Some Follow up of Richland: Lipscomb University approves of "Hell and Mister Fudge."

J. Wayne Weaver
J. Wayne Weaver

January 18th, 2006, 11:50 pm #31

Dear Alvin,

I didn’t know of your posting of the 25 Theses until my good brother Weldon McKinney and I were lunching together and he told me about it. Upon examining the document, I was concerned for several reasons. The whole tenor of the document seems to be one that will not heal the wounds at church; rather, it seems to me, it will only further exacerbate the situation and be a cause of contention and further hurt to the body of Christ at Richland Hills. I do not think that is what you wish to happen, but I think that will be the result. In the few times that we have been with each other, I have come to regard you as one who has a great desire to win the lost to Jesus. I consider you to have a good heart, and know that you have extended time and treasure to get some things done while you were a member at Richland Hills. The making of the Garden of Prayer is a testimony to that. But to publicly post the 25 Theses as you have with all the accusations contained therein will only take away from the good that you have done.

To state, as you have, that “to appoint both men and women without distinction as ‘special servants’ is without Scripture warrant” is to ignore that there are very good arguments for recognizing that the New Testament church had women deacons. (See my posting of the discussion that I had with Louis Rushmore concerning this.) I know that we will probably never agree on the New Testament evidence, but can’t you admit that there is a possibility that you might be wrong on this subject? I know that it is possible for me to be wrong about this, for I have changed what I previously thought about the subject of women deacons – and I know that I do not have all the answers. Weldon and I have discussed this a few times, and I doubt that either of us will change the other’s mind. But to divide a church over something like this is wrong. I know that you will probably say that it is the elders who are doing such by appointing women as “special servants.” But I think it was not a change of practice, it was only a change of nomenclature. Women were doing the work of “deacons” but they weren’t called “deacons.” And I would hold that every church of Christ that I know of has such women, for the church could not function without them. We have secretaries, Sunday school teachers and supervisors, those who serve in “benevolence” areas, etc. No church is without these women who serve as special servants.

You also state:

"5. We call on you to repent of changing the charter written in 1967 by the original founding elders. You removed, among other things, without the knowledge and consent of the congregation, this concise restrictive clause: "No mechanical instrument of any kind whatsoever shall ever be used in connection with the song service or worship or work to be carried on or conducted by said congregation or religious body". You have dishonored those righteous men and women who made every effort within their power to safeguard future generations from this specific departure from the Bible pattern for New Testament worship. They were aware of the divisive nature of this particular innovation and therefore made specific mention of it in their founding document. "

This, I think, is somewhat misleading. While it is true that the specific clause was removed, it was done in the context of a thorough revision of the charter to bring it into compliance with state and federal laws concerning non-profit organizations. There were a lot of changes and not just with regard to that particular clause. You also failed to note that this particular clause was added (Article 5, Section 6) “A Church of Christ as used in this Article Five is a group or body of two or more believer in Jesus of Nazareth as the Christ, the Son of God, born of a virgin, raised from the dead, and now seated at the right hand of God ruling and reigning over His kingdom, the Church; the members of which group or body have been immersed in water into the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit for the remission of sins. Each such body of believers constitutes a completely autonomous Church of Christ, having no earthly head or headquarters; who believe in the verbal inspiration of the Bible and the miracles recorded therein; to assemble on the first day of every week to honor God and spiritually edify each other by observing the Lord’s Supper; by studying the Bible, by contributing; by praying to God, and by singing songs of praise and edification without the use of mechanical instruments.” It seems obvious to me that the elders of the 1994 revision of the charter were not trying to make it easier to use the instrument in worship.

You indicate that this revision dishonors the “original founding elders” of the 1967 charter. Of the six elders in the 1967 charter, all but two are dead. Of the six, two were my family: my father, and my father-in-law. I cannot claim to speak for all of the elders of the 1967 charter, but I did know them all and the kind of men they were. I think they would be more concerned with those who sow discord among the brethren than the revision of the charter. I do know that when I asked my father about this, he said that he did not feel “dishonored” by what the elders did in 1994.

My roots go deep in the Richland Hills Church of Christ. As a child I met in the Glenview Elementary School with the church before we even had a building to call our own. It has grown through the years because God has given it leaders who were in love with Him. They weren’t perfect; they made mistakes. They did not always agree among themselves, but they were unified in their approach to leading the family at Richland Hills. I think that is what has made it a special place – it has been family. It has accepted people from all over who have been hurting in many different ways, and in it they have found a place to serve God. At Richland Hills we probably have had a wider spectrum of beliefs, practices, and socio-economic backgrounds than any other church of Christ that I know of. What has kept us together has been our love for God and for each other. That’s why we can have people who disagree on so many different things still remain in the one body. We show the world that we love God by loving each other and not insisting on our own way. Alvin, I don’t agree with everything that occurs at Richland Hills. If I were in charge I’m sure that things would be more traditional. (If I were in charge the church would probably end up much smaller :)) I doubt that there is a church anywhere that I would completely endorse its practice and teaching. I suspect that with your even wider experience you could say the same. But I love Richland Hills. I love it with all of its failings, warts and all. It is a great church. But if the time came when the elders thought that what I was teaching or doing was going to be disruptive and harmful to the church, I would not cause trouble, even if I were convinced that I was right and they were wrong. It’s more important to maintain unity than convince a brother that his viewpoint is wrong (Rom. 14). If, for some reason, I could no longer in good conscience continue there I would quietly leave and not cause trouble.

