Speaking In Tongues

Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 22nd, 2011, 3:22 am #21

Bill Crump asked "Has Ken ever said that he follows that book in place of the Bible?"


YES Bill, Ken has used Enoch to present it as inspired.
Several times.
No assumptions.

No, Dave, YOU need to know what YOU are talking about. I asked if Ken ever said that he followed the Book of Enoch in place of the Bible. My exact words were, "Has Ken ever said that he follows that book in place of the Bible?"

I've never seen Ken say that he takes Enoch over the Bible. Yet Dave puts words in Ken's mouth. If Ken thinks that the Book of Enoch is "inspired," does that mean he ditches the entire Bible for Enoch? Of course not, and Dave knows it--or he should. Dave is just out to argue, cause trouble, and be his usual OBNOXIOUS self. Shame and pity on poor Dave, who will say ANYTHING to smear those with whom he disagrees. Son, you've got to put your hate and animosity away.


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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 22nd, 2011, 3:29 am #22

I have never said it was inspired: I have said that someone has counted 128 places in the New Testament. I have found lots of them but not yet 128 times.

One version was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls and has long been considered as inspired as any of the Apocryphal books which were in the 'original KJV" they talk about.

If I want to know what in heaven's name is Jude speaking about I am in the black unless I read the Book of Enoch which He directly quotes.

In fact I am ignorant of most of the important counter-cultural teachings in the Bible unless I LOOK where the write POINTS. In a sense the Bible is a table of contents to all of the historical movements from the Cain agriculturists which engaged in fertility rituals (like in church) in contrast to Abel and Seth which are really names for the agriculturists who could move with the weather and cattle. If in doubt you can find the same accounts on clay tablets,'

For instance Spirit means and only means WIND: it is used symnbolically of the BREATH of God and God's breath is never a PEOPLE. If it is my spirit then it is a HE: if it is a female then it is a SHE like SOPHIA in proverbs. Certainly the ONE and only God had is WISDOM with Him before the breathed out a WORD. One should always have their word and wisdom with them.
So it looks like Dave has, shall we say, not spoken the truth and has fabricated stories about Ken and the Book of Enoch. Shame on you, Dave! YOU are the one who needs to "Repent! Repent!"
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Dave
Dave

July 22nd, 2011, 12:21 pm #23

Paul used sounding brass and tinkling cymbals to speaking in tongues: therefore, using mechanical machines as our mediator between God and man may be a terminal sin.

http://www.piney.com/Speaking.In.Tongues.html

This is similar to Jesus calling the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites and Christ in Ezekiel 33 equated NOT INTENDING to obey to speakers, singers and instrument players.

If you don't grasp the antithesis in Paul's writings it may mean that you have no right to know.

Ephesians 5 singing and making melody in the heart

http://www.piney.com/Ephesians.5.Speaki ... Heart.html

The Bible draws a contrast between the pagan, ritualistic form of worship based on exploitation of the innocent or ignorant, and God who had done all of the Work and wants to be our teacher for this life and the next.

The second half of Paul's statements will often be the antithesis of the first and not an ammendment.




Truitt Adair agrees too much with Rick Atchley: ifGod COMMANDED instrumental praise for the congregation even when Stephen knew that God turned them over to worship the starry host because of musical rejoicing.

Then it is true that God enjoys people worshipping the starry host and you probably need a New Testament LAW to change that.

God did not command a king, kingdom, temple, animal slaughter or the Levites to make aloud noise during the process: I think that means that the latter day church has deviated from the Restoration principle that understood that the sacrificial system wasa CURSE totally exterminatedby the sacrifice of Jesus of Nazareth who fulfilled it all.

http://www.piney.com/Truitt.Adair.Rick. ... ments.html








You will notice that the up arrow is worship which is THEIR work. On the other hand since we non-legalists have nothing God needs, a TRUE ekklesia has the green arrow pointed downward. The proof is that the upward celebrative attempt to do something for God which will redeem our total lostness is the mark of the beast.

The Church is A School (only) of the Word of Christ (only) specificially built or educated upon the foundation of the Prophets and Apostles. It seems that RH has followed the absolute patternism using "music to make the Lamb dumb before the slaughter.

666 is the number of a name: 666 isn't in the Bible but six hundred + sixty + six is in the Greek which is off limits to those God has cast off. Each of these terms are used in a very large sense identifying the musical celebration of Apollo (Abaddon, Apollyon) who has unleasshed the loocusts or muses for Bible readers.



Rick began by using the pyramid of power which is a ziggurat: a tower of Babylon. The new logo is the clearest 666 both as a picture and as denouncing the DOWNWARD arrow where Christ is the Teacher and we are disciples. Disciples worship ONLY in giving attention to the Master Teacher. Jesus said He would always give you a way of escape: the saved are the FEW.
One minute it is inspired and the next minute it isn't.

