Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 13th, 2010, 9:22 pm #11

The "change agents" in the brotherhood HATE John Waddey. Yes, they're still hating him, and we're still using him as a strong defender of the truth, the faith and the church.

If you're interested in learning more about the change agents and their subtle schemes and activities to demean and marginalize the body of Christ ["in the name of Christ" of all things], you will find many of his articles that reveal the true behavior of the change agents [whom you admire and respect and of whom you are a follower and a disciple] at this link:


Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on November 15th, 2010, 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 13th, 2010, 10:09 pm #12

I gather that if John Waddey were a scientist who found a cure for all forms of cancer or if he were an astronomer who discovered a giant asteroid on a collision course with earth, Sonny would tell everybody to disregard anything that Waddey said, because of Sonny's on-going bias against Waddey [...]. On the basis of that same on-going bias, Sonny apparently has chosen to deny all the truth that Waddey has written regarding the unscriptural "doctrines" of today's postmodern change agents in the Church. Thank goodness we have no on-going bias against the apostle Paul because he at one time had hauled Christians to prison where they suffered torture and death at the hands of Roman soldiers.
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on November 15th, 2010, 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Sonny
Sonny

November 13th, 2010, 10:56 pm #13

The "change agents" in the brotherhood HATE John Waddey. Yes, they're still hating him, and we're still using him as a strong defender of the truth, the faith and the church.

If you're interested in learning more about the change agents and their subtle schemes and activities to demean and marginalize the body of Christ ["in the name of Christ" of all things], you will find many of his articles that reveal the true behavior of the change agents [whom you admire and respect and of whom you are a follower and a disciple] at this link:


I will not speak for others but I do not hate Brother Waddey.

It is not a matter of hate for me but honor.

He has not preached much less LIVED "the truth".

I could list facts of YEARS and MANY DETAILS but you would completely edit and distort.

Years (...) the past is the past.

The sad thing now is a lack of contrition and walking humbly with God.

Now he does not love and show mercy to others.

[. . .]

Yet, he is adamant against people [...] because of worship differences like hand clapping and number of song leaders.

He does not preach the truth but his opinions.

For example, the Bible does not specify 1 song leader or 3 or 4 or none.

I could list dozen of examples but that is not the point.

The point is it's o.k. to have and share opinions as long as it isn't to divide Christians.

We are to live the truth first, then stand for it and preach it.

We are not to preach and promote dogma.

We are not to preach but not live for Christ.

We are to honor Christ and bring others to Christ.

-Sonny
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on November 15th, 2010, 8:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dave
Dave

November 14th, 2010, 4:59 am #14

Still using John Waddey?
If any man has shown hatred towards other brethren, it is John Waddey. This whole site reeks of his attitude. Pharisee type.......they don't talk about love and helping those who need help and the love of Christ. They're after making sure that their traditions continue to be their idols. They hold up a tradition higher than do the Love of Christ.
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

November 30th, 2010, 9:17 am #15

http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/5-13.htm

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.



=====================================

UPDATE: 11/13/2010

This is truly an excellent title that speaks volumes about a group of agents in the church -- how to deal with a JOKER: change agent at your local church. It is certainly an attention-getter.

There has been a bit of confusion as to who the change agents really are; how to identify these individuals and associate them with their destructive and damaging activities in the church. Some of their ardent supporters and disciples even go so far in asserting that Jesus Christ himself was the greatest change agent of all or that the great men of the Restoration Movement were change agents during their time and, therefore, can be equated to the "change agents" of the last few decades.

We need to rectify that misconception.

We'll be constantly updating and adding messages to this thread -- which will be ongoing for a while -- so as to continually provide information regarding the change agents operating in the brotherhood. We will be discussing the following from:

  • Simplified Process of Transitioning an Established Church
    </li>
  • Another Method: How to Transition an Established Church
    </li>
  • Prominent Change Agents in the Church of Christ -- Their Unique Behavior Pattern
    </li>
  • What Are Change Agents?
    </li>
  • Who Are Change Agents?
    </li>
  • What Are Some Characteristics of "Change Agents" (As They Attempt to Present Themselves As Theologians Who Have Discovered New Truths)?
    </li>
  • Change Agents Operate on Faulty Assumptions: John Waddey Avers
    </li>
  • Change Agents Are Committed to Change the Church of Christ
    </li>
  • Evaluation of the Change Package Implemented in the Transitioning Church of Christ
    </li>
  • Agents Advocating Change: Their Objectives and Activities
    </li>
  • Criticism for Efforts of the Past: Exaggerated and Encouraged
    </li>
  • Community Church: Model for Church of Christ in Transition
    </li>
  • Modernize the Church: The Secular- or Culture-Driven Approach
    </li>
  • Bible Translation & Other Sources: New Testament Principles Devalued
    </li>
  • Church Leadership, Organization, Government: Experimentation
    </li>
  • Worship: The Trending "Musical" Worship Content and Casualness
    </li>
  • The Lord's Supper and Social Fellowship -- More Than Just a Memorial
    </li>
  • Doctrines Derived from Denominations: Biblical Truth Being Perverted
    </li>
  • Holy Spirit and Spiritual Gifts: Teachings Imitated by the Change Agents</li>
[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]WHAT ARE SOME CHARACTERISTICS OF "CHANGE AGENTS" (AS THEY ATTEMPT TO PRESENT THEMSELVES AS THEOLOGIANS WHO HAVE DISCOVERED NEW TRUTHS)?[/color]

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Change Agents Operate on Faulty Assumptions, John Waddey avers:[/color]

<ol>[*]That they have discovered a more spiritual kind of religion now than before.
</li>[*]That only they know, understand and appreciate the grace of God.
</li>[*]That only they understand the blessings/benefits of the Holy Spirit's indwelling.
</li>[*]That our concept is "restoration" of a specific congregation from 1st century.
</li>[*]That they have discovered a new and superior approach to Bible interpretation.
<ol>[*]With that they claim to have found the true nature of the church.
</li>[*]In reality, it is the old, emotion-based, subjective approach of Protestantism.
</li>[*]Their Bible is a story book, serving only as a source for quotes for sermons, but not for regulating/guiding the faith, worship & practice of the church.</li>[/list]</li>[*]That we are only interested in the doctrines and practices of the church.
</li>[*]That we are not truly dedicated to Christ and trying to be like him -- they are.
</li>[*]That we are narrow, bigoted, and legalistic -- they're not.
</li>[*]That we claim that we are a perfect church. (Do you claim that?)
</li>[*]That we claim that we have attained complete compliance with every aspect of Christ's will for us. (Do you claim that?)
</li>[*]That we have misunderstood the way men are to be saved.
</li>[*]That we should be labeled "traditionalists" for our unwillingness to change:
<ol>[*]When the truth is this: it is not change that we reject; rather, we reject unlawful departure from God's authorized Word and way.
</li>[*]When we are willing to change non-essentials (NOT substance or nature), as:
<ol>[*]The hour, the length or the order of services
</li>[*]Trying new songs or new hymnals
</li>[*]Considering different methods of observing a communion service
</li>[*]Accepting names for the church as long as they are all biblical without dismissing or discrediting the name of Christ, its head</li>[/list]</li>[*]When we do not consider "apostolic" traditions such "other" traditions as:
<ol>[*]A tradition of a one hour worship service -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that calls for half hour sermons -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that expects a preacher to wear a coat and tie -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that we wear shoes to church -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that our meeting houses are built accordingly -- that can change</li>[/list]</li>[/list]</li>[*]That they can promote their changes without making one realize that TO DO SO:
<ol>[*]The concept of restoring the original New Testament church is abandoned.
</li>[*]The changes advocated were not a part of the original church.
</li>[*]Ties are severed with those noble saints who went before us. The faith and preaching of those predecessors would be incompatible with the advocates of change ... like oil and water they would not mix
</li>[*]Changes proposed will make the congregation one of 1200 denominations.
</li>[*]You are alienated/out of fellowship with simple Christians -- churches of Christ.
</li>[*]The faith once delivered to the saints is abandoned.
</li>[*]Participation in causing division in the body of Christ is a fearful thought.</li>[/list]
</li>[/list]
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

November 30th, 2010, 2:22 pm #16

If any man has shown hatred towards other brethren, it is John Waddey. This whole site reeks of his attitude. Pharisee type.......they don't talk about love and helping those who need help and the love of Christ. They're after making sure that their traditions continue to be their idols. They hold up a tradition higher than do the Love of Christ.
Sarcastic Dave strikes again. Yeah, he's certainly the one to talk about "love" when all he can do is post slander, insults, and sarcasm.