I pray, Alvin, that you will re-examine what you are doing.

In Christian Love,
J. A. Davis
J. A. Davis,
God bless you and all your family... both spiritual and earthly! I remember with great love the gifts of friendship and grace that flowed from the family at RHCC when we attended there in the 80-early 90s. The openness of the classes and the full discussions we had as we all attempted to walk with our Lord. Mary and I pray for the healing of the Family there.
In God's love we remain just Wayne and Mary
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Observer
Observer

June 14th, 2006, 12:04 am #32

C.G.: whatever, the only name that matters is Christian.

Me: What about a MUSICAL WORSHIP TEAM NAMED Jezebel? Is that ok? No.

Then how about one named HALAL which means to SHINE, BOAST, MAKE SELF VILE as the source of the word LUCIFER? How about one named ZOE after "the Beast and the female instructing principle"?

How about taking the name CHRIST off the church and adding COMMUNITY? Or how about naming your child Fido?
===================================================

C.G.: And about the music thing, they used music in early church, and I thought worship was to be joyous!

ME: That is what the LIERS FOR DOLLARS have told you but Jesus said that "Doctors of the Law take away the key to knowledge." He fired them but they are digging their way out of the earth.

The word "MUSIC" in Greek is SYMPHONIA and speaks of secular affairs with singing, playing, dancing, drinking much like the RISING UP TO PLAY at Mount Sinai which was MUSICAL IDOLATRY.

The word MELODY or PSALLO is not a musical term: it speaks of the warrior bow twangers who could melt your heart or drive you into panic. It derives from "grinding you into a fine powder" like the SOP Jesus fed Judas which caused him to SCOOT.

The word MUSIC is never used of the worship of God's people any time any place under any circumstances. People who LIE about that are agents of an alien power.

The Bible, the Book of Enoch and my 36 collected ancient resources show that Lucifer (Zoe) was a MUSICAL ENCHANTER who caused the fallen angels. He was in the garden of Eden. SHE will be the end-time Bablon whore who was KIRKE who attached her name to CHURCH in John's arena.

The MUSIC was not called such in the slaughter of thousands of animals as a CURSE for the idolatry at Mount Sinai. They made a loud crashing noise and if you could get the sight and sound and SMELL of this slaughter pen you could understand why the priests NEEDED DIVERSION from the horrors.

This SLAUGHTER represented their repudiation of the Spirit of Christ as their king, prince and priest.

Psalm 41 predicts that Judas would try this on Jesus and it was fulfilled when the WARRIOR MUSICIANS mocked Jesus: they "piped" trying to pervert Jesus into the Dionysus song and dance.

However, these SOUNDERS service was "HARD BONDAGE" and they did not WORSHIP. They served in the COURTS and not in the Holy Place. The Holy Place had its sanctity protected by a BODY so that no SINGER OR MUSICIAN could ever enter into the Holy Place as a type of the church or body of Christ.

The only one who MET God was the high priest once a year in the Most Holy Place. The people were IN EXILE from the presence of God. Only BELIEVERS now come boldly before the Throne of God where we worship in the PLACE of the human spirit. No musicians dare try to enter.

There were many INNOVATIONS by both Pharisees and Sadducees and Jesus REPUDIATES each and every one. For instance, it was pagan and polluted superstition which made the MUSICAL MOURING TEAMS believe that they could approach the "gods" on behald of the dead girl or appease the spirit of the dead. Jesus politely invited them outside, they MOCKED HIM something like "speaking in tongues" and they were CAST OUT "more or less violently." The word defines how one CAST OUT DUNG. Just like the carcass and dung was CAST out of the temple area.

No church had any notion of MUSIC as worship because:

1. The Jews had grown up in the Synagogue (never in the temple proper) and understood that it was A SCHOOL OF THE BIBLE. There was never any PRAISE SERVICE in the Synagogue.

2. The Gentiles understood the eternal connection between MUSIC in the pagan temples, adultery and perverted sexuality.

It was not until the fourth century that DIVISION was caused by introducing "music" which was simply chanting the INSPIRED BIBLICAL TEXT rather than obeying Paul and SPEAKING or PREACHING one to another.

All of the church historians associate MUSIC with Satan and repudiate it absolutely. The 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia agrees.

The founders of denominations repudiated music as worship.

MUSIC has been introduced into the church as a planned, deliberate effort to INFILTRATE AND DIVERT churches of Christ into being Christian churches. Perhaps 100% of them were aspiring MUSICIANS riding the widows to bootstrap themselve up into fame and fortune. Or they were BOOK PEDDLERS or wannabes.

