Smith Springs, Nashville (Part II)

Smith Springs, Nashville (Part II)

Joined: March 9th, 2002, 4:18 pm

September 14th, 2004, 4:35 pm #1

A response from the archives at: <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 8464535</a" target="_new">http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 8464535</a>

Name Calling September 13 2004, 8:17 PM


Dear J.D.,

I have been on this site and have read many documents posted by Ken and others( for and against) for nearly 3 months. I have conservatively put in 70 hours to research in those 3 months. I don't know about you JD but I went to a church of Christ high school and attended David Lipscomb College. I have learned more about the Bible, Religions and Biblical history in 3 short months than in 7 years of schooling.

I took a detour in my adult life that led me to a wordly walk that was not at all Christian. During this time, the coc has gone through some dramatic changes. Coming back I could see things with a fresh pair of eyes and it does not look so different from the ungodly life I walked. It is probably harder for those that stayed in to see the dramatic changes. That is normal. I am in the restaurant business. It is hard for me to see the filth of my restaurants while I am there day in and day out. Once I leave for a short while, I come back with a fresh pair of peepers and can see the filth. Not that my restaurant is actually filthy, I can just see things more clearly.

JD, you started your response to me by calling me Willy. Even after I signed my name. I am not afraid to let you know who I am. I understand that the moderators of this site allow some flexability as long as you do not hide behind an alias. Is this where you have chosen to begin calling me names?

When I first began reading on this site, I did not understand much of what has been written. The more I read, the more I learn. It has been absolutely more profitable to me for Ken and others to begin at the beginning rather than starting at the middle. After a few times I get it and can scroll down to the meat of what is new. If you have ever trained anyone; repetition, repetition, repetition. If I have had any questions about a subject matter that I do not quite understand, I have written Ken personally and have received a response with an answer within a day or two. I admire directness. Do not skirt the issues and candy coat it for me.

I do not wish to have a "relationship" with you that begins with name calling. There are others besides myself that have learned much from this forum. I am sure that I could also learn from you. Contextual scriptural and or historical facts will suffice with me. I am not into the "I know, that I know,that I know" FEELINGS that I get from charismatic worshippers. I studied biology, physics and chemistry and things have to follow certain paths for me to accept them as truths.

I would like to suggest that you read some Bible archaeology, Egyptian/Roman history and some of the Greek scholars. This will give you some insight to the times and events that occurred during the time of the Bible writers. Will I ever be as well read as Ken Sublett, Donnie Cruz, Dr Crump, And Joe McKnight and many others on this forum? Probably not. I can only narrow the gap of my ignorance.

JD, I wish you all the best in your search for all truths. If you find any blatant lies and have the documentation to prove it please feel free to share it with us. I will be able to sleep better if you can prove these men wrong. There is so much more fun I could be having right now.

Best Regards,

Wil Montero
Last edited by Donnie.Cruz on October 18th, 2008, 5:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kenneth Sublett
Kenneth Sublett

September 22nd, 2004, 7:22 pm #2

I intended to look at John 6's statement "as many as" and do a quick rebuttal to David Lawrence's claim that AS MANY does not mean AS MANY as God calls or invites but ONLY those predestinated. "God would have all be saved" DOES NOT mean "all" but ONLY those predestinated. Jesus did not die for the sins of the WORLD but only those predestinated to be saved by that sacrifice. But, Paul and Peter lay down some MARKS so that you don't have to wonder in amazement at just HOW David first learned that HE was predestinated and those who teach what the Bible teaches about baptism ARE NOT. These MARKS are easy. Those who can confess that God was in Christ reconciling the WORLD to Himself have A mark. Luther, Calvin, the Campbells and the Bible lay down BAPTISM as a MARK. You can be SURE that you are saved by external SIGNS which others cannot dismiss. IF predestination is true then BAPTISM is the supernatural sign. If God has ELECTED or INVITED, CALLED and INSTRUCTED us AND we have been CALLED OUT then we have assurance but never beyond our obedience to God's Commands. "Now I know" spoken by God to Abraham was God BLINKING supernatural knowledge until the KNOWING was demonstrated.