Years ago an obnoxious poster referred to Waddey as "Waddley." If posters like Dave and that other guy can do is offer sarcasm, that's neither love nor a desire to teach the Gospel.
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Donnie
Donnie

December 3rd, 2010, 5:52 pm #17

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]WHAT ARE SOME CHARACTERISTICS OF "CHANGE AGENTS" (AS THEY ATTEMPT TO PRESENT THEMSELVES AS THEOLOGIANS WHO HAVE DISCOVERED NEW TRUTHS)?[/color]

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Change Agents Operate on Faulty Assumptions, John Waddey avers:[/color]

<ol>[*]That they have discovered a more spiritual kind of religion now than before.
</li>[*]That only they know, understand and appreciate the grace of God.
</li>[*]That only they understand the blessings/benefits of the Holy Spirit's indwelling.
</li>[*]That our concept is "restoration" of a specific congregation from 1st century.
</li>[*]That they have discovered a new and superior approach to Bible interpretation.
<ol>[*]With that they claim to have found the true nature of the church.
</li>[*]In reality, it is the old, emotion-based, subjective approach of Protestantism.
</li>[*]Their Bible is a story book, serving only as a source for quotes for sermons, but not for regulating/guiding the faith, worship & practice of the church.</li>[/list]</li>[*]That we are only interested in the doctrines and practices of the church.
</li>[*]That we are not truly dedicated to Christ and trying to be like him -- they are.
</li>[*]That we are narrow, bigoted, and legalistic -- they're not.
</li>[*]That we claim that we are a perfect church. (Do you claim that?)
</li>[*]That we claim that we have attained complete compliance with every aspect of Christ's will for us. (Do you claim that?)
</li>[*]That we have misunderstood the way men are to be saved.
</li>[*]That we should be labeled "traditionalists" for our unwillingness to change:
<ol>[*]When the truth is this: it is not change that we reject; rather, we reject unlawful departure from God's authorized Word and way.
</li>[*]When we are willing to change non-essentials (NOT substance or nature), as:
<ol>[*]The hour, the length or the order of services
</li>[*]Trying new songs or new hymnals
</li>[*]Considering different methods of observing a communion service
</li>[*]Accepting names for the church as long as they are all biblical without dismissing or discrediting the name of Christ, its head</li>[/list]</li>[*]When we do not consider "apostolic" traditions such "other" traditions as:
<ol>[*]A tradition of a one hour worship service -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that calls for half hour sermons -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that expects a preacher to wear a coat and tie -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that we wear shoes to church -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that our meeting houses are built accordingly -- that can change</li>[/list]</li>[/list]</li>[*]That they can promote their changes without making one realize that TO DO SO:
<ol>[*]The concept of restoring the original New Testament church is abandoned.
</li>[*]The changes advocated were not a part of the original church.
</li>[*]Ties are severed with those noble saints who went before us. The faith and preaching of those predecessors would be incompatible with the advocates of change ... like oil and water they would not mix
</li>[*]Changes proposed will make the congregation one of 1200 denominations.
</li>[*]You are alienated/out of fellowship with simple Christians -- churches of Christ.
</li>[*]The faith once delivered to the saints is abandoned.
</li>[*]Participation in causing division in the body of Christ is a fearful thought.</li>[/list]
</li>[/list]
[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]The change agents and their followers are very smart. They are smart by deviating from an honest discussion of the turmoil, strife and division that they effect in the church. They are smart by using their usual defense mechanism that the mainstream/mainline church of Christ is causing the division by not accepting the changes being promoted and enforced by the change agents upon peaceful congregations.

The big question is: Just who is doing the intrusion and interference?

The truth is that the peaceful congregations, when left alone by the intruders and subverters, will remain peaceful and united.

The change agents are smart (actually "slick") in accusing the unyielding congregation to their promotion of the instrumental music agenda as being OPPOSED TO ANY CHANGES. And more specifically: being OPPOSED TO CHANGE IN WORSHIP STYLE. That is false -- a fat lie.

Change in worship style? The change agents are slick by referring to it as worship style, rather than worship content. Here's the difference:

1. Worship style is more associated with human traditions, e.g., the length of the sermon, the time of the assembly, the length of the assembly, new hymns or new hymnals, wearing shoes to the assembly [can go barefooted], place of gathering, etc. As indicated in the above post, any of the changes can be made to the satisfaction of the congregants.

2. Worship content is more associated with Christ's teachings and APOSTOLIC TRADITIONS, e.g., observance of the Lord's Supper (elements and frequency), teaching and admonishing one another in speaking or singing, etc. These do not and can not change.

Clearly, the entire Bible (Old and New Testaments) does not indicate that God has ever directed His followers to worship Him with the noise of lifeless, inanimate musical objects. NONE!!! Even though both "men of God" and the pagans practice musical idolatry. The common argument is that "singing to worship God" still remains even "with the use of musical devices." That argument is very weak and fallacious in that "prayer to God" still remains even "with the practice of prayer to and veneration of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God."