All of this is in fulfillment of Apollo or Abaddon or Apollyon's releasing the LOCUSTS. Apollo's MUSES were turned into LOCUSTS in the ancient stories. Throughout the classics the locust or grasshoppers are MUSICAL PERFORMERS who LULL people into a deep sleep. The MUSES are grouped with INSTRUMENTALISTS in Revelation 18 as "ministers" of the Babylon Harlot.

No, sister, LIERS ARE FRYERS if they tell you that MUSIC was EVER used in the worship of a Spirit God. And in paganism, the same AUTHORITY for music is also athority for girl singers as prostitutes and male performers as SODOMITES. THERE IS NO OTHER EVIDENCE.

In fact, in the Bible all musical terms or names of Instruments are connected to the Devil, to polluting or to prostituting. The TRIUMPH over prophesied for Jesus by Judas was the ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION in the Jerusalem Temple under the Greeks: The MASCULINE JOURNEY INITIATION was sodomy. There is no other tradition.

If you care one jot I can point you to the largest collection of documents but NOT ONE which will give you authority for MUSIC of any KIND unless you are MARKED by Satan.

The JUDGMENTALISM about Billy Graham began with the LOCUSTS eating up the widow's tithe KNOWING THEY WERE DELICIOUSLY sowing discord by JUDGING that Franklin Graham was OK along with EVERYONE who can say "Jesus."

This is the deliberate use of DISCORD or "Navigating the Winds of Change" derived from Hegel, Hitler or Machiavelli. You deliberately rub dung in the face of people but not to the point of getting fired. Then they WASH IT OFF and you are eternally grateful that you don't have to do it every week. Nevertheless, they have MOVED you from YOUR opinion to worship theirs.

The JUDGMENTALISM about music began with destructive children DELIBERATELY SOWING DISCORD just to pay off the TEMPLE BILL.

Those who OBJECT can be defined as JUDGMENTAL only by those who would shoot you in the heart and condemn you for squirting blood on their dancing slippers.

Ken Sublett
The message of our Lord and Savior does not match up with the volatile hatred that you spew towards a fellow believer in the Lord Jesus. You strain at a gnat and swallow a camel!
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Royce Ogle
Royce Ogle

June 22nd, 2006, 4:14 pm #33

I found this site quite by accident while search for information about a childhood friend by the last name of Atchley. I have to admit that I was both appalled and humored by all the rants here.
I find myself thinking the same thing my teenaged son questioned me about recently. Why would ANYONE want to believe in a God that is presented as such an JERK?!
I sure don't. I'm not saying I don't believe there is a God. But you have to admit that God himself would or should disapprove of such a judgemental, insecure and dismissive entity. I prefer to believe in a God of Love.
I find it humorous that so many fundamentalist Christians act in just the opposite way that the bible teaches --- I find many "devout Christians" to be the most hate filled, venomous, judmental and angry people I've ever met. Its so sad.
Am I getting this right -- alot of this is over MUSIC? Hysterical! :-P
Geez -- yall SCARE me!
There are SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many more ways you could spend your time that would help other people.....
Gal 5 13 "For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
Walking in the Spirit

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."

It isn't too difficult for even the beginning Bible student to apply this text from Gal 5 to the posts on this site and make an imformed decision as to who is more likely walking in the Spirit and who is not.

The reason Mr. Sublett must use so much extrabiblical resourses to support his theories is that the Bible alone does not. I have read many, many of your posts Mr. Sublett and I have not seen even a hint of love for those whith whom you disagree. If you don't love your brother you don't love God! That is not my words, its God's word.

Royce Ogle
Monroe, LA
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shawn
shawn

June 25th, 2006, 4:03 am #34

All I can say is "AMEN" to your post. God bless.
Hey Ken. I was wondering if you some times sign in as other people and agree with yourself so it doesn't seem like you are "totally out there" and no one is listening?
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

July 6th, 2006, 10:12 pm #35

Gal 5 13 "For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 15 But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another!
Walking in the Spirit

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery,[c] fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders,[d] drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another."

It isn't too difficult for even the beginning Bible student to apply this text from Gal 5 to the posts on this site and make an imformed decision as to who is more likely walking in the Spirit and who is not.

The reason Mr. Sublett must use so much extrabiblical resourses to support his theories is that the Bible alone does not. I have read many, many of your posts Mr. Sublett and I have not seen even a hint of love for those whith whom you disagree. If you don't love your brother you don't love God! That is not my words, its God's word.

Royce Ogle
Monroe, LA
Those BEHIND Concerned Members are those who have had their CHURCH HOME stolen by false preachers and MUSICIANS. They boast about infiltrating and diverting to turn YOUR property into a THEATER FOR HOLY ENTERTAINMENT.

All of this flowed out of the Vineyard, aka New Wineskin religion, and all of the PRO instrumental band of men have already identified themselves in favor of TEAMS and INSTRUMENTS. They are all Biblically and terminally ignorant or terminally EVIL. They believe that TRUTH got zapped away and "we gonna partner with God to work out a new set." They don't hesitate to tell you that they have a HIGHER USE for your property and JUST steal it and drive away half of the members. What is behind it is to give ALL religious groups a place to share information and get BIBLICAL help to defeat the FALSE TEACHERS. I am an old and tired retired Engineer who got pissed off by all of the people "stealing the church houses of widows."

