TESTING PAGE WIDTH and IMAGES (#2) -- Please Do Not Respond

TESTING PAGE WIDTH and IMAGES (#2) -- Please Do Not Respond

Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:24 am #1

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:25 am #2

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Many sympathizers and disciples of the change agents, including Dave and Fred, refuse to see and understand the destructive and divisive activities and schemes of their leaders. They give credit to them as the ones who "love the Lord's church" despite their efforts to subvert, pervert, transform, divide the body of Christ. And the ones who MARK them that cause division in the church are being condemned by mechanical music lovers (Dave and Fred) as "sinners." Last time I checked it was the omniscient God [not Dave or Fred] who made that determination (of "who sins")!!! Let's get back to the crux of the whole matter. The cause of the change agents operating in the brotherhood may be weakening, but I believe that they are still actively committed to:[/color] <ol>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Restructuring church organization;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Women leading men in the church -- new role of women;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Altering the meaning and purpose of baptism;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Expanding the Lord's Supper as being also a fellowship meal/brunch;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Extending "church" fellowship with those outside of the church;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Accepting membership from any denomination without the NT way;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Ridiculing their Restoration heritage and rewriting its history;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Emulating "worship style" and programming made for TV;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Incorporating psychology and philosophy into church programs;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Using denominational sources and materials in "Bible studies";[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Inviting denominational speakers and lecturers to the congregation;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Holding mixed services and gatherings with denominational groups;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]De-emphasizing pure biblical studies;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Regressing from New Testament teachings to OT law and observances;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Digressing from worship in spirit and truth to mechanical music;[/color] </li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]etc., etc., etc. [/color]</li>[/list][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Too bad, sad and unfortunate that Dave and Fred are not concerned about how destructive are the agenda and schemes of the change agents. These activities and schemes are SINFUL!!! Marking the dividers and sowers of discord is NOT SINFUL. The Scripture teaches it![/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:35 am #3


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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:38 am #4

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
It may be asking too much for people who have been patterned by sermons as opposed to the text and singing songs calculated to turn you into to women to understand.,

I know of no scholar or preacher who can read the black text on white paper and NOT see what they have always been taught:



Maybe someone would like to twist that?
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:40 am #5

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:43 am #6

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]I was very seriously and sincerely asking you those questions for clarification. You'd been accusing me of misquoting your stance on using musical instruments in the assembly of saints.

You'd gone so far as calling me a liar and as a result, sinning, sinning "against the Lord's church" and in need of repentance; cursed; etc. -- strongly suggesting that YOU were/are not any of the above.

You may be correct that after all the messages you've posted, I have misunderstood your viewpoints--maybe one or two or possibly all of your opinions. That's why I have broken down my questions so that I may know exactly where I have misunderstood you. Let me point out--and I believe it's common knowledge--that when Peter misunderstands Paul, it doesn't mean that Peter is a liar, or vice versa. It is only a misunderstanding; it is not lying.

It is possible that I have misunderstood your viewpoints. So, I need you to help me out here. If you need to qualify your choice of YES or NO, please do not hesitate to explain in detail if needed. You can straighten me out with a simple YES [it is truth] or NO [it is a lie] to each of the following:

[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that God approves/authorizes IM;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that God is pleased with musical devices in praise;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that we emulate David for playing instruments;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that PA equates with IM, therefore, both are OK;
[YES/NO] ____ when YOU said that "a cappella" is only a tradition. [/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:46 am #7

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
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Ken Sublet
Ken Sublet

May 22nd, 2011, 7:48 am #8

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
People who quote proof-texts are out to deceive you: and since TIME IS SHORT even preachers and scholars are joining the merry band:



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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:50 am #9

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
    </li>
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
The "Love" weapon is a last resort for those who know that they have a short time to serve their master: Apollo lumped instruments and making love.

Matt. 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately,
saying, Tell us, when shall these things be?
and what shall be the sign of thy coming,
and of the end of the world?

Matt. 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them,
Take heed that no man deceive you.

plan-sis , es,
A. making to wander : dispersing, scattering, tn nen Th.8.42.
2. metaph., misleading,
2. wander in speaking, p. en t log Hdt.2.115; digress, p. apo tou logou Pl.Plt.263a.
6. in forensic Rhet., khrmata peplanmena, metathesis pep., of alternative pleas, Hermog. Stat.3.
7. to be misled, hupo phns koinottos Phld.Sign.7; tais homnumiais ib.36.

phn-e , (phn)
A. produce a sound or tone:
4. of a musical instrument, sound, E.Or.146 (lyr.); of sounds, hdu phnein sound sweetly, Plu.2.1021b; but bront ph. it has a voice, is significant, X.Ap.12.

