![/color]
"Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment" (I Cor. 1:10).

Any "lawful" elder would understand that to mean "speak that which is written for our learning with one mind and one mouth.




(2) "Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them" (Rom. 16:17).

The doctrine they heard is that the ELDERS are commanded to teach that which has been taught and SILENCE those who refuse. The Madison elders are SELF or PEER selected and are false teachers. Paul warned about WOLVES among the elders which points to letting those gender-compromised praise howlers into the flock when Paul condemned it (Phil 3)

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Like
Share

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 26th, 2011, 9:08 am #5

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
"In another thread, Donnie recently posted "Please STOP" all the personal attacks."

*************************************************************

Dr. Crump, did you know the moderator (Donnie) made the request to stop the personal attacks in THIS thread? It was in the first post of THIS thread. Some 90+ posts have happened since he made the request. Did you really not know that? Perhaps a review of the header post in THIS thread is in order. Let's support the moderator's request.

==========================

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This post caused the extreme width in the thread: "NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?"

The line of asterisks was reduced from this:[/color]

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*************************************************

TO this:

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Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on May 26th, 2011, 9:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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