Jesus commanded that worship be in the SPIRIT: that means in the Mind where we are commanded to speak with ONE MIND and ONE MOUTH using that which is written or Scripture to Educate, glorify God and keep the peace.

Paul said that the Jewish converts now worship in the PLACE of the spirit or mind because outside there be homosexual lovers:

<font color=blue>Ph 3:1 FINALLY, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe.

Ph 3:2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision.
  • Kuon (g2965) koo'-ohn; a prim. word; a dog ["hound"] (lit. or fig.): - dog.

    Re.22:15 For without are DOGS, and SORCERERS, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
</FONT>Paul commanded the word SPEAK which can never mean SING much less MAKE MUSIC. We know from all of that HISTORY that no one dared to ADD singing as an ACT of worship for almost 400 years.

The word SPEAK in the ekklesia or synagogue meant "in a whisper or conversational tone." The Latin SERMO means the same thing. Those who performed as speakers, singers or musicians were identified by jesus as the SECT of the HYPOCTES by point to prophecy.

Another word for SPEAK is LOGIKOS which is the OPPOSITE OF MOUSIKE.

That is because the MUSES created mental excitement Jesus died to outlaw and Paul outlawed for the SYNAGOGUE or school of the Bible in Rom. 15.

<font color=blue>Mousikos delicate, hêdion; harmonious [in tune], fitting, Delicate Malakos path-êtikos d. = pathêtikos, e. of music, soft, effeminate, m. harmoniai </font>

The Patheticos were the MALE prostitutes who were the ONLY male musicians. The Word Music speaks of the MUSES who were the MUSICAL TEAM for the Babylon Whore end-time religion. John said that the musicians performed SORCERY by which they deceived the nations. There CANDLES were removed and if you believe the Biblical examples and The Book of Enoch affirmed by Jude, they have fallen and they will never be restored to the WORD.

I hope that you understand that Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels using a word meaning LIKE DUNG.

<font color=blue> mousikê (sc. technê), hê, any art over which the Muses presided, esp. poetry sung to music,

Mousikos (g3451) moo-sik-os'; from Moåusa , (a Muse); "musical", i.e. (as noun) a minstrel: - musician

Rev 18:22 The music of harpists and musicians, flute players and trumpeters, will never be heard in you again. No workman of any trade will ever be found in you again. The sound of a millstone will never be heard in you again. </font>

These were the concision or dogs or SORCERERS. They were the emasculated priests of the Mother Goddess (Zoe, Eve, etc)

<font color=red>Gal 5:12 As for those agitators, I wish they would go the whole way and emasculate themselves! </font>

Iamblichus wrote

<font color =blue>11. This is probably an allusion to the mutilations practiced at Rites like the orgies of the Great Mother [ZOE>. Similar suspensions of sensibility are reported in cases of burning alive and the tortures inflicted upon religious devotees. The enthusiasm or mental ecstasy overcomes the corporeal sensation.

Where then are those who dare to mutilate themselves; seeing that they draw down the Apostolic curse, and accuse the workmanship of God, and take part with the Manichees? ... But if you will not allow this, why do you not mutilate the tongue for blasphemy, the hands for rapine, the feet for their evil courses, in short, the whole body?

For the ear enchanted by the sound of a flute hath often enervated the soul; and the perception of a sweet perfume by the nostrils hath bewitched the mind, and made it frantic for pleasure. </font>

The LADED BURDEN Jesus died to remove was "spiritual anxiety created by religious rituals." The word REST or PAUO is dedicated to saying: "Stop the the singing, stop the instruments, stop the PANIC" which all musical noises created.

Therefore, the LIBERTY Jesus died to give us is LIBERATION FROM the musical performers who, like the Scribes, would write you a song or some better SCRIPTURE, the Pharisees who changed the LAWS so they could rob widows, and the HYPOCRITES. This was a SECTARIAN wing and Jesus identified them as SINGERS and MUSICIANS in Ezekiel 33.

<font color=red>For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh [human passions], but by love serve one another. Gal 5:13

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. Gal 5:14</font>

No one can LOVE anyone in a spiritual sense and MAKE MUSIC bleed off the worship for themselves--and get paid to. ALL known recorded history MARKS them as prostitutes or if male, either DRUNK or PERVERTS.

WRONG KIND OF LOVE. Motive? No income from this. I began bu searching MOST of the world's literature on music and religion and the MUSIC -- RELIGION -- SEXUALITY them cannot be disputed. I quote extra Biblical literature to prove to you that there is NO EXCEPTION in recorded history to what the Bible says about MUSIC as having arrived with Lucifer as the "singing and harp playing prostitute" in the garden of Eden.

Furthermore, I quote ALL known resources to prove that the PhDuhs promoting music as just flat liars. For the literate among us some of us just enjoying anything above out belly button.