Ken said "If I want to know what in heaven's name is Jude speaking about I am in the black unless I read the Book of Enoch which He directly quotes."

Examination #1)
"Careful examination of the two passages reveals some significant differences. First, Jude refers to "thousands" of angels, but Enoch refers to "millions." Jude says that God will "convict" all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be "destroyed." The rest of the two passages disagree in wording in minor ways. Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude quoted Enoch. Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit, we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. Therefore Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts.
The book of Enoch was never referred to by Jesus or any of the New Testament writers as scripture, and the book was not included in the New Testament by the apostles. It is commonly misunderstood that the content of the Bible evolved over time. But the New Testament clearly tells us that the apostles were identifying scripture as it was being written (1 Tim. 5:17-18; 2 Pet. 3:14-16). The New Testament books were being distributed by the apostles to the various churches to be read (Gal. 6:11; Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:2; 3:14). By the time the apostles died, the New Testament had been written and its books were known. The Muratorian Fragment and several of the early fathers have left us a list of books that were identified as belonging to the New Testament. The book of Enoch was never included. Some books were challenged later but never with success."

Examination #2)
"The Book of Enoch wasnt included in Scripture because it wasnt written by either Enoch of Genesis times and didnt appear until long after the events it describes. Also, theological errors led scholars to conclude that it wasnt an inspired writing. So, while there are many interesting explanations of traditional Jewish beliefs, the book should not be given the weight of Scripture.
There was an Enoch as well as a Lamech in both the lines of Seth and Cain, and Methushael and Methuselah were two different people, So yes, the references you cited are of six different people."


Ken, Enoch wasn't included as a book in the Bible for a good reason. If it wasn't accurate enough to be included as Inspired works then why use it at all?

One more examination for you Ken, about Enoch. Look at this one closely.
Examination #3
"Judes quote is not the only quote in the Bible from a non-biblical source. The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, OR EVEN TRUE. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible. Enoch was seven generations from Adam, prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:1-24). Evidently, though, this was genuinely something that Enoch prophesied or the Bible would not attribute it to him, Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men (Jude 14). This saying of Enoch was evidently handed down by tradition, and eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch."
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R*
R*

July 22nd, 2011, 1:29 pm #24

I have never said it was inspired: I have said that someone has counted 128 places in the New Testament. I have found lots of them but not yet 128 times.

One version was found with the Dead Sea Scrolls and has long been considered as inspired as any of the Apocryphal books which were in the 'original KJV" they talk about.

If I want to know what in heaven's name is Jude speaking about I am in the black unless I read the Book of Enoch which He directly quotes.

In fact I am ignorant of most of the important counter-cultural teachings in the Bible unless I LOOK where the write POINTS. In a sense the Bible is a table of contents to all of the historical movements from the Cain agriculturists which engaged in fertility rituals (like in church) in contrast to Abel and Seth which are really names for the agriculturists who could move with the weather and cattle. If in doubt you can find the same accounts on clay tablets,'

For instance Spirit means and only means WIND: it is used symnbolically of the BREATH of God and God's breath is never a PEOPLE. If it is my spirit then it is a HE: if it is a female then it is a SHE like SOPHIA in proverbs. Certainly the ONE and only God had is WISDOM with Him before the breathed out a WORD. One should always have their word and wisdom with them.
I gather that "rocnar" (rancor) is unable to give a valid reason why Jude would quote from the Book of Enoch if the latter were not an inspired work. Yes, we are quite done here. Further arguments would be futile; in fact, most religious arguments are futile.

****************************************************************

This is from about a year ago.

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Joined: July 29th, 2010, 2:32 pm

July 22nd, 2011, 3:38 pm #25

One minute it is inspired and the next minute it isn't.

Ken said "If I want to know what in heaven's name is Jude speaking about I am in the black unless I read the Book of Enoch which He directly quotes."

Examination #1)
"Careful examination of the two passages reveals some significant differences. First, Jude refers to "thousands" of angels, but Enoch refers to "millions." Jude says that God will "convict" all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be "destroyed." The rest of the two passages disagree in wording in minor ways. Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude quoted Enoch. Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit, we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. Therefore Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts.
The book of Enoch was never referred to by Jesus or any of the New Testament writers as scripture, and the book was not included in the New Testament by the apostles. It is commonly misunderstood that the content of the Bible evolved over time. But the New Testament clearly tells us that the apostles were identifying scripture as it was being written (1 Tim. 5:17-18; 2 Pet. 3:14-16). The New Testament books were being distributed by the apostles to the various churches to be read (Gal. 6:11; Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:2; 3:14). By the time the apostles died, the New Testament had been written and its books were known. The Muratorian Fragment and several of the early fathers have left us a list of books that were identified as belonging to the New Testament. The book of Enoch was never included. Some books were challenged later but never with success."