The change agents and their ardent followers should have a better alternative than to subvert, divert and divide congregations and deviate from and pervert God's truth and the apostolic teachings:

1. LEAVE PEACEFUL CONGREGATIONS ALONE.
2. JOIN THE DENOMINATION OF YOUR CHOICE -- esp. one with IM practices.
3. START your own CHURCH FROM SCRATCH.[/color]
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Sonny
Sonny

December 4th, 2010, 12:00 am #18

Ephesians 4:3 says to make every effort to maintain the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Romans 14:19 says to work for peace and mutual edification.

But the answer to peace is not separate churches, as Ephesians 4 says there is one body. Thus, Christians with diversity are to be part of the one body and work together. When the bible mentions loving others it isn't just those like us or those easy to love.

If the church leadership decides to offer two service times on Sunday morning out of convenience (some work but could make an early service), logistics (not all can fit in the auditorium at once), or to promote unity in diversity (one service is more traditional and one more contemporary) then all are fine. But not that anyone from any group needs to hit the door. If any "change agents" say that members at the church need to leave they are wrong. If any "change agent resistors" say that the perceived "change agents" (whatever that criteria is) need to leave they are equally wrong.

Churches are not to split over an adultery, a divorce, a gossip, a drunk, a handclapper, a handraiser, a non-handclapper, a preacher's personality, a personality conflict, disagreeing with a preacher or elder, the acappella-instrumental debate, bible translations, fellowship halls/buildings, a waterfountain, the preacher sinned, the preacher did not visit everyone they should have, the elders made a decision I did not like, I am resigning as an elder because someone says I should (regardless), I disagree with the color of the carpet, something different happened in worship (including instead of having a Scripture read by one person to the church the entire group read it in unison off the screen), disagreeing about the age of accountability, political differences, disagreeing about whether the church should pay a secretary or janitor or for lawn maintenance or whatever, the elders decision about a portion of the contribution........ blah blah blah - - - Because of all of our proof-texting, NONE of us is going to agree with everything. Truth includes acting with love, grace, patience and humility (I may be wrong on a given matter of disagreement) toward my brothers and sisters. This includes more liberal thinkers toward more conservative thinkers. Jesus loves and died for conservatives, liberals, democrats and republicans. One can be a Christian and vote republican. One can be a Christian and be an Independent. (Was this dangerous throwing politics into the mix?)

We aren't to divorce our spouse because we have a different opinion, and we aren't to split a church apart over a difference in opinion. The one church is the bride of Christ.

-Sonny
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 5th, 2010, 5:04 am #19

[color=#0000FF" size="3" face="times]Sonny,

I think you completely missed the difference between: (a) changing worship style and (b) changing worship content. With the exception of operating mechanical music in "worship," which is a man-made addition to teaching and admonishing via singing, all the items you mentioned are non-essentials that do not alter God's specifications.

A number of examples of non-affecting items or components in "worship" was listed in the above article: "Change Agents Operate on Faulty Assumptions" (cf. 12.1; 12.2; 12.3). They include time of the assembly, length of the assembly, new hymnals, new songs, meeting place and its location, indoor toilet, kitchen sink, etc. You've added a few more: a drunk, a gossip, carpet color, blah-blah-blah.

I agree with you completely that none of the non-affecting components in "worship" or non-worship should cause division in the church.

I must contend, however, that the "change agents" are the ones who introduce the operation of mechanical music to peaceful congregations that do not already have musical idolatry in their assemblies, but are happy with their congregational singing without the use of tambourines, trumpets, dulcimer, sackbut (Daniel 3), the flute, harp, organ, etc.

Sonny, let's be honest here. Do you think that change agents would interfere and intrude upon churches that already operate those inanimate, lifeless musical objects in their assemblies? I think not.

As you and I know, the Christian Churches/Disciples of Christ, along with many Protestant denominations already use musical devices in their assemblies.

As you and I know also, churches of Christ (including thousands and thousands of congregations worldwide) simply do not use these musical objects in the assembly. The few that do have either associated with the Christian Church or affiliated themselves with Community Churches.

Let me remind you again: that for the change agents, the intrusion must occur in congregations of the Lord's church that do not use instrumental music.

Therefore, based on the fact that division is inevitable when IM is implemented in a peaceful, united congregation, following these principles should avert strife and division:


1. LEAVE PEACEFUL CONGREGATIONS ALONE.
2. JOIN THE DENOMINATION OF YOUR CHOICE -- esp. one with IM practices.
3. START your own CHURCH FROM SCRATCH.