Anyway, I got enmeshed in John 6 and then John 5 and was IN WORSHIP as I had to GIVE HEED to the rich instruction which ANY disciple will look for. One cannot be a disciple by yanking one statement out of John 6--as Calvinists ALWAYS yank. Being OVERWHELMED I finally decided to take a small bite which proves PREDESTINATION to David Lawrence:

<font color=red>NO MAN can come to me,
  • except the Father which hath sent me
    DRAW him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Jn.6:44
</font>Before letting John clear up David's confusion, I am forced to do some "streams of consciousness" as taught to me by Paul. The word DRAW in Hebrew is:
  • <font color=blue>Mashak (h4900) maw-shak'; a prim. root; to draw, used in a great variety of applications (includ. to SOW, to SOUND, to prolong, to develop, to march, to remove, to delay, to be tall, etc.): - draw (along out), continue, defer, extend, forbear, *give, handle, make (pro-, sound) long, SOW, SCATTER, stretch out.

    Thus saith the Lord, The people which were left of the sword found GRACE in the wilderness; even Israel, when I WENT to cause him to REST. Jer 31:2
    • The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yea, I have loved thee with an everlasting love: therefore with LOVINGKINDNESS have I drawn thee. Jer 31:3
    </font>
God does not CALL people to be LOST just to prove to mere earthlings that HE is God and they are NOT. As God IS SPIRIT, so God IS LOVE. Therefore, He calls people to Himself as God the Father to be GIVEN to God the Son because we DO NOT deal with God on His infinite level. God's METHOD has always been LOVE as illustrated by the Son dying on the cross for those who were crucifying Him. Can a little embryo be more evil that those who murdered Him? God limits Himself because LOVE demands FREE WILL. Therefore, it was inconsistent with free will to PREDESTINATE and just save everyone WITHOUT the cross. However, God knew that with FREE WILL the only thing which would DRAW people to be LIFTED UP was to "tabernacle" in flesh and DIE for even those certainly LOST. This is how God is GLORIFIED: "Let this MIND be in YOU" just like Christ Who WAS GOD became like us to DRAW us.

Hosea speaks of God CALLING Israel out of Egypt. They were part of the AS MANY as were called. However, the other prophets make it clear that God fulfilled His prophecy AND in effect rescued the Egyptians from the Israelites who were just giving God a bad name in Egypt. There was not one Israelite worthy of being saved and we can conclude that not one was PREDESTINATED to anything but rescue by PURE GRACE.
  • <font color=blue>WHEN Israel was a child, then I LOVED him, and CALLED my son out of Egypt. Hos 11:1 [Jesus would be the FAITHFUL anti-type]

    As they CALLED them, so they WENT from them: they sacrificed unto Baalim, and burned incense to graven images Hos 11:2.

    I TAUGHT Ephraim also to GO, taking them by their arms; but they knew not that I healed them. Hos 11:3</font>
God CALLED and TAUGHT Israel to GO:
  • <font color=blue>Lamad (h3925) law-mad'; a prim. root; prop. to goad, i. e. (by impl.) to teach (the rod being an Oriental incentive): - [un-] accustomed, * diligently, expert, instruct, learn, skilful, teach (-er, - ing).

    I DREW them with cords of a man, with BANDS of LOVE: and I was to them as they that TAKE OFF the yoke on their jaws, and I laid meat unto them. Hos 11:4

    He shall not return to the land of Egypt; But the Assyrian shall be his king, Because they refused to repent. Hos 11:5NKJ

    And the sword shall abide on his cities, and shall consume his branches, and devour them, because of their own counsels. Hos 11:6

    And my people are bent to backsliding from me: though they CALLED them to the most High, NONE at all would EXALT him. Hos 11:7</font>
Now, God CALLED and TAUGHT Israel out of Egypt. When God CALLS He INSTRUCTS people what to do. SURE, God is as smart as we are! When Moses felt total lostness he sounded like a modern PREDESTINATOR. He told the people to STAND STILL and see the Glory of God. If God IS glorious then surely if we just WATCH He will do what He told US to do. God did not believe Moses: He asked, "Whence your whiney piney heart: RAISE your hand and MARCH into the sea." Sure, God saved them by FAITH but refusing to OBEY told God that they had NO FAITH.

God CALLS and "INDOCTRINATES" and gives LOVE of self-sacrifice as the INCENTIVE which is the ONLY thing that will DRAW us to God. If we are not overwhelmingly CALLED or DRAWN to the impalement, death, burial, regeneration and resurrection of Jesus the Christ then WE have NOT been CALLED and there is no way we could boast about being PREDESTINATED. Rejecting baptism is rejecting the COUNSEL of God which is rejecting the CALLING or ELECTING means of God.