Examination #2)
"The Book of Enoch wasnt included in Scripture because it wasnt written by either Enoch of Genesis times and didnt appear until long after the events it describes. Also, theological errors led scholars to conclude that it wasnt an inspired writing. So, while there are many interesting explanations of traditional Jewish beliefs, the book should not be given the weight of Scripture.
There was an Enoch as well as a Lamech in both the lines of Seth and Cain, and Methushael and Methuselah were two different people, So yes, the references you cited are of six different people."


Ken, Enoch wasn't included as a book in the Bible for a good reason. If it wasn't accurate enough to be included as Inspired works then why use it at all?

One more examination for you Ken, about Enoch. Look at this one closely.
Examination #3
"Judes quote is not the only quote in the Bible from a non-biblical source. The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, OR EVEN TRUE. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible. Enoch was seven generations from Adam, prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:1-24). Evidently, though, this was genuinely something that Enoch prophesied or the Bible would not attribute it to him, Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men (Jude 14). This saying of Enoch was evidently handed down by tradition, and eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch."
I quote Machiavelli and Hitler to see how the CHANGE guys followed a well known pattern of stealing people's kingdom from them: I don't try to defend either one.

I quote The Scribes but Christ's view was:

Even the stork in the heavens knows her times; and the turtledove, swallow, and crane keep the time of their coming; but my people know not the ordinance of the LORD."How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. The wise men shall be put to shame, they shall be dismayed and taken; lo, THEY HAVE REJECTED THE WORD OF THE LORD, and what wisdom is in them? Jeremiah 8:8-9 RSV

I quote Cyril, I don't need to defend him:

Cyril of Alexandria, Commentary on John,

That the Pharisees puffed up unto strange boasting,
were wont to pretend that the Divine Word was with them and in them,
and therefore foolishly affirmed that they had advanced to marvellous wisdom,
the Spirit Itself will testify,
since Christ says by the Prophet Jeremiah unto them,
How do ye say, WE are wise, and the word of the Lord is with us?
For nought to the scribes became their lying pen;
the wise men were ashamed, were dismayed and taken;
what wisdom is in them? because they rejected the word of the Lord.

For how are they not taken rejecting the Living and Hypostatic Word of God, receiving not the faith to Him-ward,
but dishonouring the Impress of God the Father, and refusing to behold His most true Form (so to say)
through His God-befitting Authority and Power?


Understand? Jesus called the Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites: Christ in Ezekiel 33 called them slick speakers, singers and instrument players. Why do you try to justify those Jesus and all of the Greek literature calls hypocrites (anything above the direct command to READ and apply)?


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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 22nd, 2011, 6:36 pm #26

I gather that "rocnar" (rancor) is unable to give a valid reason why Jude would quote from the Book of Enoch if the latter were not an inspired work. Yes, we are quite done here. Further arguments would be futile; in fact, most religious arguments are futile.

****************************************************************

This is from about a year ago.
As I said, most religious arguments are futile.
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 22nd, 2011, 6:42 pm #27

One minute it is inspired and the next minute it isn't.

Ken said "If I want to know what in heaven's name is Jude speaking about I am in the black unless I read the Book of Enoch which He directly quotes."

Examination #1)
"Careful examination of the two passages reveals some significant differences. First, Jude refers to "thousands" of angels, but Enoch refers to "millions." Jude says that God will "convict" all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be "destroyed." The rest of the two passages disagree in wording in minor ways. Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude quoted Enoch. Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit, we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. Therefore Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts.
The book of Enoch was never referred to by Jesus or any of the New Testament writers as scripture, and the book was not included in the New Testament by the apostles. It is commonly misunderstood that the content of the Bible evolved over time. But the New Testament clearly tells us that the apostles were identifying scripture as it was being written (1 Tim. 5:17-18; 2 Pet. 3:14-16). The New Testament books were being distributed by the apostles to the various churches to be read (Gal. 6:11; Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:2; 3:14). By the time the apostles died, the New Testament had been written and its books were known. The Muratorian Fragment and several of the early fathers have left us a list of books that were identified as belonging to the New Testament. The book of Enoch was never included. Some books were challenged later but never with success."

Examination #2)
"The Book of Enoch wasnt included in Scripture because it wasnt written by either Enoch of Genesis times and didnt appear until long after the events it describes. Also, theological errors led scholars to conclude that it wasnt an inspired writing. So, while there are many interesting explanations of traditional Jewish beliefs, the book should not be given the weight of Scripture.
There was an Enoch as well as a Lamech in both the lines of Seth and Cain, and Methushael and Methuselah were two different people, So yes, the references you cited are of six different people."


Ken, Enoch wasn't included as a book in the Bible for a good reason. If it wasn't accurate enough to be included as Inspired works then why use it at all?