MUSIC is pagan prostitute religion and NO ONE can find any exception.
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Brian Gibson
Brian Gibson

July 19th, 2006, 3:49 am #36



I have to say, to some extent I agree with you about the change agents. The motive in many cases is arrogance. Going into a church and and changing its culture is divisive and pointless. The point of a community of faith is to support and love each other and worship God. Not try out the lastest workshop church growth theories.

I have attended Richland Hills for a long time. They do lots of good things. They do lots of silly unnecessary things as well. But that is what it is to be human. We are all imperfect and fallible, even when we believe the book we base our faith on isn't.

I don't know what to say to people like you Mr. Sublett. I grew up with in a household that believes like you. I parted ways with them because I could no longer find meaning in it. I think a majority of younger people like myself feel the same way. Your way of belief is dying out, just as the culture that created it is. The good news for you, if you choose to see it this way, is the Baby boomer inspired consumer church phenom is on its way out as well. Mark my words, another generation or so, the huge temples of excess that mark the suburban landscape will be empty. Lucado, Shelby, Cope and the like will be footnotes in history, replaced by the next big thing.

Brian
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Rick White
Rick White

December 3rd, 2006, 4:21 am #37

Where in the Bible does it say anything about instruments in church service? And if your basing your church service on what was done in the old testament I think you need to have many more changes. I am sure they did not have microphones, and pews, for goodness sake they met in homes. We don't meet in homes. How do you know they did not raise there hands. Where is that mentioned in the Bible?

I do believe that baptisim is a response to and a show of obedience as a result of being saved by grace. But if you must do something to be saved, thats a work and our salvation is not a free gift from God. The Bible teaches clearly that we are not saved by works.

Do you really believe that God would not be faithful to all those out there seeking him? Do you really believe that He would lead Billy Graham and millions of others earnestly seeking him down the wrong path after all these years?

Do you really think if we don't follow your ways we will all perish? How about those in Africa that sing and shout out loud and dance before the Lord with no musical instruments because their culture is different from ours. Shall they perish too?

After reading your posting I am so glad I have been free from all this nonsense for the last 9 years. I have been able to focus on Jesus as my salvation and loving others as Jesus loved me. Not- musical instrumnets, have you been dunked (we don't care what's in your heart or if you understand what salvation means to your lifestyle, we want to know if you have been emersed fully under water). Just think of all God could do for the kingdom if we spent as much time on Him as you have wasted on bashing His church.
All the fuss about the theses on the door is actually both sad and interesting. In an article concerning the split between Disciples of Christ and Churches of Christ I read recently (Southern History?) showed that the Churches of Christ split fropm the Disciples due primarily to animosity to churches in the North. Instrumental music (richer northern churches could afford them, southern churches could not and of course, we tend to use scriptute to "proof text" our predetermined stance on things), big churches, rich churches, missionary societies, othet things dividing north and south. In passages I have read in the Bible instrumental music was welcomed by God (e.g.the dedication of the temple in 2Chronicles 5) where the musicians played, the singers sang and the Spirit of the Lord filled the Temple. David's playing of musical instruments was pleasing to God, etc.
We are not here to try to copy the protocol used in ther early church practices. Otherwise, song directors would not be allowed, there would be no "announcements, no Bible classes, no Power Point sermons, no Sunday evening Lord's Supper, etc. Since there is nothing inherently evil about instrumental music, other than violation of our tradition, there should be no railing aginst it, rather appriciation of the heartfelt worship of God.
Since we are among 4-5% of Christians disdaining music, it is a little odd that we alone are smart enough to discern God's word and the other 95% of Christians are just too dumb to realize such an "obvious direction" in Christian theology?
Rick C. White
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Ken Sublett
Ken Sublett

December 3rd, 2006, 4:17 pm #38

Rick, I am not sure that I can dialog with anyone who could use the word PUTATIVE. I think that is something like Urban Legends? Please send me a note about what you are reading: I have probably reviewed it and posted it. I won't sell your address! Let me begin at the ending:
  • Rick White:<font color=red> Since we are among 4-5% of Christians disdaining music, it is a little odd that we alone are smart enough to discern God's word and the other 95% of Christians are just too dumb to realize such an "obvious direction" in Christian theology?</font>
I don't know anyone who DISDAINS music! The fact is that the church is "ekklesia" which is "synagogue" which is by civil definition, Biblical commands (Numbers 10), the history of the faithful in Israel, the approved example of Jesus, the direct commands of Paul, the example of Paul and the practice of the church before Constatine means A SCHOOL of the BIBLE. The SABBATH means REST and not Saturday. The Holy Convocation demands reading and rehearsing the Word. The resource is "that which is written" or "Scripture" or "Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs" all of which are INSPIRED. Neither preaching nor singing nor passing the plate happened for almost 400 years when the church WENT and preached with NO WAGED roles: just NONE at all.