This is speaking to CHANGE AGENTS operating in the brotherhood, not to regular members of the church.[/color]
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Joined: January 2nd, 2005, 6:45 am

December 6th, 2010, 7:38 am #20

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]WHAT ARE SOME CHARACTERISTICS OF "CHANGE AGENTS" (AS THEY ATTEMPT TO PRESENT THEMSELVES AS THEOLOGIANS WHO HAVE DISCOVERED NEW TRUTHS)?[/color]

[color=#0000FF" size="4" face="times]Change Agents Operate on Faulty Assumptions, John Waddey avers:[/color]

<ol>[*]That they have discovered a more spiritual kind of religion now than before.
</li>[*]That only they know, understand and appreciate the grace of God.
</li>[*]That only they understand the blessings/benefits of the Holy Spirit's indwelling.
</li>[*]That our concept is "restoration" of a specific congregation from 1st century.
</li>[*]That they have discovered a new and superior approach to Bible interpretation.
<ol>[*]With that they claim to have found the true nature of the church.
</li>[*]In reality, it is the old, emotion-based, subjective approach of Protestantism.
</li>[*]Their Bible is a story book, serving only as a source for quotes for sermons, but not for regulating/guiding the faith, worship & practice of the church.</li>[/list]</li>[*]That we are only interested in the doctrines and practices of the church.
</li>[*]That we are not truly dedicated to Christ and trying to be like him -- they are.
</li>[*]That we are narrow, bigoted, and legalistic -- they're not.
</li>[*]That we claim that we are a perfect church. (Do you claim that?)
</li>[*]That we claim that we have attained complete compliance with every aspect of Christ's will for us. (Do you claim that?)
</li>[*]That we have misunderstood the way men are to be saved.
</li>[*]That we should be labeled "traditionalists" for our unwillingness to change:
<ol>[*]When the truth is this: it is not change that we reject; rather, we reject unlawful departure from God's authorized Word and way.
</li>[*]When we are willing to change non-essentials (NOT substance or nature), as:
<ol>[*]The hour, the length or the order of services
</li>[*]Trying new songs or new hymnals
</li>[*]Considering different methods of observing a communion service
</li>[*]Accepting names for the church as long as they are all biblical without dismissing or discrediting the name of Christ, its head</li>[/list]</li>[*]When we do not consider "apostolic" traditions such "other" traditions as:
<ol>[*]A tradition of a one hour worship service -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that calls for half hour sermons -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that expects a preacher to wear a coat and tie -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that we wear shoes to church -- that can change
</li>[*]A tradition that our meeting houses are built accordingly -- that can change</li>[/list]</li>[/list]</li>[*]That they can promote their changes without making one realize that TO DO SO:
<ol>[*]The concept of restoring the original New Testament church is abandoned.
</li>[*]The changes advocated were not a part of the original church.
</li>[*]Ties are severed with those noble saints who went before us. The faith and preaching of those predecessors would be incompatible with the advocates of change ... like oil and water they would not mix
</li>[*]Changes proposed will make the congregation one of 1200 denominations.
</li>[*]You are alienated/out of fellowship with simple Christians -- churches of Christ.
</li>[*]The faith once delivered to the saints is abandoned.
</li>[*]Participation in causing division in the body of Christ is a fearful thought.</li>[/list]
</li>[/list]
For further discussion, this post has been copied from this thread:
        "Venting Machine: Anger Emission Control."

Author: Fred Whaley (no login) 173.162.22.85
Post: "The Bottom Line" December 3 2010, 2:30 PM


===============================

Isaiah 64:6 states that all our righteousness is filthy rags. Romans 3:10 says no one is righteous. This includes Fred Dave Doctor Crump and D.C. (Donnie Cruz). The only difference is that Fred and Dave realize they are sinners saved by Jesus' blood and grace whether they use instruments or not. Both instrumental and non-instrumental worshippers will be saved by Jesus' blood and grace and not because of self-righteousness. 1 Corinthians 1:30 says Jesus is our wisdom righteousness holiness and redemption. 1:31 says let him who boasts boast in the Lord. Fred and Dave do not feel superior as acappella worshippers in the Church of Christ to instrumental worshippers in other churches. We also do not feel superior to other Christians within the Church of Christ because they also have a brain and also use their brain and have a different view on a spiritual matter. Fred and Dave believe in paying more attention to the camel than the gnat.

Fred Whaley

"If you are in the parking lot and have still not quit arguing with the people on the porch, you haven't left the Church of Christ yet."
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