SPEAKING psalms, hymns and Spiritual Odes

SPEAKING psalms, hymns and Spiritual Odes

Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 10th, 2012, 10:05 pm #1

I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 11th, 2012, 5:28 am #2



"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Matt.26:30

"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Mark 14:26

"Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery." - Psalm 81:2

"Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm." Psalm 98:5

Seems Like your "facts" are off by a couple of centuries. Did you make this up too?
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Joined: February 16th, 2012, 8:07 pm

March 11th, 2012, 6:13 am #3

I am starting a new thread because people are skeptical about defining Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Odes the as not defining "musical worship" when the assembly is clearly defined as a School of the Word of Christ in the Prophets and Apostles.

Greg: I have posted the "overkill" data on the meaning of Hymns. You can click on most of these links and go to the real literature to validate the fact that hymning was SPEAKING unless one adds SINGING and then a word for HYMN. Harps or Lyres are always excluded and flutes must be added to the words for hymning. There is no single word for singing and playing and the name of an instrument.

Being a disciple means I have no interest beyond reading the text and seeing what the words meant to the writers of the time.

I have posted some data on Speaking Psalms Hymns and Odes here.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.Psalms.Hy ... .Odes.html

Follow up question on the viewpoint of no command to sing...

What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?


They "hymned"" which has various meanings: here it means "reciting a form of the Law" and means to recite hymns which were types in the BOOK of Psalms. Like all such words it is without singing unless indicated, never means with a lyre and with a flute only when intending to create anxiety.

When Jesus and the apostles "hymned" the word is DICO or speak. There is no word which INCLUDES a musical instrument unless one commands to [1] hymn [2] WITH a named [3] instrument. Any simple simon would know how to command group singing WITH a musical instrument. To try to force the Spirit to give us aid and comfort for sowing discord and stopping the teaching-admonishing pattern would seem to be blasphemy. Jeremiah 23 has Christ defining saying something that God did not say is blasphemy.

Additionally, I Cor. 14:26 regarding orderly worship alludes to, and some versions actually use the word "sing" in part of what occurs when the church meets together. Is it too much of a stretch doctrinally to infer some idea or possible command of singing from these passages from example and direct inference? I know nothing of the Greek here. I don't want to bind a command to sing if there really isn't one, but want to look further at your position of singing not being required by God for the worship.

We have a historical record of the first introduction of singing (other than speaking psalms) as an ACT of liturgy in 373 long after Constantine began paying pagan priests to become clergy often without baptism.

Hymnody developed systematically, however, only after the emperor Constantine legalized Christianity (AD 313); and it flourished earliest in Syria, where the practice was possibly taken over from the singing by Gnostics and Manichaeans of hymns imitating the psalms. The Byzantine Church adopted the practice; in its liturgy, hymns maintain a much more prominent place than in the Latin liturgy; and Byzantine hymnody developed complex types such as the kanon and kontakion (qq.v.; see also Byzantine chant). Saint Ephraem--a 4th-century Mesopotamian deacon, poet, and hymnist--has been called the "father of Christian hymnody." Britannica Online

In the West, St. Hilary of Poitiers composed a book of hymn texts in about 360. Not much later St. Ambrose of Milan instituted the congregational singing of psalms and hymns, partly as a counter to the hymns of the Arians, who were in doctrinal conflict with orthodox Christianity. In poetic form (iambic octosyllables in four-line stanzas), these early hymns--apparently sung to simple, possibly folk melodies--derive from Christian Latin poetry of the period. By the late Middle Ages trained choirs had supplanted the congregation in the singing of hymns. Although new, often more ornate melodies were composed and many earlier melodies were elaborated, one syllable of text per note was usual. Some polyphonic hymn settings were used, usually in alternation with plainchants, and were particularly important in organ music.
<em>What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?</em>

The Greek word is "humneo", meaning "to sing the praise of", "sing hymns to", "to sing a hymn",or "to sing" (Strong's 5214), from "humnos" meaning "a song in the praise of gods, heroes, or conquerors","a sacred song",or "hymn". There is no doubt Paul and Silas were making vocal music. Whether we would recognize it as such 2000 years later is another matter. Melody and harmony as we know them didn't develop into their recognizable forms until well into the eleventh century.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 11th, 2012, 9:23 pm #4


"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Matt.26:30

"And when they had sung an hymn , they went out into the mount of Olives." - Mark 14:26

"Take a psalm, and bring hither the timbrel, the pleasant harp with the psaltery." - Psalm 81:2

"Sing unto the LORD with the harp; with the harp, and the voice of a psalm." Psalm 98:5

Seems Like your "facts" are off by a couple of centuries. Did you make this up too?
I forget? which of those involved congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment.