<font color=red>It is written in the prophets,
  • And they shall be ALL TAUGHT of God.
</font>
  • <font color=blue>Didaktos (g1318) did-ak-tos'; from 1321; (subj.) instructed or (obj.) communicated by teaching: - taught, which . . . teacheth. </font>
When God GIVETH children to the SON, the word is similar to being TAUGHT:
  • <font color=blue>Didomi (g1325)... bring forth, commit, deliver, make, minister or utter </font>

    <font color=red>Every man therefore that hath HEARD,
    [ALL WHO ARE TAUGHT]
    ..and hath LEARNED of the Father,
    COMETH unto me. Jn.6:45 </font>
This is within the power of EVERY MAN but it does not mean that all who are called will remain faithful. For instance, we know that it also means EVERY WOMAN who has been CALLED has been TAUGHT and therefore has--as the first order of instruction--learned that the same YAHWEH who called Israel out of Egypt to give them potential REST is the FATHER of the Son in Jesus Christ as certainly as Christ the Spirit was the ROCK or source of Life.

MANY shall be called. Many means the TOTAL POPULATION to which you have access. Many are called but FEW are chosen. All of the evidence proves that God PREDESTINATED the call of Israel out of Egypt. He CALLED them which includes TEACHING them. He ELECTED them by INVITING them. And yet we are told that they DID NOT enter into God's REST. Moses wanted them to be saved BY FAITH ONLY but God said: "Raise your hands and march into the watery tomb" which means DEATH. How could you possibly think of BURYING a person who is already ALIVE by faith alone?

God calls by the GOSPEL and that is why PREACHING means to GO to those who have not heard the gospel and been DISCIPLED to Christ Who intends to be the ONLY Teacher when we "teach that which has been taught." It is not to the Glory of an infinite Being to think that He was too busy to fill in the blanks and had to await Augustine who DEFINITELY does not preach Synod of Dort neo-Calvinism. People have my total respect if they have examined the Bible and do not believe it. However, Christianity for these 2,000 years has been defined by the Bible as sole authority (Yes, Calvin said that). If you claim to be a Christian, take the pay, do not believe it and teach that WHOSOEVER WILL does not mean WHOSOEVER WILL then you have a serious CONFLICT with God.

One KEY TO THE KINGDOM is that you MUST believe that God is the FATHER of all that is good and therefore He must be accepted as a FATHER. A father doesn't put a deadly viper into a child asking for food! But, if the child is predestinated as shown in the pagan gods who WERE evil and saw humankind as a "labor saving device" to be enslaved in field an temple, the God is REPUDIATED as a father. A father's love is UNCONDITIONAL until the time when the child "finds" themselves. And when they GLORIFY father to others it is not HE GAVE ME STUFF but He/she loved me unconditionally.

The FATHER did not hatch the son by sexual practices: the SON Jesus identifies His nature as "speaking what I hear from the FATHER" whom He said was with him and in him. A SON is defined as "promoting the father's name." A SON is not a bastard but EVEN bastards are usually loved unconditionally. I just squirm all over when I think that people believe that they can GLORIFY God by making Him INFERIOR to the Babylon elohim or prototypes who create evil.

There is much more in John 5 and 6: I will keep working on both and post something shortly.

Ken Sublett
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Trace
Trace

September 23rd, 2004, 5:41 pm #3

A response from the archives at: <a href="http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 8464535</a" target="_new">http://www.network54.com/Forum/message? ... 8464535</a>

Name Calling September 13 2004, 8:17 PM


Dear J.D.,

I have been on this site and have read many documents posted by Ken and others( for and against) for nearly 3 months. I have conservatively put in 70 hours to research in those 3 months. I don't know about you JD but I went to a church of Christ high school and attended David Lipscomb College. I have learned more about the Bible, Religions and Biblical history in 3 short months than in 7 years of schooling.

I took a detour in my adult life that led me to a wordly walk that was not at all Christian. During this time, the coc has gone through some dramatic changes. Coming back I could see things with a fresh pair of eyes and it does not look so different from the ungodly life I walked. It is probably harder for those that stayed in to see the dramatic changes. That is normal. I am in the restaurant business. It is hard for me to see the filth of my restaurants while I am there day in and day out. Once I leave for a short while, I come back with a fresh pair of peepers and can see the filth. Not that my restaurant is actually filthy, I can just see things more clearly.