4. of sounds made by inanimate objects, mostly Poet., kerkidos ph. S.Fr.595; suriggn (flute) E.Tr.127 (lyr.); auln Mnesim.4.56 (anap.); rare in early Prose, organn phnai Pl.R.397a; freq. in LXX, h ph. ts salpiggos LXX Ex.20.18; ph. bronts ib. Ps.103(104).7; h ph. autou hs ph. hudatn polln Apoc.1.15.

These are the musical weapons of Apollo, Abaddon or Apollo: He was the father of harmony including plucking the bow string, plucking his harp string or plucking with LOVE ARROWS.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

May 22nd, 2011, 7:52 am #10

NOT Using Musical Instruments in the Assembly: Is It a Human Tradition?

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]This thread is being addressed to IM lovers. I am thinking specifically of Dave who has constantly endorsed and defended the use of musical devices in the assembly of saints. [BTW, Dave, will you allow me to reveal to CM readers your last name? I do not recall you ever mentioning your last name here as you did at the other site (which I would not label as "evil"). I think that you mentioned your last name briefly at the other site only when you challenged Mike to a debate. I could say more about that challenge, etc., but that's really not about this thread. And you edited it out shortly after.]

In many of our discussions with you regarding IM, you never fail to mention that "not using" musical instruments in the gathering of saints is a human or man-made tradition in the church. [By now I hope that you are convinced that "in the church" means "in the church of Christ" that you claim to be a member of.]

Whenever I mention to you that the worship of "the Virgin Mary, Mother of God" is a good example of man-made traditions, you immediately dismiss it in defense of IM as being commanded and authorized by God, as well as being pleasing to Him.

We have just heard of the beatification of the RCC pope John Paul II. (There are so many doctrinal errors in Roman Catholicism. I strongly believe that based on what the Holy Scripture teaches. What about you? Anyway, when time allows, there will be a lot of discussions in the future regarding these errors.)

Just to name a few from a long list of Catholic heresies and "human traditions," here they are:[/color]
  • Prayers for the dead
    </li>
  • Wax candles introduced in church in the 4th century
    </li>
  • Veneration of angels and dead saints
    </li>
  • Worship of Mary, "Mother of God"
    </li>
  • Prayers directed to Mary or dead saints
    </li>
  • Extreme Unction
    </li>
  • Doctrine of Purgatory in the 6th century
    </li>
  • Worship of the cross, images and relics
    </li>
  • Canonization of dead saints
    </li>
  • ... and so many, many more
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[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is apparent that the Roman Catholic Church has evolved through the centuries because of the evolution of these man-made traditions. Unlike in the very early centuries, the church that Christ established in about 33AD does not now resemble at all the ever-evolving Roman Catholic Church.

My point is that man-made traditions, including the ones listed above, which were of PAGAN origins, are matters that man-made tradition believers do and observe, instead of what these believers DO NOT DO NOR OBSERVE.

Do you see my point? How can you assert that by "NOT DOING, NOT OBSERVING, something," it is a tradition?

Instead, using musical instruments in the assembly of saints is THE man-made tradition. Recorded history reveals it.[/color]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Let us discuss civilly, please. No name-calling, no grammatical concerns, no personal attacks, no hostile remarks. Thanks!
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]He defends his "young" brother (Dave) and his "words of truth" -- regardless -- even though Dave is incapable of citing a single passage of scripture [because there is NONE] to support his stance on the use of musical machines in the assembly of saints.[/color]

    </li>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]He affirms Dave's ideation that NOT USING musical devices in the assembly, rather than rather PLAYING, is the tradition (i.e., human or man-made). It makes no sense. It's like saying that: [/color]

    <ol>
  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"a third-world barrio that does not play American football at all" is the tradition; but...[/color]

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  • [color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]"a U.S. city with two teams that play football every Saturday afternoon, rain or shine" is NOT a tradition.[/color]
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</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]He needs to take the piano with him whether he goes so that when he worships and praises God, he has the instrument readily accessible and playable.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Dave is not blind; Fred is not blind; one of them does not lead the other. Of course, not. The difference is that Dave's congregation, contrary to Dave's belief, is NON-INSTRUMENTAL ... whereas Fred's congregation is on its way to deviating from the mainstream church of Christ by using musical objects in its assembly. Hopefully, Fred will be bold enough to add his congregation to the list of churches that are now Community Churches or associated with the Christian Church denomination.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]It is very doubtful that Fred really "luvs" Dr. Crump. Dave has already condemned this "evil" website and its conservative posters.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]In so far as "doctrinal error" is concerned, Dave and Fred, by all means, should stay away from that until they both have scriptural evidence that God has ever commanded, authorized or approved or has ever been pleased with the use of inanimate, lifeless musical inventions of man.[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Fred has already determined someone else's destination who does not agree with him and Dave [no need to figure out what they're thinking].[/color]

</li>[*][color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Fred is offering God's love and mercy to others if they change from right to wrong.[/color]</li>[/list]
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