If they toss you in prison you can sing to your heart's content.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 16th, 2012, 4:50 pm #5

<em>What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?</em>

The Greek word is "humneo", meaning "to sing the praise of", "sing hymns to", "to sing a hymn",or "to sing" (Strong's 5214), from "humnos" meaning "a song in the praise of gods, heroes, or conquerors","a sacred song",or "hymn". There is no doubt Paul and Silas were making vocal music. Whether we would recognize it as such 2000 years later is another matter. Melody and harmony as we know them didn't develop into their recognizable forms until well into the eleventh century.
When one PRAYS it is nice to know WHAT is being prayed.
Hymns are PRAYERS: you can do silent prayer, you can pray OUT LOUD. The prisoners UNDERSTOOD the prayer. The prayer was one of the HYMNS which even children would have learned. Prayers in the Bible most often quote the text.

Hymns never include SINGING or PLAYING.
IF YOU SING a HYMN it takes two words. Sing is not in the text so the CONTENT of their prayers were HYMNS. If you want to tell someone to SING and then define a HYMN as the content it takes two words:

aoids humnos

Humnos means "without the flute" or "without the lyre."

We look for an example and when the writer intends that you SING A SONG he MUST use two words or a compound word:: there is no command, example or remote inference in the Bible that anyone SANG a HYMN. Remember that in Ephesians 5 the command is to SPEAK hymns. No one could accidentally make that SING HYMNS. The word SPEAK as LOGOS excludes poetry or music.

Homer, Odyssey 8:26: and do ye heat for the stranger a cauldron on the fire, and warm water, that when he has bathed and has seen well bestowed all the gifts which the noble Phaeacians have brought hither, he may take pleasure in the feast, and in hearing the strains of the song.

No one ever attributed anything but pleasure to music much like that of eating and drinking wine.

http://www.piney.com/DocHesWorks.html

Hesiod Works and Days:
Then I crossed over to Chalcis, to the games of wise Amphidamas where the sons of the great-hearted hero proclaimed and appointed prizes. And there I boast that I gained the victory with a song and carried off a handled tripod which I dedicated to the Muses of Helicon, in the place where they first set me in the way of clear song. [660] Such is all my experience of many-pegged ships; nevertheless I will tell you the will of Zeus who holds the aegis; for the Muses have taught me to sing in marvellous song.

If the writer wanted to ADD a musical instrument the expression is:

Humnoi ho kuris hu. pros kitharan deto [aeido] hesttn
Pro means 6. with the accompaniment of musical instruments, p. kalamon Pi.O.10(11).84; p. aulon or ton aulon, E.Alc.346, X.Smp.6.3, etc.; p. luran . . adein SIG662.13 (Delos, ii B. C.); p. rhuthmon embainein to step in time, D.S.5.34.


It is blaspheming the Spirit OF Christ and the intelligence of Paul to CLAIM that they were so illiterate that they could NOT demand the ACCOMPANIMENT of a harp if they wanted to say that.

The reason Paul puts the singing IN THE HEART is that EXTERNAL singing among the pagans who INCLUDED instruments sang like the modern "Praise Teams" just making "Jerky" and falsetto sounds:

Aeido of all kinds of vocal sounds, crow as cocks hoot as owls, croak as frogs, the Locust, twang, of the bow-string, whistle, of the wind through a tree, ring, of a stone when struck, to crow too soon.

When you want to SING to the LYRE the evidence is aeido pros [with the accompaniment of] aulone [flute] luran [harp] sing to a harp. That is, you match your voice to the sound of a single string twang.

The decent people never beat on the strings WHILE they were SPEAKING.

There is no such language in the Bible. These people are enemies of Christ and His Word which is FREE (Isaiah 55) and they are outlawed from SPEAKING THEIR OWN WORDS (Isaiah 58).
Last edited by Ken.Sublett on March 16th, 2012, 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 17th, 2012, 1:52 am #6


1Timothy 4:14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee,
....which was given thee by prophecy, [teaching]
....with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.
1Timothy 4:15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them;
....that thy profiting may appear to all.


Timothy had no more to do but to GIVE HEED to what he had been taught. Giving heed to the Word is the only way we non-mad people have of giving heed to God in Christ.