JD, you started your response to me by calling me Willy. Even after I signed my name. I am not afraid to let you know who I am. I understand that the moderators of this site allow some flexability as long as you do not hide behind an alias. Is this where you have chosen to begin calling me names?

When I first began reading on this site, I did not understand much of what has been written. The more I read, the more I learn. It has been absolutely more profitable to me for Ken and others to begin at the beginning rather than starting at the middle. After a few times I get it and can scroll down to the meat of what is new. If you have ever trained anyone; repetition, repetition, repetition. If I have had any questions about a subject matter that I do not quite understand, I have written Ken personally and have received a response with an answer within a day or two. I admire directness. Do not skirt the issues and candy coat it for me.

I do not wish to have a "relationship" with you that begins with name calling. There are others besides myself that have learned much from this forum. I am sure that I could also learn from you. Contextual scriptural and or historical facts will suffice with me. I am not into the "I know, that I know,that I know" FEELINGS that I get from charismatic worshippers. I studied biology, physics and chemistry and things have to follow certain paths for me to accept them as truths.

I would like to suggest that you read some Bible archaeology, Egyptian/Roman history and some of the Greek scholars. This will give you some insight to the times and events that occurred during the time of the Bible writers. Will I ever be as well read as Ken Sublett, Donnie Cruz, Dr Crump, And Joe McKnight and many others on this forum? Probably not. I can only narrow the gap of my ignorance.

JD, I wish you all the best in your search for all truths. If you find any blatant lies and have the documentation to prove it please feel free to share it with us. I will be able to sleep better if you can prove these men wrong. There is so much more fun I could be having right now.

Best Regards,

Wil Montero
Your responder from 9-8-04 (on the adjacent Smith Springs installments) asks if Engedi is really just not about Predestination. Well he's got it half right: it's about Predestination ALONE. Any other option gets you lovingly(?) labeled as a humanist or free-willer.

Hallelujah, at least someone is putting up warning signs about this so-called ministry and their true agenda. According to web messages sent to Engedi supporters several weeks ago, Engedi is now having to GIVE away some of its tape series (probably because so few people in the Church of Christ are willing to pay good money for such, and the Presbyterians already believe the stuff), but here's Doctor David L.'s own words from one of his tapes, allegedly an unbiased view of early church history. He's speaking about a book that is dear to him written by the by the Catholic priest, Augustine, whom he refers to as a saint.:
"When you come down to it, what makes the ultimate and final difference between an individual being saved or not - he said, rests with divine predestination. He made it clear: it rests with God predestination of that group. The number of saints is fixed and is ordained by divine wisdom. Yes, we make choices but in the last analysis we are who we are because of the grace of God and because of the divine decree that was determined before the foundation of the world."

This would just seem to be a general observation of history were it not for these words and personal thelogical bias that the good spin-Doctor prefaces this quote with:
"it presents a very cohesive theology based very squarely on the teachings of the apostle Paul."

He fails to mention, incidentally, the many ways it conflicts with many teachings of John, Peter, and Jesus himself.

So when you cut through the analytical banter, their living stream is really just another stagnant roadside pool or runoff from the dark Middle Ages: PREDESTINATION ALONE. People with some control issues are easily charmed by these teachings, according to many who have studied it.

That's what all this fuss is about brethren and this is their view of the plan of salvation: we are all little more than lifeless cheese-cakes in some celestial silent aution.

When all's said and done the sentiments and purposes of this ministry are in agreement with typical Reformed authors like R.K. McGregor Wright: "God never had the slightest intention of saving everyone. That is what the doctrine of election means in the first place: God chose some, but not all."(NO PLACE FOR SOVEREIGNTY: WHAT'S WRONG WITH FREEWILL, book; pp.131-132)
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Anon.
Anon.

September 29th, 2004, 5:54 pm #4

I think I've heard this same tape you are referring to. If I'm not mistaken, another of Saint Augustine's permises, which Mr. Lawrence concurs with, is that HUMAN REASON CANNOT POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND DIVINE TRUTH.