Jesus CAST OUT the musical minstrels LIKE DUNG and Stephen repudiated the temple and both were in the APPROVED MINORITY. However, you should know that not even in the vilest pagan religions did singers or musicians enter into the Holy Places where the "gods" were presumed to be. So, you have gone where no Jew or pagan ever went before. Not even the Catholics did "congregational singing with instrumental accompaniment." So, if you are NOT part of the infinitely tiney "remnant" you are in TROUBLE. Fact is, outside of American "christianism" there is little MUSIC seen AS worship. If you will check here you will discover that ALL people repudiated instrumental music AS worship:

http://www.piney.com/MuIndex2.html

Fact is, singing as AN ACT was added close to the year 400: before that then used a simple form of SPEAK as commanded using ONLY the Text to TEACH and ADMONISH, Glorify God, comfort with Scripture and KEEP THE UNITY (All commanded by Paul in Romans 15).
  • Rick White:<font color=red> All the fuss about the theses on the door is actually both sad and interesting. In an article concerning the split between Disciples of Christ and Churches of Christ I read recently (Southern History?) showed that the Churches of Christ split fropm the Disciples due primarily to animosity to churches in the North.</font>
Fact is, Rick, churches of Christ (Reformers) were NEVER part of the Stoneites who began as neo-witchcraft at Cane Ridge, Ky (Bourbon county, Hee Haw). "The Church of Christ" is the universal name people used. ALL repudiated instrumental music or "loud ritualism." I have a long list:

http://www.piney.com/ChofChristName.html

A few "Christian churches" agreed to meet in the same building with "Reformers" or churches of Christ. That was because STONE put "union" over doctrine. When the instrument was FORCED IN this agreement to disagree ended. MOST of the Christian churches became Churches of Christ and most of the Stoneite preachers joined the Campbel etal movement. The "christian" churches or DISCIPLES disagreed with the Reformers on EVER SINGLE KEY doctrine including baptism. The Disciples DENOMINATION organized with children as LIFE MEMBERS to include ALL OF CHRISTENDOM wanted to count churches of Christ but it was the CENSUS man who questioned it. Lipscomb denied that they belonged to the Disciples denomination. I have a copy of their PLAN presented in the year 1908.

Fact is, it was the Christian Church which SPLIT from the Disciples because many of them held some of the same views as churches of Christ which were NEVER A PART of the Disciples denomination. So, it was the Christian church which SECTED OUT and not churches of Christ.
  • Rick White:<font color=red> Instrumental music (richer northern churches could afford them, southern churches could not and of course, we tend to use scriptute to "proof text" our predetermined stance on things), big churches, rich churches, missionary societies, othet things dividing north and south.</font>
I have a home made flute made out of a deer bone my dog dragged up, a shofar from a cow horn dragged up, a hand made banjo and a hand made dulcimer. I have several flutes made out of pipe and any pipe can be a trumpet. They rolled up leather to make flutes (lifeless instruments) and stretched gut over turtle shells or played their BOW. My Alabama maternal grandparents had one of the oldest reed organs around. I have the receipt of my Paternal Grandmother who bought hers at 10 dollars a month from farming and selling milk and butter. Churches of Christ built many fine buildings, many still standing, and people had all kinds of instruments in their home: harps, zithers, guitars, flutes, melodians, harpsicords. The war was fought in BATTLES and not all over the country. Furthermore, the first legalistic grab for church property was at Sand Creek, Ill and last time I checked that was not in the SOUTH. There was almost NO churches of Christ in the South confiscated by the Organ: NewBern, TN was one such and you can read the law case. The first organ FORCED in by a liberal preacher and removed by an elder was at Midway, Ky and that is NOT in the South.

In 1878 for the FIRST TIME IN HISTORY it was the Disciples who invented the PSALLO or MELODY to mean "sing and play instruments." Churches of Christ had NEVER used instruments even as Baptists and Presbyterians (now so named). They NEEDED no proof text to NOT BE FORCED TO BEGIN something they and ALL RECORDED CHURCH HISTORY repudiates. The PROOF TEXT defines the what and how of the SYNAGOGUE OF CHRIST. No literate Jew or Gentile would hallucinated INSTRUMENTS in Synagogue or Ekklesia.
  • Rick White:<font color=red> We are not here to try to copy the protocol used in ther early church practices. Otherwise, song directors would not be allowed, there would be no "announcements, no Bible classes, no Power Point sermons, no Sunday evening Lord's Supper, etc. Since there is nothing inherently evil about instrumental music, other than violation of our tradition, there should be no railing aginst it, rather appriciation of the heartfelt worship of God.</font>
Singing was ADDED close to the year 400 and the clerical "song director" is said by McClintock and Strong to be "the oldest heresy largely pervading the church." So you have FORCED singing as an ACT in direct violation of TEACHING THE TEXT. So, now, little Camel, you want to use THAT as authority for adding instruments? The command is to TEACH THAT WHICH IS WRITTEN and no one objects to chalk and blackboard or any of the false examples.