If Paul and the Spirit wanted to speak of musical melody the Greek is MELOS and never once PSALLO in any text: Psallo just means "pluck."

What Paul commanded Timothy to do as he commanded him to read the word publically, discuss any doctrinal content and COMFORT those who listened. The melody or grace IN THE HEART where harps dare not go is:

3191. meletao, mel-et-ah´-o; from a presumed derivative of 3199; to take care of, i.e. (by implication) revolve in the mind: imagine, (pre-)meditate.

Melet-a , tauta meleta 1 Ep.Ti.4.15; esp. practise speaking, con over a speech in one's mind, logaria dustna meletsas D.19.255; apologian Id.46.1; also, deliver, declaim (cf. 11.5 b), logous


I'm not against singing with or without instruments but Jesus asked "could you not tarry with me for one hour." The response in almost all churches is NO!

This collection of links to REAL literature is included in:

http://www.piney.com/Luke.17.Kingdom.No ... ation.html

Jesus said the Kingdom of God is WITHIN US and WILL NOT come with religious observation or "worship services." The Campbells tried really hard to restore the church as A School of Christ.



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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 18th, 2012, 9:07 pm #7

None of this is true or believable.
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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

March 18th, 2012, 10:25 pm #8

Singing is spelled SINGING

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Singing

SPEAKING is spelled SPEAKING

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speaking

Speaking is safe: singing will destroy your vocal cords: ask me.

http://askville.amazon.com/British-sing ... Id=1351524


"speaking employes gliding vowels....transistions from one to the next. Singing is phrased such that vowels are held longer (to the note) which more or less erases regional accents. In singing, vowels tend to sound more like their true sounds (monophthongs), rather than diphthongs.

From the National Center for Voice and Speech:

How come when people with a strong regional accent (i.e., Southern) or stuttering problem don't manifest it when they sing?

When people speak with an accent, they produce the vowel sounds differently than the person identifying them as having an accent. When singing, the vowels are prolonged and those differences are minimized.


SINGING GOBBLE UP ALL OF YOUR RATIONAL ATTENTION ABILITY AND IS PROCESSSED BY THE RIGHT OR EMOTIONAL HEMISPHERE. This was described on clay tablets.

Aristotle: Melody Deceives: "Poets also make use of this in inventing words, as a melody "without strings" or "without the lyre"; for they employ epithets from negations, a course which is approved in proportional metaphors..

The form of diction should be neither metrical nor without rhythm.

If it is metrical, it lacks persuasiveness, for it appears artificial, and at the same time it distracts the hearer's attention, since it sets him on the watch for the recurrence of such and such a cadence..

According to Philo, the gods of the pagans exploit this weakness of men. For the sake of a better effect, and with the intention of more easily cheating their devotes, that they have set their lies to melodies, rhythms and meters.."


That is the mark of failing to listen effectively in the bible and lots of recorded history. That's why God delivered His Spirit (breath, word) to the SON without METER. I know that is the correct rendering of METRON because there is no meter in the whole bible. If you obey the direect command to "speak that which is written" you CANNOT use meter. But because no one speaks that which is written in song or sermon they have been abandoned to their own self will.
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Anonymous
Anonymous

March 24th, 2012, 3:43 am #9

Is this why every time you don't get your way about something you have a "laded burden", whatever that might be? Sounds like a fancy term for temper tantrum. Grow up.
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Greg
Greg

March 27th, 2012, 9:57 pm #10

<em>What is the Greek word used in Acts 16:25 for "sang hymns"? Is that the singing we understand. If it is then Paul and Silas were singing and praying? And it had to have been out loud as "the prisoners were listening." I don't want to assume too much here but they are Apostles and "two or more were gathered." Wouldn't this event constitute a worship service with singing out loud as part of it?</em>

The Greek word is "humneo", meaning "to sing the praise of", "sing hymns to", "to sing a hymn",or "to sing" (Strong's 5214), from "humnos" meaning "a song in the praise of gods, heroes, or conquerors","a sacred song",or "hymn". There is no doubt Paul and Silas were making vocal music. Whether we would recognize it as such 2000 years later is another matter. Melody and harmony as we know them didn't develop into their recognizable forms until well into the eleventh century.
So is it your opinion that they were singing vocally together like we would think of singing? I understand there may not have been melody as such but singing nonetheless? Or is it possible they were more like what we would call "chanting" or "speaking" as Ken's seems to suggest?
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