Apparently, since we are born with no spiritual faculties, though we are created in the image of God himself(James 3:4), the Bible is in some type of spiritual code that the average man on the street, or fisherman, cannot possibly comprehend unless God gives him one of the secret decoder rings, possibly something similar to the one Joseph Smith claimed to have had. So evidently Paul was mistaken in Romans 1:19,20 when he wrote, "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitites - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Also, it seems that Romans 1:21-28 has it backwards where it says "they knew God" but "did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he (God) gave them over to a depraved mind." EnGedi says depravity begins at birth for every newborn when they inherit Adam's sin (See Engedi webpage, Short Studies, Sin).

And finally, we (non-reformers) are merely taking the verse out of context in Romans 2:11 when Paul says that "God does not show favoritism."

So who should we believe Saint Paul's inspired words or Saint Augustine's
theology?
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Wil Montero
Wil Montero

September 29th, 2004, 10:47 pm #5


I was beginning to wonder if I had the mental capacity to "understand" the Bible. I have been told on numerous occasions I cannot discern the truth because I was not "indwelt with the Holy Spirit" represented by speaking in tongues, miracles of healing, blah, blah....

Thanks for the scriptural support. Now I can read a little more. I'm no scholar, but far from being a dummy.

Wil
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JD
JD

September 30th, 2004, 3:36 am #6

Wil,

Do you not feel that you have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?

JD
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Wil Montero
Wil Montero

October 1st, 2004, 4:34 am #7


J.D.

Your question seems almost like a trap. But I will take the bait and answer you honestly. I DO NOT FEEL the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the carnal sense that all charismatics describe. I do not feel that I have to conjure up an emotional recital to get "Him" into my presence. I DO, however feel that I have a closer relationship with GOD when I diligently search him through His one and true Word and through prayer. This happens best when I pick up the Holy Bible and share the message with others.

I do my best to spend at least an hour a day but, usually I read 10 hours per week. I never realized how vital a Strong's dictionary was in understanding the languages in which the Bible was written. Of course, a dictionary is not what one needs to understand the commands in which one is to be saved. I seem to need it more when it comes to defending and explaining my faith.

Do you feel indwelt by the Holy Spirit? How? What do you do to get this "feeling?" What other outwardly manifestations occur when the Holy Spirit reveals himself to you? Tell me what exactly I am missing out on.

When the spirit of Truth is revealed through reading it is a good feeling. Usually followed by a feeling of burden to spread the truth. This burden burns deep for my family and friends first.

No long discertation here. Looking forward to your response.

Wil
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anon
anon

October 8th, 2004, 4:50 pm #8

I think I've heard this same tape you are referring to. If I'm not mistaken, another of Saint Augustine's permises, which Mr. Lawrence concurs with, is that HUMAN REASON CANNOT POSSIBLY UNDERSTAND DIVINE TRUTH.

Apparently, since we are born with no spiritual faculties, though we are created in the image of God himself(James 3:4), the Bible is in some type of spiritual code that the average man on the street, or fisherman, cannot possibly comprehend unless God gives him one of the secret decoder rings, possibly something similar to the one Joseph Smith claimed to have had. So evidently Paul was mistaken in Romans 1:19,20 when he wrote, "what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualitites - his eternal power and divine nature - have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Also, it seems that Romans 1:21-28 has it backwards where it says "they knew God" but "did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he (God) gave them over to a depraved mind." EnGedi says depravity begins at birth for every newborn when they inherit Adam's sin (See Engedi webpage, Short Studies, Sin).

And finally, we (non-reformers) are merely taking the verse out of context in Romans 2:11 when Paul says that "God does not show favoritism."

So who should we believe Saint Paul's inspired words or Saint Augustine's
theology?
on engedi's website in the devotional section (which is nothing but their weekly calvinism propaganda) there is a discussion of why people hate God. in part 4, mr. lawrence makes this bold statement: "there exists no example in scripture of anything, animate or inanimate, that successfully resisted the expressed will or the expressed decree of God."

a bold statement indeed, but not dissimilar to our vice-president claiming recently to have never met john edwards previously even though there are press photos showing them sitting side by side at the national prayer breakfast a few months ago. bold statements aren't always true!

so in answer to lawrence let's start with one of the bible's lesser known characters, Jesus!
here's what he says in matthew 23:37: "o jerusalem, jerusalem you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often i have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING."