The COMMAND and the CHRIST PURCHASED PURPOSE was to remove the BURDEN LADERS which means "spiritual anxiety created by religions rituals." The word REST in both Hebrew and Greek is a dedicated word and means (in Greek literature), 'STOP the speaking, stop the singing, stop the instruments, stop the PANic.' When they POLLUTED the Sabbath at Mount Sinai the word (h2490) means to play the flute, steal your inheritance, pollute and prostitute. The word PLAY means to sing, joke, dance, play instruments and play sexually. Paul called it DEMON WORSHIP under the BULL symbol. That is what David repeated when he went naked with the servant girls.

We don't NEED a command to sit down and shut down when Jesus assembles (synagogues) to be our SOLE teacher when the elders as commanded "teach that which has been taught."

Jesus didn't die for HEARTFELT WORSHIP: in fact He prescribes NO SUCH THING. What he told the sinful woman--and no PhDuh can grasp--is that God only seeks worship in the PLACE of the human SPIRIT in contrast to MOUNTAINS and HOUSES. What you FEEL after having all of your nerve endings stroked is NOT spirit but emotion pure and simple. So simple that ALL singing and instrument playing was known as SORCERY. Read Revelation 17 about the Mother of Harlots. Then skip to Revelation 18 and hear the singers, musicians and TECHNICIANS defined as SORCERERS who DECEIVED THE WHOLE WORLD. Jude and the Book of Enoch treats them as revived Fallen Angels. Peter called them a CROOKED generation meaning the "drunk with wine SKOLION singers" who tried to pervert even Jesus.

The Bible--and history knows no exception--proves that it was Lucifer (Zoe) who brought musical instruments into the Garden of Eden as the "singing and harp playing PROSTITUTE." Isaiah 30 proves that Tophet or HELL was prepared SPECIFICIALLY for Satan and those She/he seduced using music: there we see god DRIVING or BEATING people into hell with the same wind, string and percussion instruments Lucifer took into the Garden to WHOLLY SEDUCE Eve so that Cain was OF that wicked one. Cain derived from a MUSICAL NOTE. When you do rhetoric and music that is WHY you missed card class 101aaa and THAT is why music is evil. The word DEMAGOGUE is defined as one who takes you captive (heresy) by lifting you up USING THE POPULAR ARTS. Why didn't your STAFF INFECTION tell you that they are DEMAGOGUES and SORCERERS? Well, YOU figure that one out since they LIE like dogs about the LAW OF SINGING and the LAW OF GIVING.

"Will He find faith when He returns?" No, almost none so don't be giddy about joining the POLIS or majority crowds because Paul said that Jesus will be OUTSIDE suffering reproaches. The battle is against principalities and powers in high places: our weapons are not lifeless instruments or carnal weapons but the WORD OF GOD. Outside of the cursed Monarchy civil and clergy leaders, God has always QUARANTINED His own in local synagogues, ekklesia or assemblies where WE "give attendance to the public reading of the Word, to exortation and doctrine." That fits the universal pattern of the synagogue because by direct command (Numbers 10) and universal understanding "had no praise service."

So, if you want to be saved you have to JOIN tiny remnant which probably HAS ALREADY mostly fled from any modern form of Christianism which has almost no relationship to the Biblical or early historical school of Christ (as Thomas Campbell called it.) They are stealing your money, time, urge to be a disciple (student) and emotiional health. If Jesus visited them they would mock Him like the Levitical Warrior musicians and probably SAT him on the back pew.
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Ron Cozort
Ron Cozort

August 2nd, 2007, 4:50 pm #39

I am not a member at Richland Hills but I heard about
this 25 thesis posted to the door and I was interested
to see what it was all about. It seems looking from
the outside that someone in your group of "concerned
members" has some kind of personal grudge or control
issue. And where is the brotherly love here. All I
see is your group trying to bash this congregation for
no reason that I can read. And what about people out
there reading this who are lost, what will they think
of the church? They will not want to come. Why must
you be so viscious to make a point and I lost the point
early on. Woman have always been servants in the church,
duh!!!! Whether we are called special servants or
whatever, the only name that matters is Christian. And
about the music thing, they used music in early church,
and I thought worship was to be joyous! And all your
bashing about Billy Graham is so uncalled for. He is
a true servant of the Lord and has devoted all his life
to sharing the gospel message. What are you doing for
the kingdom except causing division? How many people
are you sharing the gospel with? Not many since it is
obvious you are all spending your time bashing brothers
and sisters who are only using all means available to
bring the lost in to hear the saving message. It is
easy to criticize when you don't want to actually work
for the kingdom isn't it? Grow up and share the gosel
and stop trying to tear the church down!!!!
I agree! The problem here is you are dealing with a group of people who have a Pelagian mentality.
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Erin Gabel
Erin Gabel

September 28th, 2007, 9:04 pm #40


I have to say, to some extent I agree with you about the change agents. The motive in many cases is arrogance. Going into a church and and changing its culture is divisive and pointless. The point of a community of faith is to support and love each other and worship God. Not try out the lastest workshop church growth theories.

I have attended Richland Hills for a long time. They do lots of good things. They do lots of silly unnecessary things as well. But that is what it is to be human. We are all imperfect and fallible, even when we believe the book we base our faith on isn't.