One more examination for you Ken, about Enoch. Look at this one closely.
Examination #3
"Judes quote is not the only quote in the Bible from a non-biblical source. The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, OR EVEN TRUE. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible. Enoch was seven generations from Adam, prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:1-24). Evidently, though, this was genuinely something that Enoch prophesied or the Bible would not attribute it to him, Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men (Jude 14). This saying of Enoch was evidently handed down by tradition, and eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch."
So if Ken doesn't think Enoch is inspired and Dave concurs, then why is Dave being so defensive? What's he hollering about anyway? Hmmm? Maybe that's just Dave's nature--to scream and shout at those with whom he ordinarily disagrees.
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Dr. Bill. Crump
Dr. Bill. Crump

July 22nd, 2011, 10:24 pm #28

One minute it is inspired and the next minute it isn't.

Ken said "If I want to know what in heaven's name is Jude speaking about I am in the black unless I read the Book of Enoch which He directly quotes."

Examination #1)
"Careful examination of the two passages reveals some significant differences. First, Jude refers to "thousands" of angels, but Enoch refers to "millions." Jude says that God will "convict" all of the ungodly, but Enoch says that they will be "destroyed." The rest of the two passages disagree in wording in minor ways. Therefore, it is inaccurate to conclude that Jude quoted Enoch. Since the book of Jude was written by Jude under the influence of God the Holy Spirit, we conclude that the book of Jude is truth. Therefore Enoch is wrong with regard to some facts.
The book of Enoch was never referred to by Jesus or any of the New Testament writers as scripture, and the book was not included in the New Testament by the apostles. It is commonly misunderstood that the content of the Bible evolved over time. But the New Testament clearly tells us that the apostles were identifying scripture as it was being written (1 Tim. 5:17-18; 2 Pet. 3:14-16). The New Testament books were being distributed by the apostles to the various churches to be read (Gal. 6:11; Col. 4:16; 1 Thess. 5:27; 2 Thess. 2:2; 3:14). By the time the apostles died, the New Testament had been written and its books were known. The Muratorian Fragment and several of the early fathers have left us a list of books that were identified as belonging to the New Testament. The book of Enoch was never included. Some books were challenged later but never with success."

Examination #2)
"The Book of Enoch wasnt included in Scripture because it wasnt written by either Enoch of Genesis times and didnt appear until long after the events it describes. Also, theological errors led scholars to conclude that it wasnt an inspired writing. So, while there are many interesting explanations of traditional Jewish beliefs, the book should not be given the weight of Scripture.
There was an Enoch as well as a Lamech in both the lines of Seth and Cain, and Methushael and Methuselah were two different people, So yes, the references you cited are of six different people."


Ken, Enoch wasn't included as a book in the Bible for a good reason. If it wasn't accurate enough to be included as Inspired works then why use it at all?

One more examination for you Ken, about Enoch. Look at this one closely.
Examination #3
"Judes quote is not the only quote in the Bible from a non-biblical source. The Apostle Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean we should give any additional authority to Epimenides writings. The same is true with Jude, verse 14. Jude quoting from the book of Enoch in Jude verse 9 does not indicate the entire book is inspired, OR EVEN TRUE. All it means is that particular verse is true. It is interesting to note that no scholars believe the Book of Enoch to have truly been written by the Enoch in the Bible. Enoch was seven generations from Adam, prior to the Flood (Genesis 5:1-24). Evidently, though, this was genuinely something that Enoch prophesied or the Bible would not attribute it to him, Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men (Jude 14). This saying of Enoch was evidently handed down by tradition, and eventually recorded in the Book of Enoch."
Since Jude says Enoch made a prophecy about God, was Enoch just whistlin' "Dixie" (or some Hebrew counterpart) when he made that prophecy, or was he "inspired" when he made that prophecy? Could a prophecy about God come from an uninspired man and yet be important enough for Jude, an "inspired" man, to quote it and give validity to it?

As I said, religious arguments are futile.
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R*
R*

July 22nd, 2011, 11:39 pm #29

So if Ken doesn't think Enoch is inspired and Dave concurs, then why is Dave being so defensive? What's he hollering about anyway? Hmmm? Maybe that's just Dave's nature--to scream and shout at those with whom he ordinarily disagrees.
Ken knows when to hold them and knows when to fold them. How about you doctor? Do you still believe Enoch is inspired?
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Dr. Bill Crump
Dr. Bill Crump

July 23rd, 2011, 1:44 am #30

Hold them and fold them--I didn't think Ken was playing poker.

R* wrote: "How about you [sic] doctor [sic]?"

That should be: "How about you, Doctor"?

We've previously discussed when to use a comma and when to capitalize.

BTW, does R* think that Enoch was not inspired?

It's just a rhetorical question because, as I said, religious arguments are futile.
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