and Jesus doesn't seem too vague in john 7:17 either: "if anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God." the engedi faction would have us believe that it is appropriate to rewrite that passage to say "if God chooses for anyone to do his will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God!" it's like they've developed some type of spiritual dyslexia, isn't it!

the old testament is also filled with passages that expose lawrence's daring proclamation. how about this bizarre language in malachi 2:2 "if you do not listen and if you do not set your heart to honor my name says the Lord Almighty, i will send a curse upon you and i will curse your blessings. yes i have already cursed them, because you have not set your heart to honor me." so let me get this right, God's cursing his CHOSEN people for not doing what he knew he was not going to give them the ability to do? yeah, that makes no sense.

then in same chapter vs.8 "but you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble, you have violated the covenant with levi" and verse 11 "judah has broken faith." then in chapter 3:7 "ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees."

well at least one section of these scriptures seem to apply to lawrence's teaching: "by your teaching you have caused many to stumble."

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Joe
Joe

October 10th, 2004, 12:16 pm #9

I was beginning to wonder if I had the mental capacity to "understand" the Bible. I have been told on numerous occasions I cannot discern the truth because I was not "indwelt with the Holy Spirit" represented by speaking in tongues, miracles of healing, blah, blah....

Thanks for the scriptural support. Now I can read a little more. I'm no scholar, but far from being a dummy.

Wil
Brother Wil:
Thanks for your comment above about listing me as one of the well read, but it is not true. I am one of the ones the bible says God uses the foolish to confound the wise. In my walk, in the past few years I have come to apperciate the work of the Holy Spirit working in me. This experience leads me to say "While reading the Bible, if the Holy Spirit does not show it to you, you will not get it". You can read it and know what it says, but you will not get it. There is a difference in knowing what it say and getting it. So your first step in studing should began with prayer asking the Holy Spirit to lead and show you. That is His Job you know.
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is denying His work, and the coC has a rich history of Blasphing. I know, I was raised coC, and for years I believed the coC doctrine of Blaspheming. I do not practice that anymore.

To God be the Glory
Joe McKnight
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anon
anon

October 20th, 2004, 11:06 pm #10

on engedi's website in the devotional section (which is nothing but their weekly calvinism propaganda) there is a discussion of why people hate God. in part 4, mr. lawrence makes this bold statement: "there exists no example in scripture of anything, animate or inanimate, that successfully resisted the expressed will or the expressed decree of God."

a bold statement indeed, but not dissimilar to our vice-president claiming recently to have never met john edwards previously even though there are press photos showing them sitting side by side at the national prayer breakfast a few months ago. bold statements aren't always true!

so in answer to lawrence let's start with one of the bible's lesser known characters, Jesus!
here's what he says in matthew 23:37: "o jerusalem, jerusalem you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often i have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, BUT YOU WERE NOT WILLING."

and Jesus doesn't seem too vague in john 7:17 either: "if anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God." the engedi faction would have us believe that it is appropriate to rewrite that passage to say "if God chooses for anyone to do his will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God!" it's like they've developed some type of spiritual dyslexia, isn't it!

the old testament is also filled with passages that expose lawrence's daring proclamation. how about this bizarre language in malachi 2:2 "if you do not listen and if you do not set your heart to honor my name says the Lord Almighty, i will send a curse upon you and i will curse your blessings. yes i have already cursed them, because you have not set your heart to honor me." so let me get this right, God's cursing his CHOSEN people for not doing what he knew he was not going to give them the ability to do? yeah, that makes no sense.

then in same chapter vs.8 "but you have turned from the way and by your teaching have caused many to stumble, you have violated the covenant with levi" and verse 11 "judah has broken faith." then in chapter 3:7 "ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees."

well at least one section of these scriptures seem to apply to lawrence's teaching: "by your teaching you have caused many to stumble."
Point well taken. We recently had a Wednesday night series about the Old Testament prophets. Most all of them had to warn God's CHOSEN NATION of the consequences of a continued pattern of disobeying God's specific, expressed will. Even a casual student of the Word can see this, unless you try to over complicate simple teaching.

Lawrence's background in the extremely legalistic wing of our fellowship, commonly called the Anti movement, makes him very susceptible to extreme legalistic interpretations like those of Calvin. John Calvin, you'll recall, was trained as a LAWYER. One of their more common ploys is to try to turn things completely around in their logic. Dr. David seems to be mastering this tendency with every weekly subject he puts on the web.
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