I don't know what to say to people like you Mr. Sublett. I grew up with in a household that believes like you. I parted ways with them because I could no longer find meaning in it. I think a majority of younger people like myself feel the same way. Your way of belief is dying out, just as the culture that created it is. The good news for you, if you choose to see it this way, is the Baby boomer inspired consumer church phenom is on its way out as well. Mark my words, another generation or so, the huge temples of excess that mark the suburban landscape will be empty. Lucado, Shelby, Cope and the like will be footnotes in history, replaced by the next big thing.

Brian
From a loving and very concerned sister in Christ, greetings to all who may read this. May God bless you with understanding and peace.

First, let me say that I do fully understand and sympathize with anyone who believes that their church is turning away from Christ. An occurence of that sort would be truly tragic.

Now, this message is not really a response to the above, but I didn't know how to post any other way. This message is for all of the people who will read this website and be confused by the apparent lack of Christianity dispayed by some of the "Christians" on this page, especially the unbelievers.

For the record, the responder who noted several Biblical examples of musical worship including instruments was completely accurate. If you read anywhere on this site something that conflicts, please email me and I will be happy to provide you (free of charge) with a copy of the Bible so that you can read and determine for yourself where the truth really lies. The best way to clear up differences of this sort is simply to study the Bible for yourself, and not just take other people's word for it. David sang and played his instrument before the Lord. Not only was the Lord pleased, he took care to make sure that David's psalms ("songs") are included in the Bible. David was also described many times as being a man after God's own heart. Please read for yourself and judge the truth.

The decision not to use a piano (the original debated instrument) in the south was the direct result of lower income. It does not now, nor has it ever, had anything to do with Biblical principles or doctrine, no matter what anyone else says. The "decision" not to use a piano (now any instrument) has become a sore point, usually among elderly members of any given congregation. Our own church is going through this debate currently, but our elders have decided to attempt to maintain the unity of the body by declining instruments at this time. For their reasoning, please read the book of Romans in the Bible, especially the part about the stronger and weaker brother. The gist of it is that the stronger brother is called not to tempt the weaker brother with something that might challenge his faith. The stronger brother, instead, should study with the weaker brother until he comes to a stronger faith by a fuller understanding of scripture and God's will.

Moving right along, regretfully, it was a prevalent belief among many churches of Christ in previous years that members of the named "church of Christ" were the only people on earth, throughout time, eligible of going to heaven. This also promoted the name "the One True Church," and many churches of Christ still find it difficult to attract new members because of this arrogant presumption. Thankfully, if you are interested in finding a loving and accepting church of Christ today, you will probably have more success than you may be led to believe by the loud-voiced denunciations of certain few members. We members who agree with Jesus that ALL PEOPLE are desired by God have been trying for years to stamp out that nasty distinction we inherited from our older relatives. I personally believe that it is not for me, or anyone, to claim to know the mind of God. The only thing I know is that if God is willing to love me, a dreadful sinnner, I am absolutely certain that He is willing to love everyone else as well. It is not for us to judge, and many churches of Christ are coming around on this point.

Please don't believe that all Christians routinely research satanic rituals and demonic language the way Ken seems to have done. We do not all use that kind of language in reference to things or people we don't happen to care for. The correct mode of confronting a brother who sins against you is detailed in the Bible. This kind of evil language is not, and should never be, prevalent in the church.

Also, note that when I use the term "the church," I am referring to any body of believers in Christ, not specifically the church of Christ, which is just one of many denominations. I am personally a member of the church of Christ because I believe that our particular church follows closely the teachings of the Bible. As mentioned in another post, churches of Christ are not affiliated with each other. (for example, we don't have popes or bishops, we don't report to any type of governing body or organization)

Finally, just let me say one last thing about division in the church. If you read these posts all the way through, as I just have, you may be struck by the notion that the people attempting the reform sound to be, for the most part, very angry. I do not presume to know the minds of all 19 people signatory to that list; however, I would judge that if a person sounds angry and resentful, then they probably are angry and resentful. Ken has stated more than once that his church was "stolen" by people he describes in various unflattering ways. He is absolutely right! In a way, his church was stolen, but not in the way he represents. He disagreed with the decisions of the elders, forgetting apparently that Jesus called us to pray for and submit to those in authority; and he decided to do something about it, something hateful and cruel. I noticed also that the more responses came in against him, the more agitated he apparently became. You'll need to understand how passionate church members can become in their disagreements, and if you don't currently attend church, please don't let this stop you. When we believe something wholeheartedly, as Ken does, we often become irrational and will defend our opinion long past the point at which it has been proven false. In several years, when he goes back and reads over his comments, I am sure that he will feel acutely embarrased for using such hateful, even demonic, language about his brothers and sisters in Christ. Just in case my email address doesn't appear here, you may contact me personally with any questions, especially requests for Bibles, at janderin@sbcglobal.net.

To those at the Richland Hills church, please accept my condolences for the rift in your body. We are currently trying to prevent a smaller rift, and even that effort is extremely painful. It is my hope and prayer that God will sustain you and your leaders in courage and faith during this hard time.

Grace and peace be with you,
Erin
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